We have any crank at the Visconti card.
Days ago you asked me about drastical chnages done by the French engravers as I suggested,once tarot was known in France.
Well,here you have one,the presence of the crank,that nobody moves.

EUGIM wrote:We have any crank at the Visconti card.
Days ago you asked me about drastical chnages done by the French engravers as I suggested,once tarot was known in France.
Well,here you have one,the presence of the crank,that nobody moves.

Well, it doesn't mean that it is French. It could be Italian or German or anywhere else that the iconography happened.

So... you're suggesting that the Wheel without someone at the crank is unique to the Tarot de Marseille? Someone (you???) would have to spend time to research that, and build up a case to prove it. As others have said... the allegory is to the Wheel of Fortune, not to Fortune herself... the meaning is understandable without the need to have the figure of Fortune turning the wheel.

I'm not sure what you're after here... If you are trying to say that there is unique iconography that only appears in the Tarot de Marseille, I'd say that that is possible to spend time and go through each card and look for matches... but that doesn't prove anything at all about where the Tarot de Marseille was made. You have to show that the iconography is unique to France and doesn't appear in other countries (like the wings on Temperance which we found early in Italy).

So, maybe you can do that with this image or others in the Tarot de Marseille. It's up to you to do the research (since it is you trying to make the point) and find other images that match the image in the Tarot de Marseille and show that they can only be found in France before you have any case to say that the iconography of the Tarot de Marseille is in any way "French". To simply say that it is unique doesn't prove its origin.

And if it turns out the Tarot de Marseille is French, I'm perfectly fine with that. I simply don't think we know where it came from, although I still lean towards Italy.

Robert:
Only findings art examples as you do or JMD also,that does not validate the tarot iconography.
Because he pointe is that the crank is not there.
I could send to you somes alchemicals images that shows the crank moving by an Angel for give your or JMD the reason,but are conceptual arguments instead of facts as we dont see at the card.
But now,if you ahead don t think that the presence or absence of the crank is irrelevant,it s all okay.

*As the song said (remember ? ) : "One for you,one for me "

Cheers caro amicci !

EUGIM wrote:Robert:
Only findings art examples as you do or JMD also,that does not validate the tarot iconography.
Because he pointe is that the crank is not there.
I could send to you somes alchemicals images that shows the crank moving by an Angel for give your or JMD the reason,but are conceptual arguments instead of facts as we dont see at the card.
But now,if you ahead don t think that the presence or absence of the crank is irrelevant,it s all okay.

*As the song said (remember ? ) : "One for you,one for me "

Cheers caro amicci !

Hi Eugim,

I agree that comparing iconography is interesting, and often leads to finding interesting details that help give us a better understanding of the chronology of the tarot and of the iconography in general. What I object to is showing an image and saying that because it is different it must be an example of how the French changed it. So far, as far as know, there is no iconography in the Tarot de Marseille that points to it being specifically "French". I think that if there are examples that would be very interesting to know about. I also think that the image of the wheel with the crank and no one there is interesting.. and perhaps time should be spent to see if other examples of it can be found outside of the Tarot de Marseille. But until that is done, there is no point to be made really other than to say that this is something that, without any research, seems to be unique, and it is impossible to say where the origin of the specific image comes from.

What I'm really saying is... if you think this is worth following... follow it and see what you can find!

* Well,as you know,Irish do it better...

-One can find a lot of the Renaissance art examples.
I have after 25 years of teaching Art here in Buenos Aires,somewhat of three or four wagons of art books...
From Giotto to Paolo Veronese of course we (and I said "we" ) can find many too many examples,but I think all are conceptual,visual parallels,so nothing supported on the cards of the Tarot de Marseille.
-Just for see as an example that I am honest with you (and with JMD ),see this image that Adam Mc Lean has in his wonderful site (coloured by him ) :

So the hunt would be to find images that do match the Tarot de Marseille, and to see where they are from! If none can be found, then it doesn't help to learn the origin of the Tarot de Marseille. If they can be found, then it would show where it would be possible that the Tarot de Marseille might have developed. Yes, a lot of work indeed.

So,viewing the italians decks ans the french Tarot de Marseille decks,I think that the first have a clear Renaissance Art line and the Tarot de Marseille have a clearest Romanesque-Gothic Art line.
Say it in more plane words : Tarot de Marseille iconography is Medieval
Now I remember the Umberto Eco book regarding the medieval Art topic " Arte e belleza nell estetica Medievale "
(Art and beauty of the Medieval aesthetic "
There he fill the form to support tha France has any link with Renaissance,because was "screwed" to Gothic.
And I just think and believe too he is not a dummie...

The JMD examples of the french Cathedrals show that.

France "jumped" the Renaissance.

*Don t you think it ?

Well Robert,as Marvin said :

Let s get it on ...

EUGIM wrote:So,viewing the italians decks ans the french Tarot de Marseille decks,I think that the first have a clear Renaissance Art line and the Tarot de Marseille have a clearest Romanesque-Gothic Art line.
Say it in more plane words : Tarot de Marseille iconography is Medieval
Now I remember the Umberto Eco book regarding the medieval Art topic " Arte e belleza nell estetica Medievale "
(Art and beauty of the Medieval aesthetic "
There he fill the form to support tha France has any link with Renaissance,because was "screwed" to Gothic.
And I just think and believe too he is not a dummie...

The JMD examples of the french Cathedrals show that.

France "jumped" the Renaissance.

*Don t you think it ?

I think that's a question worth discussing, but not in the Wheel thread... so I'll start a new thread:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=174

Sorry EUGIM. I don't think anyone is buying into your idea here.
The boys at Conver & Co. were nice enough to write an explanation right on the card so people wouldn't get confused. It says,

La Rove De FORTVNA

She has clearly been named, thus is present in name and intent. If they didn't want the card to be understood as the popular allegory of Fortuna's Wheel, they would have called the cards something else. Maybe La Rove De Monkeys and Asses!



R