Re: The meaning of the first six trumps

#62
Ross Caldwell wrote
The second way is from something Piscina said about Princes needing to taking pleasure in Fools and the like (there it is, page 17; the Italian word is "Buffoni"). I remembered it as one of the explanations he offered for the presence of these two under the Emperors and Popes - I suppose it could be taken that way. These entertainers could be taken as the lowest in the employ of the Imperial or Papal courts, the lowest "members" of the court, and as such - and good figures to have in a game to boot - they could represent the lowest in the iconographic synecdoche, with the princes as the highest (sort of like the two robes in the Roman memento mori mosaic we like so much, with the butterfly).
Piscina says the Bagat is the Innkeeper, page 14 (Italian) and 15 (English). I won't attempt the English, as I don't understand its relationship to the Italian, but the Italian (http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Piscina_Discorso_2) seems clear enough: "al Bagato che è l' Hoste"--my guess, "to the Bagato, who is the Innkeeper". I quoted the whole passage and discussed the English translation a few posts before yours, in this thread. The Innkeeper would not seem to be the performer; he's at the front desk collecting money, or serving drinks and collecting money. There's also a problem, in that passage, of which inn he keeps; it seems to me that the printed translation on p. 15 (the part I quoted) is confused. I'd like your opinion on what I had to say.

Re: Cebetis--and now Alciato and Piscina

#63
mikeh wrote: "Sogliano" would seem to be 3rd person present tense of "sogliare", meaning "to pass or go over the threshold of a door" (http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/florio/search/522c.html), rather than being equivalent to "solevano", imperfect of "solere" and meaning "used to". Also, the rest of the final clause looks to me a little messy. I prefer literal translations unless they make no sense. So for "così il Matto è stato anteposto come figura dell' hosteria al Bagato che è l' Hoste, per signficar ella esser quella famosa Hosteria nella qual la magior parte de gli huomini sogliano andar ad alloggiare" I read:
...so the Fool stands in front as the picture of the Inn of which the Bagato is the Innkeeper, to signify its being that famous Inn in which the majority of the people enter to go to lodge.
If so, he is the innkeeper of the inn where people go now, not the one where they used to go. The Fool is the sign out front--or in my city these days, the guy in the funny outfit waving his sign back and forth on the sidewalk to get my attention--and the Bagato is the Innkeeper of the Inn of which he is the picture, that of the Fool, foolishness. [Added next day: a problem with this translation is the adjective "famosa"; "fama" previously attached to the Inn of the Looking-glass. He would be contradicting what he said earlier. He's allowed to do that, but it requires explaining, e.g. the Inn of the Looking-Glass is no longer as famous as the Inn of the Fool.]

In either translation, the inns are a metaphor for life, which can be lived foolishly, on one side of the street, or prudently, on the other side. The two inns are those of the old Hermes Trismegistus character on the Fanti frontispiece, and--in the alternative translation I offer--that of the dice-rolling Hermes/Thoth next to him. If you choose the trickster Hermes, watch out. Like the Moon in Plutarch's story of the invention of gambling, you could lose some of your light, without help from a Trismegistus, an Agathodemon. But if you do lose, it's in a good cause. In that sense the old man in the Cebetis is not as good an approximation of the Bagat as the dice-roller plus old man in the Fanti. The Cebetis has the positive side, which I do want to emphasize even if it is not as good a fit.

