Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks

#61
Huck wrote,
This is nothing, what one can rely upon, but some reason not to assume, that Wheel of Fortune must have been necessarily inside the Cary-Yale.
I am not saying that the Wheel of Fortune must have been necessarily inside the Cary-Yale. It just seems as likely as anything else. The Brera-Brambilla Wheel is closer and surer, relative to Filippo, than France and its exotic variation on chess, whatever the rest of the deck was. It has an old man on it, much like that on the PMB Time. And it is a triumphal motif, which I take to be a unifying feature of the cards, unlike Folly, which is something to be overcome.

Phaeded wrote:
...zoom in on the King card: the only two fruit/flower images that are really clear are on the top and bottom/right one on his chest - they clearly have pointed "3-lobed tulip-like shapes" as I mentioned originally.

Either it is the flower of a quince or a pomegranate - photos of either are inconclusive.

One other note: I have searched for Pomegranate as a Visconti stemma in vain - e.g., nowhere in the Visconti Hours which is overloaded with every stemma available in a variety of ways. Kaplan is surely wrong here, retrodating the combined Sforza-Visconti stemma back to the Visconti themselves for this one. Let’s assume then the possibility of quinces (flowers) on the male Swords and pomegranates on the female.
You say quince flowers for the King of Swords. For the others, are you assuming pomegranate flowers or pomegranate fruits? Your wording is not clear to me.

Also, when I look at the Sforza Hours, I seem to see lots of both quinces and pomegranates, at least the fruits. However I don't have the plates in color, just scans of an old black and white edition. I use the plate numbering there. E.g, for quinces: XLVI, top; XXXIV, two-thirds the way down. Pomegranates: XXVIII, two-thirds the way down; LI, three-fourths the way down; LIII, bottom. These are all on pages where the illuminations are only on the sides, with text in the middle of the page. I don't see any of these particular plates online. Perhaps you have the book. If so, I can describe the pages in more detail for identification purposes. None are on branches quite like on the cards. And I don't think it matters, if we're trying to distinguish Sforza from Visconti.

'Phaeded wrote,
But then there is the odd significance of pomegranates – Persephone’s seeds eaten in Hades that lead to the seasons (known via Ovid in such works as Boccaccio). It could be seen as a foreshadowing pagan proto-symbol of resurrection – split time spent in Hades and some back on the earth. The context here is King of Swords as the deceased Muzio, looking away from the page he tried to save but drowned in his armor instead; the page wears his oversized helmet. This almost seems too “humanistic” for c. 1441 but I can’t see any other significance for the pomegranate. The flowering quince reborn from death (along with the rest of life with Persephone’s annual return in the spring).
Pomegranates, possibly, because it was a standard symbol of resurrection, as you illustrate. But then you switch to quinces, as that's what you need to link Muzio to the King card via the allegory, if the card has quince flowers. The Queen's pomegranate is reborn as a quince? Such mythological botany seems a bit over-subtle and unprecedented. Or is there some mythology of quinces I am overlooking? I sure would like to find a relevant heraldic.

Ross: Reviewing Hind's Appendix, I see your point, especially considering that Rosselli had done just such prints of the Petrarchan triumphs and planets. These are not games in the sense of card games, but "games" in the sense of amusements. I don't know examples of his prints of the seven virtues, but since it's in 5 blocks, it's probably the same. I have removed the offending sentence from my post. It was a minor point, but I appreciate very much pointing it out. I will stop repeating it!

Note: paragraph above about Sforza Hours added 40 minutes after the rest. And thanks for the comments below, Steve.

Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks

#62
"... the use of the pomegranate, crown, dove and fountain motifs as texures on the fabrics of the court cards, individual to each suit, and their symbolism. As motifs they were too common I think to define them necessarily as heraldic. The pomegranate motif, rich in symbolism among Christians, Jews and Muslims [and others] and originally imported from Turco [Turkey], was a common textural pattern on the clothing of the rich, between 1420 to 1550, and was as far as extent research I am aware of the most common motif used on triumphal banners; as a textural pattern for clothing it is also common in renaissance art..."

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.ph ... post955600
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks

#63
SteveM wrote:"... the use of the pomegranate, crown, dove and fountain motifs as texures on the fabrics of the court cards, individual to each suit, and their symbolism. As motifs they were too common I think to define them necessarily as heraldic. The pomegranate motif, rich in symbolism among Christians, Jews and Muslims [and others] and originally imported from Turco [Turkey], was a common textural pattern on the clothing of the rich, between 1420 to 1550, and was as far as extent research I am aware of the most common motif used on triumphal banners; as a textural pattern for clothing it is also common in renaissance art..."

