Michael Hurst wrote
The significance is what I said the significance is....

The second way is from something Piscina said about Princes needing to taking pleasure in Fools and the like (there it is, page 17; the Italian word is "Buffoni"). I remembered it as one of the explanations he offered for the presence of these two under the Emperors and Popes - I suppose it could be taken that way. These entertainers could be taken as the lowest in the employ of the Imperial or Papal courts, the lowest "members" of the court, and as such - and good figures to have in a game to boot - they could represent the lowest in the iconographic synecdoche, with the princes as the highest (sort of like the two robes in the Roman memento mori mosaic we like so much, with the butterfly).

mikeh wrote: "Sogliano" would seem to be 3rd person present tense of "sogliare", meaning "to pass or go over the threshold of a door" (http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/florio/search/522c.html), rather than being equivalent to "solevano", imperfect of "solere" and meaning "used to". Also, the rest of the final clause looks to me a little messy. I prefer literal translations unless they make no sense. So for "così il Matto è stato anteposto come figura dell' hosteria al Bagato che è l' Hoste, per signficar ella esser quella famosa Hosteria nella qual la magior parte de gli huomini sogliano andar ad alloggiare" I read:

...so the Fool stands in front as the picture of the Inn of which the Bagato is the Innkeeper, to signify its being that famous Inn in which the majority of the people enter to go to lodge.

If so, he is the innkeeper of the inn where people go now, not the one where they used to go. The Fool is the sign out front--or in my city these days, the guy in the funny outfit waving his sign back and forth on the sidewalk to get my attention--and the Bagato is the Innkeeper of the Inn of which he is the picture, that of the Fool, foolishness. [Added next day: a problem with this translation is the adjective "famosa"; "fama" previously attached to the Inn of the Looking-glass. He would be contradicting what he said earlier. He's allowed to do that, but it requires explaining, e.g. the Inn of the Looking-Glass is no longer as famous as the Inn of the Fool.]

In either translation, the inns are a metaphor for life, which can be lived foolishly, on one side of the street, or prudently, on the other side. The two inns are those of the old Hermes Trismegistus character on the Fanti frontispiece, and--in the alternative translation I offer--that of the dice-rolling Hermes/Thoth next to him. If you choose the trickster Hermes, watch out. Like the Moon in Plutarch's story of the invention of gambling, you could lose some of your light, without help from a Trismegistus, an Agathodemon. But if you do lose, it's in a good cause. In that sense the old man in the Cebetis is not as good an approximation of the Bagat as the dice-roller plus old man in the Fanti. The Cebetis has the positive side, which I do want to emphasize even if it is not as good a fit.

While I'm at it, there are a few more places in the quote, further up, where I had trouble with the translation. One problem is with "voglia" at the beginning of the passage, which is translated as "had preferred". But WordReference says "voglia" is present tense subjunctive. However with the "but for a long time" makes "have preferred" more appropriate. Also, "accadendogli d' ir in viaggio " looks to me like "happening to travel" rather than "when they traveled"; the former is tenseless. And "perduta appresso tutti gl' huomini" looks to me like "lost with all the people", as I don't see "appresso" listed in WordReference as translated by "among". Except for "voglia", these are fine points, I know, but they make the passage more understandable. Also, since we are talking about an attribute of Prudence, I think "Looking-glass" is a more appropriate translation of "Specchio", since it connotes the hand-held thing associated with the virtue. So I get:

all people of every kind, happening to travel, used to lodge first at the inn of the Looking-glass, but for a long time have preferred to go to that of the Fool, more appropriate to their will and their actions. This is why, not without great mystery, we see the Fool in the game of Tarot being depicted in such a way that he looks behind [him] towards a mirror, making fun of the fame of [9] the Looking-glass lost with [in the sense of "dead to"] all the people who once used to go to that inn.

I imagine it as a Matto card like the ones of 17th or early 18th century Piedmont and Lombardy, the ones that sometimes had the French title "Le Fou", where his body is pointed away and to the right but he looks behind him. Piscina says he's looking at a card known for Fame; I can't help wondering it might even be called that. Since the Mirror = prudence, it is either trump 21, now called Prudence/Fame, or it is trump 14, which Alciato called "Fama", a word written on some Belgian Temperance cards, but perhaps here is the last trump in a deck with only 14. I imagine the cards in a circle, so that the last trump is behind the Fool. That's how the card is both zero and also, as in the Steele Sermon, can be the card talked about after the World. Of course all this is speculation. [Added next day: but the last card can't be 14, because Piscina goes on to describe all 22. With the published translation, it's simpler: he's simply looking at the Bagatto, across the street.]

The rest of the translation looks good. But what do I know? Please advise. [Added next day: please note that I made two changes, one at the end of the previous paragraph, and one earlier, regarding "famosa".]