While I'm at it, there are a few more places in the quote, further up, where I had trouble with the translation. One problem is with "voglia" at the beginning of the passage, which is translated as "had preferred". But WordReference says "voglia" is present tense subjunctive. However with the "but for a long time" makes "have preferred" more appropriate. Also, "accadendogli d' ir in viaggio " looks to me like "happening to travel" rather than "when they traveled"; the former is tenseless. And "perduta appresso tutti gl' huomini" looks to me like "lost with all the people", as I don't see "appresso" listed in WordReference as translated by "among". Except for "voglia", these are fine points, I know, but they make the passage more understandable. Also, since we are talking about an attribute of Prudence, I think "Looking-glass" is a more appropriate translation of "Specchio", since it connotes the hand-held thing associated with the virtue. So I get:
all people of every kind, happening to travel, used to lodge first at the inn of the Looking-glass, but for a long time have preferred to go to that of the Fool, more appropriate to their will and their actions. This is why, not without great mystery, we see the Fool in the game of Tarot being depicted in such a way that he looks behind [him] towards a mirror, making fun of the fame of [9] the Looking-glass lost with [in the sense of "dead to"] all the people who once used to go to that inn.
I imagine it as a Matto card like the ones of 17th or early 18th century Piedmont and Lombardy, the ones that sometimes had the French title "Le Fou", where his body is pointed away and to the right but he looks behind him. Piscina says he's looking at a card known for Fame; I can't help wondering it might even be called that. Since the Mirror = prudence, it is either trump 21, now called Prudence/Fame, or it is trump 14, which Alciato called "Fama", a word written on some Belgian Temperance cards, but perhaps here is the last trump in a deck with only 14. I imagine the cards in a circle, so that the last trump is behind the Fool. That's how the card is both zero and also, as in the Steele Sermon, can be the card talked about after the World. Of course all this is speculation. [Added next day: but the last card can't be 14, because Piscina goes on to describe all 22. With the published translation, it's simpler: he's simply looking at the Bagatto, across the street.]

The rest of the translation looks good. But what do I know? Please advise. [Added next day: please note that I made two changes, one at the end of the previous paragraph, and one earlier, regarding "famosa".]
Hello Mike,
I am sorry for the incorrect translation on tarotpedia. I corrected this sentence: "the Fool, being the figure of the inn, has been put before the Bagat, who is the Innkeeper, meaning that famous inn in which most people use to go.".

So, the Fool is the sign of the Inn of the Fool, of which the Bagat is the innkeeper.

“Sogliano” is from solere, present tense subjunctive.

On Tarotpedia I translated “tutti gl' huomini di qualunque sorte si voglia” as “all people of any kind”, a more literal translation: “all men of any kind you want”. A common expression that has become the single word qualsivoglia.

The point of the whole passage is that “the Inn of the Looking-Glass is no longer as famous as the Inn of the Fool”: people once followed Prudence but now they prefer Foolishness.

The translations you propose seem substantially correct to me.

As you have probably noticed, Piscina presents all this as a joke (“parrà da burla”) which he derived from a Comedy ("Gl'Ingannati", English translation here).

Piscina presents three interpretations of the Fool:

1. A guy in a funny dress opening some kind of show. This is the popular interpretation that Piscina rejects.

2. An element in an allegory of life, specifically “the beginning and the end of human life, i.e. childhood and old age. In those ages it somehow seems that people are fools, because they have no wisdom or intelligence”. This is the interpretation that Piscina prefers.

3. The “Ingannati” Inn passage that we discussed. He presents this interpretation even if it will be seen as only a joke, while the previous one is “piena di grande considerazione” (more or less “full of deep meaning”).

Re: The meaning of the first six trumps

#64
Thank you, Marco. A couple more questions. So is Florio mistaken about a verb "sogliere"? (http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/florio/search/522c.html. He actually gives two meanings for it, one irrelevant. Also, would the subjunctive be an appropriate tense in that context? (I have no idea).

In English, it would be more natural to say "that famous inn in which most people use to go to stay", although even that is unnatural, because the "in" wouldn't be there. With Florio's translation, as "enter", the preposition "in" makes sense.

There is also the problem that "the Fool, being the figure of the inn, has been put before the Bagat, who is the Innkeeper, meaning that famous inn in which most people use to go", says that the Innkeeper is that famous inn. E.g., "He went to the same restaurant again this week, meaning the Italian one on the corner." "Meaning" has the sense of "i.e.". Your translation needs more work. I would suggest something more literal, along the lines I have suggested (although I can't fit "use" into that version, without doing violence to either the Italian or the English.)

I cannot see that Piscina means this passage merely as a joke. Here is your translation of the sentence with "parrà da burla" in it:
This [explanation] is ull of great consideration, but I do not want to leave out unmentioned another one, even if it will seem to be a joke.
The sense is, it will seem to be a joke, but really isn't. Later he says "This is why, with great mystery, we see the Fool in the game of Tarot..." etc. "Mystery" here has the sense of "wonder" or "awe", as it was applied then mainly to theatrical pageants about the birth of Christ, the crucifixion, the afterlife, etc. He is asking the reader to take him seriously, although he speaks in a puzzling way.

