debra wrote:It looks like the Emperor/King is pouring a vial of water onto the wheel (waterwheel?) the Pope is standing on.

Looks to me like a sceptre, broken in half, the 'vertical' hanging shaft of the sceptre has a cross shape atop it.

Is that moneybag hanging from around the King's neck, or the waist of the Pope?

Ah... I thought the pope was holding it, but I think you are right, it is hanging from the Emperor's neck. Pope Pius II wrote some satyrical poems about his 'mean treatment' at the court of the Emperor - being fed on hard black bread or something like that (referenced by the purse round the neck of the 'miserly' emperor?), can't remember the details exactly...

And...it looks like there's water running into the left side of the boat.

It looks higher on the left than the right, suggesting it is anchored in high waves... Not sure whether it is a ship of state, or ship of salvation, or ship of fool, or...

The text appears to be 'demeo austrie' ~ descend austria? ?

SteveM wrote:And what of the ray of the Sun / Star touching the forehead of the lion - birth of a new king? Heir to the house of Burgundy?

I think the text on the star thingie says 'cometa', it's a comet!

If the figures represent Frederick III and Pius II then there are two 'comet' tales that spring to mind; a comet was said to appear at the birth of Maximilian (who did become 'heir to the house of Burgundy' via marriage! And I think that royally pissed off some potential French claimants?) ; a comet was also said to have appeared at some meeting between Pope and Emperor. But I fear my id of the pope and emperor with particular figures and what I recall of them could be leading me completely astray...

Allegory On The Meeting Of Pope Paul II and Emperor Frederick III

Ulm, 1470 or later.
This is one of four known variations of this image executed in woodblock. (One a reversed copy.)

In late 1468 Frederick III went to Rome to meet with Pope Paul II, in an effort to determine whose influence would determine the crown of Bohemia, and therefore, who should have ascendant power, the Pope or the Emperor. This woodcut illustrates the Emperor's vain struggle to contain Pope Paul's steadily increasing influence north of the Alps. The Pope, in his triple crown, seems to be overpowering the Emperor who holds onto the broken spindle which signifies his loss of control over Bohemia. For Paul II had already excommunicated the King and had crowned his own man, Matthias Corvinus. The Pope stands fast on his ship of state which includes support from the Dukes of Austria and Saxony and the Kings of Poland and Hungary. Two of his enemies, the Dukes of Milan and Naples, are represented by the serpent about his neck.Frederick III, in addition to the Habsburg Empire (represented by the double eagle at upper left), could count on support from the Duke of Burgundy as well as Louis XI of France (the lion and the escutcheon with the fleur-de-lis). Among the other emblems there is the comet at upper right, probably that of autumn 1468, which might have been regarded as a portent.

OP Note:
So there is no mention of the scale that the Pope holds, or the bag.
Gertrude Moakley mentions this image in her book, in her comments on V The Pope card of the Visconte Sforza deck. She states that: "...the Pope and Popess would be thought of as natural enemies of the Emperor since there was constant conflict between Popes and Emperors. Occassionally political cartoons of the time show this in caricature. One shows a snake marked "Duke of Milan" on the back of the Pope's head, while the Pope is wrestling with the Emperor." Her note to this entry goes on to reference the image reproduced in A. M. Hind's "Early Italian Engraving." London, New York 1938-48.

I think that was an excellent job of interpretation overall!
Interesting how many levels one can see in action here, from the general to the very specific.

OnePotato wrote:Allegory On The Meeting Of Pope Paul II and Emperor Frederick III

OP Note:
So there is no mention of the scale that the Pope holds, or the bag.

Thanks OP : given the title I was able to find a couple of references online:


http://www.britishmuseumshoponline.org/invt/cda00158141

Allegory of Pope Paul II and the Emperor Frederick III; the Pope, with a triple tiara and the neck attacked by a serpent, and the Emperor, with a crown and a money-bag suspended from his neck, grasping each other by the waist, resting on the mast of a ship, on a wheel and on a lion; the Pope holds in his l hand a balance and above this an escutcheon with the three fleur-de-lis and an eagle; the Emperor holds in his r hand a broken spindle attached to the wheel; a comet at the upper l and below a bare trunk of a tree with an escutcheon hanging from a branch; with several inscribed scrolls. c.1470 Engraving"

...the scales I think probably relate to the Pope's (with his alliances) holding the balance of power; the 'comet' (?) is labeled 'Sub saturno i domo ifirmitatis' (an infirm house beneath Saturn?). It is clearly here a two headed eagle here rather than the two headed cockeral looking bird in our example:P Is the text in Italian below, can anyone translate it? (something about a sybil as below - use the site zoom funtion to enlarge any section). According the site below the purse signifies the Emperor's 'self-seeking policy' ...


1470. Satirical allegory of the meeting of Pope
Paul II with the Emperor Frederick III during
the winter of 1468-69. According to the 'inscription,
the reference is to a prophecy by the Roman
Sibyl 'found on a great stone' and dating from
the year 19 B.C. The King of Bohemia's broken
staff, caught in the wheel of the Roman Patriarch,
is an allusion to the recent excommunication of
George Podebrad, one of the matters discussed at
the meeting. The purse hung round the Emperor's
neck symbolises his self-seeking policy.
http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=97884081

O rats. Do I have to learn something about history, then?

debra wrote:O rats. Do I have to learn something about history, then?

Not necessarily.
As I mentioned earlier, there are several levels.
Among them:
It is a picture of two guys wrestling.
It is a picture of the struggle for power between the offices of Pope and Emperor.
It is a picture of a particular meeting between two specific people struggling for political influence in a particular region.

From this distant perspective, one's particular knowledge of the details will help determine what one's level of understanding is.
A lot of old pictures are like that.

Thanks Steve, for the reversed version in the BM!!
It's an engraving, and much more visually refined, yet the story is the same.

Ok, I guess there are no further comments on the last one, so moving along...

This round will be in two parts.

Start with this one:
Basel, 1495-1500
Includes green, brown, rose, olive.

Is this a little chalice inside a larger one--the larger like a reliquary maybe?

Also I see two angels

Is that Greek pi on the larger cup?
The symbol at the base I don't recognize.

Seems like a broken Templar cross at the bottom, and the Angels holding a representation of New Jerusalem.

So the inner part is the new Holy Sanctum? The descent of the New Jerusalem?

Last call, one beer, two angels?