Re: Lydgate's "Popess" and Wheel of Fortune
Posted: 18 Feb 2013, 02:00
Sorry for the confusion, Marco. You were rspeking of an image that exemplified the role of the Popess, and the one I picked was the only one I saw with a coifred female. It didn't occur to me that your emphasis was on "role" rather than "Popess".
I, too, am concerned that images not be taken out of context. That's why I wanted to know dates of the images if possible. Late 16th, 17th, and 18th century images of the Church in a way that resembles the Popess tarot card to me indeed suggests that at that time a parallel between them may have been encouraged by some within the Church. I am more dubious about applying associations between the Church and Christ, because that requires a double association, first to the Pope, and then from the Pope to Christ. However an association between the Pope and the Church as married--because that language apparently was used in the Middle Ages, in some contexts--is worth exploring in relation to the early tarot. But there are problems relating that to the PMB, which we are exploring in another thread. Also, in the context of Boccaccio and Petrach, she would have been his whore, perhaps also in the sense that he was her pimp. Context is key.
I was intrigued by the image of the Virgin of Mercy--and yes, thank you for the Gaddi--for another reason. I have in the past suggested, following the line of Jean-Michael David, that in 16th-17th century France the Popess might have been associated with the Virgin Mary. But all I had to go on was her red and blue outfit and her book, which could be associated with the book Mary holds at the Annunciation. So these figures interest me. Searching for Schoen on Google doesn't turn up anything; nor does looking in the National Gallery (Washington DC?) database. So Michael, if you have a date and an artist or school for the two images we have been discussing, the one Marco was referring to and the one I thought he was referring to, that would help.
I am open to any and all associations to the Popess card, including alchemical and kabbalistic ones, as long as the associations have a place, date, and context (for both the art and the use of the card by a particular milieu) attached.
I, too, am concerned that images not be taken out of context. That's why I wanted to know dates of the images if possible. Late 16th, 17th, and 18th century images of the Church in a way that resembles the Popess tarot card to me indeed suggests that at that time a parallel between them may have been encouraged by some within the Church. I am more dubious about applying associations between the Church and Christ, because that requires a double association, first to the Pope, and then from the Pope to Christ. However an association between the Pope and the Church as married--because that language apparently was used in the Middle Ages, in some contexts--is worth exploring in relation to the early tarot. But there are problems relating that to the PMB, which we are exploring in another thread. Also, in the context of Boccaccio and Petrach, she would have been his whore, perhaps also in the sense that he was her pimp. Context is key.
I was intrigued by the image of the Virgin of Mercy--and yes, thank you for the Gaddi--for another reason. I have in the past suggested, following the line of Jean-Michael David, that in 16th-17th century France the Popess might have been associated with the Virgin Mary. But all I had to go on was her red and blue outfit and her book, which could be associated with the book Mary holds at the Annunciation. So these figures interest me. Searching for Schoen on Google doesn't turn up anything; nor does looking in the National Gallery (Washington DC?) database. So Michael, if you have a date and an artist or school for the two images we have been discussing, the one Marco was referring to and the one I thought he was referring to, that would help.
I am open to any and all associations to the Popess card, including alchemical and kabbalistic ones, as long as the associations have a place, date, and context (for both the art and the use of the card by a particular milieu) attached.