When he refers to the comedy by the Intronati, he isn't referring to something that is merely a joke. Good comedies teach serious lessons in a pleasant way. In this one, for example, the meals at the one inn might be thought to be good value, because they have "substantials" such as partridges and pullets, with lots of the best Lombard wine ( (http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Gl%27Ingannati); the other innkeeper offers lighter fare, sweetbreads, that is tasty (the old meaning of "delicate") with mountain wine, clearly tastier and healthier (sorry, Marco, but who has ever heard of Lombard wine? I expect it's like wine from Modesto here). It's like having the "monster-burger" at McDonalds vs. a gourmet salad.

Also, Piscina didn't have an earlier account of the the Bagato. The earlier part was just on the Fool. The passage I quoted is his main account of the Bagato.

Also, we have to take into account that Alciato also calls this card "innkeeper". There is no indication that Alciato is joking. Furthermore, he is addressing an international audience, not just people in Pavia. The book was published in Lyon 1444, as I recall. I expect that it was called that there, too, or the publisher would have got upset.

Re: The meaning of the first six trumps

#65
mikeh wrote:Thank you, Marco. A couple more questions. So is Florio mistaken about a verb "sogliere"? (http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/florio/search/522c.html. He actually gives two meanings for it, one irrelevant. Also, would the subjunctive be an appropriate tense in that context? (I have no idea).

In English, it would be more natural to say "that famous inn in which most people use to go to stay", although even that is unnatural, because the "in" wouldn't be there. With Florio's translation, as "enter", the preposition "in" makes sense.

There is also the problem that "the Fool, being the figure of the inn, has been put before the Bagat, who is the Innkeeper, meaning that famous inn in which most people use to go", says that the Innkeeper is that famous inn. E.g., "He went to the same restaurant again this week, meaning the Italian one on the corner." "Meaning" has the sense of "i.e.". Your translation needs more work. I would suggest something more literal, along the lines I have suggested (although I can't fit "use" into that version, without doing violence to either the Italian or the English.)
I never heard of the verb “sogliare”. I have found that it appears in the Vocaboliaro della Crusca, but only as a noun synonym of “soglia”.
sogliare.jpg
(95.26 KiB) Not downloaded yet
"in" is related to "andare": "andare in un'osteria".

Here is a revised translation of the passage. I highlighted the two occurrences of “sogliano” in the passage. Sincerely, my impression is that the meaning is rather clear to you too. I am happy to help with Italian, but I don't see any serious interpretation doubts here.
tutti gl' huomini di qualunque sorte si voglia, accadendogli d' ir in viaggio solevano allogiar prima alla hosteria dello Specchio ma da molto tempo in qua andarsene tutti più voluntieri a quella dil Matto, si come più convenevole, al volere, & alle attioni loro,
all men of any kind you want, happening to go travelling, once used to lodge at the Inn of the Looking Glasss, but since a long time they all more willingly go to that of the Fool, as is more appropriate to their will and their actions.
e per ciò non senza grandissimo mistero vegiamo il Pazzo nel giuoco de Tarocchi esser dipinto a modo che sguardi indietro ad uno specchio beffandosi della fama dello Specchio perduta appresso tutti gl' huomini, ì quali solevano concorrere all' hostaria soa, e perciò in faccia molto gioiosa si rallegra anzi si glorià del credito ch' egli hà, si che tutti gli houmini gli corrono dietro,
This is why, not without the greatest mystery, we see the Fool in the game of Tarot being painted in such a way that he looks behind towards a looking glass, making fun of the fame of the Looking Glass, lost among all men, who once used to go to its inn. This is why, with a very joyous face, he rejoices or better he glories of the credit he has, since all men run behind him.
e lo segue colui che s' addomanda il Bagato in habito di hoste, non senza accorto avedimento, percioche si come le Insegne delle Hostarie sono più presto da Forastieri vedutte che cercano d' allogiare che gl' istessi hosti, & che etiamdio l' insegne sogliano dar buon credito all' hostarie come veggiamo, in quelle de Gigli, Aquile, Falconi, Corone e Re, le quali in tutte le buone e famose Città demonstrano buon alloggiamento,
He is followed by the one that is called the Bagat, in the garb of an innkeeper, not without subtle reasoning, because, as the signs of the Inns are seen by foreigners looking for a lodging before they see the innkeepers themselves, and also as the signs use to give good credit to the inns as we see in those of the Lilies, Eagles, Falcons, Crowns and Kings, that in all good and famous cities show good lodging,
così il Matto è stato anteposto come figura dell' hosteria al Bagato che è l' Hoste, per significar ella esser quella famosa Hosteria nella qual la magior parte de gli huomini sogliano andar ad alloggiare.
in the same way the Fool has been anteponed, as the sign of the inn, to the Bagat, who is the Innkeeper, in order to signify that that is the famous inn in which the greatest part of the men use to go to stay.
I cannot see that Piscina means this passage merely as a joke. Here is your translation of the sentence with "parrà da burla" in it:
This [explanation] is ull of great consideration, but I do not want to leave out unmentioned another one, even if it will seem to be a joke.
The sense is, it will seem to be a joke, but really isn't. Later he says "This is why, with great mystery, we see the Fool in the game of Tarot..." etc. "Mystery" here has the sense of "wonder" or "awe", as it was applied then mainly to theatrical pageants about the birth of Christ, the crucifixion, the afterlife, etc. He is asking the reader to take him seriously, although he speaks in a puzzling way.
Yes, I can see your point.