This [explanation] is ull of great consideration, but I do not want to leave out unmentioned another one, even if it will seem to be a joke.

mikeh wrote:Thank you, Marco. A couple more questions. So is Florio mistaken about a verb "sogliere"? (http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/florio/search/522c.html. He actually gives two meanings for it, one irrelevant. Also, would the subjunctive be an appropriate tense in that context? (I have no idea).

In English, it would be more natural to say "that famous inn in which most people use to go to stay", although even that is unnatural, because the "in" wouldn't be there. With Florio's translation, as "enter", the preposition "in" makes sense.

There is also the problem that "the Fool, being the figure of the inn, has been put before the Bagat, who is the Innkeeper, meaning that famous inn in which most people use to go", says that the Innkeeper is that famous inn. E.g., "He went to the same restaurant again this week, meaning the Italian one on the corner." "Meaning" has the sense of "i.e.". Your translation needs more work. I would suggest something more literal, along the lines I have suggested (although I can't fit "use" into that version, without doing violence to either the Italian or the English.)

tutti gl' huomini di qualunque sorte si voglia, accadendogli d' ir in viaggio solevano allogiar prima alla hosteria dello Specchio ma da molto tempo in qua andarsene tutti più voluntieri a quella dil Matto, si come più convenevole, al volere, & alle attioni loro,

e per ciò non senza grandissimo mistero vegiamo il Pazzo nel giuoco de Tarocchi esser dipinto a modo che sguardi indietro ad uno specchio beffandosi della fama dello Specchio perduta appresso tutti gl' huomini, ì quali solevano concorrere all' hostaria soa, e perciò in faccia molto gioiosa si rallegra anzi si glorià del credito ch' egli hà, si che tutti gli houmini gli corrono dietro,

e lo segue colui che s' addomanda il Bagato in habito di hoste, non senza accorto avedimento, percioche si come le Insegne delle Hostarie sono più presto da Forastieri vedutte che cercano d' allogiare che gl' istessi hosti, & che etiamdio l' insegne sogliano dar buon credito all' hostarie come veggiamo, in quelle de Gigli, Aquile, Falconi, Corone e Re, le quali in tutte le buone e famose Città demonstrano buon alloggiamento,

così il Matto è stato anteposto come figura dell' hosteria al Bagato che è l' Hoste, per significar ella esser quella famosa Hosteria nella qual la magior parte de gli huomini sogliano andar ad alloggiare.

I cannot see that Piscina means this passage merely as a joke. Here is your translation of the sentence with "parrà da burla" in it:

This [explanation] is ull of great consideration, but I do not want to leave out unmentioned another one, even if it will seem to be a joke.

The sense is, it will seem to be a joke, but really isn't. Later he says "This is why, with great mystery, we see the Fool in the game of Tarot..." etc. "Mystery" here has the sense of "wonder" or "awe", as it was applied then mainly to theatrical pageants about the birth of Christ, the crucifixion, the afterlife, etc. He is asking the reader to take him seriously, although he speaks in a puzzling way.

«Tra tutto l’altro ch’i’ t’ho dimostrato,
poscia che noi intrammo per la porta
lo cui sogliare a nessuno è negato,

"In all the rest which I have shown to thee
Since we have entered in within the gate
Whose threshold unto no one is denied,

così il Matto è stato anteposto come figura dell' hosteria al Bagato che è l' Hoste, per significar ella esser quella famosa Hosteria nella qual la magior parte de gli huomini sogliano andar ad alloggiare.

in the same way the Fool has been anteponed, as the sign of the inn, to the Bagat, who is the Innkeeper, in order to signify that that is the famous inn in which the greatest part of the men use to go to stay.

mikeh wrote: On "sogliare", are you looking in 16th-17th century dictionaries? I That's what Florio's is. In your jpg file, I don't know what the abbreviations are for, other than Dante's Inferno. If I knew, I could look up how "sogliare" is translated by the professionals. I did look up the Dante:

«Tra tutto l’altro ch’i’ t’ho dimostrato,
poscia che noi intrammo per la porta
lo cui sogliare a nessuno è negato,

Translation (http://italian.about.com/library/anthol ... rno014.htm):

"In all the rest which I have shown to thee
Since we have entered in within the gate
Whose threshold unto no one is denied,

The translation for "sogliare" is "threshold", just as in Florio (who says "to cross the threshold of a door").

mikeh wrote: I hadn't noticed the other "sogliano", in "sogliano dar". You have translated it as "used to give". Isn't it present tense, too, like the "sogliano" we've been talking about?
.

He is followed by the one that is called the Bagat, in the garb of an innkeeper, not without subtle reasoning, because, as the signs of the Inns are seen by foreigners looking for a lodging before they see the innkeepers themselves, and also as the signs use to give good credit to the inns as we see in those of the Lilies, Eagles, Falcons, Crowns and Kings, that in all good and famous cities show good lodging,..