Re: Trumps VI- XIII

#41
mikeh wrote:What you present is the same group as Ross's, Huck's, but with a different story-line for the Devil card. That the Devil is an altered Prudence, mediated by the snake as a symbol for both, the Visconti viper and a French effort to humiliate the Sforza, strikes me as implausible, even for the Tarot de Marseille. Or do you still defend it? I assume not, since you say "The state of research had been then a little different than today". It's the story-line that matters most, I think, especially a story-line that would work somewhat earlier than 1500. That's why I'd like to see Ross's.
In 2004 it was suspected, that the decks, which include the Visconti viper would be a deck possibly made for Bona of Savoy in 1468.
Nowadays it's suggested, that this was made in 1512.

The Boiardo had only a very vague date, 1461-1494. Nowadays it's from around January 1487 ... it wasn't really expected, that it might have been so late.

As we had more or less only early material from the courts, it was a suspicion, that the lower parts of society didn't participate in the use of the cards. Since Franco Pratesi's researches it's clear, that this lower (or middle class) market had it's place, at least since 1449 (those, who could pay 9-12 soldi for a deck). That's before 1457, when we've clearly: "70 cards in Ferrara".
Earlier it was suspected, that the change from an experimental phase to mass production was the essential reason, why a 22-version could push aside earlier used game structures like decks with 14 or 16 trumps. Nowadays we must state Trionfi had a middle-class market and a likely next development to really low-priced decks around 1462-65. Earlier 1477 in Bologna was a great date, as we had signs of mass production then (and cause of this, it was an idea, that at least in 1477 Trionfi should have had 22 special cards). This document meanwhile has lost its big value, as many other documents have appeared, and there#s no guarantee, that this form existed in 1477).

Earlier there was no idea, that decks with 4x14+20-structure might have had a longer existence. Nowadays that's not clear, at least in my opinion.

Earlier Florence had been more or less a big nothing. Nowadays we know with security, that it should have had a big role in the development.

Earlier Chess as an influencing factor was only suspected in the case of the Cary-Yale, nowadays there's also the Charles VI and a lot of other researched data.

The context between Michelino deck and the deck of John of Rheinfelden was not given.

A lot of things are different now.

Nonetheless the distribution of the 3 virtues on 8-11-14 in the Marseille order is significant.

Ross states:
"In the case of the Tarot, the personification of a moral principle like Death is clearly in the middle part (I consider the Devil to be the end of the middle section, on the strength of the proverbial phrase "death and hell"; the part Fortune to Devil is the "Fate" (fatal) or "bad things" part of the moral section, with Virtue or "good things" as the first part).

It doesn't matter how the virtues are ordered, just that they are a group. Clearly the author of the game chose an order, and the original players learned it as such, but I can't believe it had any deep meaning."
He sees the positions of the virtues as not significant. Is this better, or just resignation?

We had the observation (inside "Fama Sol" and "Folengo's Triperuno"), that ...

1-5
6 Love
7 Chariot with Chastity
8-12
13 Death
14 Fama (Sol)
15-16
17-18-19 Star-Moon-Sun as Time and 20 Judgment as "end of time"
21 Eternity (World)

... that all 6 Trionfi elements of Petrarca appear "somehow" sorted:

6 and 7, at the end of 1-7
13 and 14, at the end of 8-14
17-18-19-20-21, at the end of 15-21
... connected to the curiosity, that Father Time (Star as zodiac, Moon and Sun make the calendar and so "make the time") returned to his "Time Imperium" on number 9.

In this perspective Death isn't the big mark, as Ross designed it.

Well, this is only for the order of the Marseille Tarot. But we know, that for the invention of the Trionfi decks, the Petrarca poem played a deciding role.
It's likely not, that the begin knew 21 trumps or 22 special cards, but a later interpreter of the development might have found this interesting solution.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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