Re: The meaning of the first six trumps

#66
About the word "in" at the end, I meant that it doesn't work in English with "use", but it does with "enter".

On "sogliare", are you looking in 16th-17th century dictionaries? I That's what Florio's is. In your jpg file, I don't know what the abbreviations are for, other than Dante's Inferno. If I knew, I could look up how "sogliare" is translated by the professionals. I did look up the Dante:
«Tra tutto l’altro ch’i’ t’ho dimostrato,
poscia che noi intrammo per la porta
lo cui sogliare a nessuno è negato,
Translation (http://italian.about.com/library/anthol ... rno014.htm):
"In all the rest which I have shown to thee
Since we have entered in within the gate
Whose threshold unto no one is denied,
The translation for "sogliare" is "threshold", just as in Florio (who says "to cross the threshold of a door").

And yes, we don't disagree on the meaning. It's just on the fine point about how it's expressed. and how to express it in English. Apart from that one little issue, there is only "anteponed".
così il Matto è stato anteposto come figura dell' hosteria al Bagato che è l' Hoste, per significar ella esser quella famosa Hosteria nella qual la magior parte de gli huomini sogliano andar ad alloggiare.
in the same way the Fool has been anteponed, as the sign of the inn, to the Bagat, who is the Innkeeper, in order to signify that that is the famous inn in which the greatest part of the men use to go to stay.
I didn't know "anteponed" was a word in English until I looked it up. "Antepone" means "put before" or "prefer". I presume that "put before" is what is meant. But then "to" (from "al") doesn't fit in English:

"...in the same way the Fool has been put before, as the sign of the inn, to the Bagat, who is the Innkeeper"

has no clear meaning, although we can guess. It's important, because it is part of what defines the relationship between the Bagat and the Fool. Is it:

"...in the same way the Fool, as the sign of the inn, has been put in front of the Bagat, who is the Innkeeper" ?

In the last bit of your translation, "people" would capture the sense better than "men".

Otherwise it looks great.

Re: The meaning of the first six trumps

#67
mikeh wrote: On "sogliare", are you looking in 16th-17th century dictionaries? I That's what Florio's is. In your jpg file, I don't know what the abbreviations are for, other than Dante's Inferno. If I knew, I could look up how "sogliare" is translated by the professionals. I did look up the Dante:
«Tra tutto l’altro ch’i’ t’ho dimostrato,
poscia che noi intrammo per la porta
lo cui sogliare a nessuno è negato,
Translation (http://italian.about.com/library/anthol ... rno014.htm):
"In all the rest which I have shown to thee
Since we have entered in within the gate
Whose threshold unto no one is denied,
The translation for "sogliare" is "threshold", just as in Florio (who says "to cross the threshold of a door").
I have searched this dictionary (1612, it seems): http://vocabolario.sns.it/html/index.html
"sogliare" is given as a synonym of the noun "soglia", which translates to "threshold". So it is not "as Florio", since according to Florio "sogliare" is a verb. I must say that I never heard of "sogliare" before either as a noun or as a verb.

"sogliano" here is from "solere"
I hoped that the other occurence of "sogliano" in the passage would have clarified this point:
l' insegne sogliano dar buon credito all' hostarie

Anyway, this discussion seems irrelevant to me, since, even misinterpreting "sogliano", the meaning of the passage is not altered in a significant way.

Re: The meaning of the first six trumps

#68
Yes, I agree, As "threshold", it's a noun, no verb form indicated. Florio's definition is not worth pursuing further.

I hadn't noticed the other "sogliano", in "sogliano dar". You have translated it as "used to give". Isn't it present tense, too, like the "sogliano" we've been talking about? It seems to me that it should be "customarily give", or something like that. Actually, "customarily" would work well in other occurrence, too: "customarily go to stay". And then the "in" fits, too. It's not so important there, but with the tenses uncorrected, it is harder to figure out what is being said, because the tenses are sometimes really crucial, for telling when one inn is meant rather than the other.
.

Re: The meaning of the first six trumps

#69
mikeh wrote: I hadn't noticed the other "sogliano", in "sogliano dar". You have translated it as "used to give". Isn't it present tense, too, like the "sogliano" we've been talking about?
.
Hello Mike,
yesterday I posted an updated translation, explicitly mentioning the two occurrences of "sogliare" and highlighting them in bold. It is not a long post, about 100 words, if I don't count the quotes from what you wrote and the updated translation which you more or less explicitly requested. I cannot do anything better to answer your questions going straight to the point.

As I already wrote, I find all this irrelevant and I don't find it amusing either. Now I find out that you don't even read what I write. Enough. Feel free to update the Tarotpedia translation in any way you find fit.

Re: The meaning of the first six trumps

#70
Well, I wasn't amused either. I missed your highlighting of the first "sogliare" and also how you changed the translation to present tense. I didn't read the Italian, because I assumed that it was the same as before, that you wouldn't change it. I wasn't focused on that sentence, because I hadn't realized there was anything wrong with it. Unless alerted otherwise, I read phrases, not individual words and letters. So my mind puts into a recognizable pattern what's on the page. Unless I'm looking for typographical errors, I don't even notice them. .)

Sometimes, when I'm tired and need to focus, I sound things out to myself unconsciously. "use to" and "used to" sound the same in English. What you wrote is not a recognized English pattern; the nearest recognizable patterns are "used to" and "are used to". In English you don't just drop the "d" to put an idiomatic expression like "used to" in the present tense. If I'd seen it, I would have told you. I'm not sure what went wrong, actually. I got careless somehow.

I'm trying to be very conscientious, even nit-picking. Parts of the Piscina translation are very hard to read except in a general way unless you already know Italian. Here is that bit.
He is followed by the one that is called the Bagat, in the garb of an innkeeper, not without subtle reasoning, because, as the signs of the Inns are seen by foreigners looking for a lodging before they see the innkeepers themselves, and also as the signs use to give good credit to the inns as we see in those of the Lilies, Eagles, Falcons, Crowns and Kings, that in all good and famous cities show good lodging,..
One way of correcting the part in question might be:

"and also as the signs customarily give good credit to the inns, as we see in those of the Lilies, Eagles..."

Another way might be

"and also as the signs are used to give good credit to the inns, as we see in those of the Lilies, Eagles..."

I think the second way makes better sense of the sentence (which of course ends somewhere down the line).

Also, I misunderstood you when you talked about "soglia". I thought it must be some subjunctive tense of "soliere". It never occurred to me that you were understanding it as "threshold". I don't know Italian very well, obviously. That's why I'm asking these things. I do it with Andrea all the time. I keep asking until I get it. Sometimes I'm right, more often I'm wrong. But I do know English, and I can figure out how to say something in a fairly clear way. Meanwhile, in writing these posts, it's hard enough for me even to remember how to spell the Italian words; I keep writing "sogliere" half the time. And I'm half brain-dead from trying to answer your questions on the other thread. Don't get me wrong, you have great questions. They make me think. And I make mistakes. I'll try to slow down.

I have the feeling these sentences have been discussed in some other thread. But I can't find it.

I wouldn't think of putting any corrections into Tarotpedia. It's your translation. You have to approve any corrections. I don't know of anything else in that passage, but I'd have to read the whole thing carefully in a Word 97 document to be sure.

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