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.ph ... post955600
Granada, which did fall in 1492, was associated to the pomegranate. And this sign was used in the Spanish heraldic.

Image


And pomegranates were used in the deck, which was made accompanying the marriages between Habsburg children and Spanish crown children.

Image


This event likely increased the use of pomegranates in graphics.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks

#64
mikeh wrote:Huck wrote,
This is nothing, what one can rely upon, but some reason not to assume, that Wheel of Fortune must have been necessarily inside the Cary-Yale.
I am not saying that the Wheel of Fortune must have been necessarily inside the Cary-Yale. It just seems as likely as anything else. The Brera-Brambilla Wheel is closer and surer, relative to Filippo, than France and its exotic variation on chess, whatever the rest of the deck was. It has an old man on it, much like that on the PMB Time. And it is a triumphal motif, which I take to be a unifying feature of the cards, unlike Folly, which is something to be overcome.
The French short-assize version likely weren't so exotic. Evrart de Conty, important through the use of 16 gods for the Michelino version, showed something rather similar:

Image

https://sites.google.com/site/carolusch ... -moralises

I hope you see dark blue written lines ... these present the figures. The painter forgot the 4 figures at the second line from below.
Generally one likely has to assume, that chess game versions, which made the game quicker, were relatively common. As bishop and queen were slower figures than in later chess, you needed more moves, before the game became interesting. Using an advanced position instead solved this "boring" problem.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks

#65
Huck wrote:
Phaeded wrote: Your Brescia, the city on the far right, also inland = Jesi (Sforza conquered this city first in the Marche in 1435 and it remained the base of his military operations until he left it in 1447 to battle for Milan). Jesi is fairly well inland/west from Ancona, towards Cremona - thus everything beyond Jesi (off the card to the right and hidden behind it) would be the Marche of Ancona. But in 1441 Sforza would have retained both the Marche and the newly acquired Cremona, hence those two cities in the foregorund. The knight is leaving the city on the right for the city on the left - that is the "gesture" of the painting that needs to be explained, which I have done: Sforza riding forth from his fiefdom to his dowry city and site of his wedding.

Your Venice = Ravenna (moated city just slightly off the coast; the smaller city to the left that you do not label could be Chioggia, which is on the coast at the southern end of the Venetian lagoon and obviously north of Ravenna). Also note: Chioggia and Cremona are almost on the same lattitude and that is what the picture shows - the smaler town on the coast would be due east from Cremona.

Phaeded
How would you relate Cioggia and Ravenna to Sforza or Filippo Maria?
I thought I was pretty clear on Ravenna - Marcello himself was in Ravenna in 1440 to keep it within Venice's sphere of influence (the local lord was rebelling); the timing couldn't be closer to the ostensible date I posit for the CY deck, 1441. As for Chioggia...the War of Chioggia concluded in 1381 marked the waning of Genoan influence in the Mediterranean (Genoa led the rebellion of Chioggia) and cemented the rising dominance of Venice. Chioggia and Ravenna mark early Venetian mainland expansion that Milan wished to check (Ravenna, again, being the southernmost point of Venetian power...towards the Marche).

Phaeded

Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks

#66
mikeh wrote:
"Phaeded wrote:
...zoom in on the King card: the only two fruit/flower images that are really clear are on the top and bottom/right one on his chest - they clearly have pointed "3-lobed tulip-like shapes" as I mentioned originally.

Either it is the flower of a quince or a pomegranate - photos of either are inconclusive.

One other note: I have searched for Pomegranate as a Visconti stemma in vain - e.g., nowhere in the Visconti Hours which is overloaded with every stemma available in a variety of ways. Kaplan is surely wrong here, retrodating the combined Sforza-Visconti stemma back to the Visconti themselves for this one. Let’s assume then the possibility of quinces (flowers) on the male Swords and pomegranates on the female."

You say quince flowers for the King of Swords. For the others, are you assuming pomegranate flowers or pomegranate fruits? Your wording is not clear to me.
The female court cards clearly show pomegranate fruit; the King shows something different, what I can only assume to be a flower. And the only explanation I have for the helmeted page is Muzio's death, thus the admitted guess of "quince" flower - something associated with Muzio. There is still the possibility of the iconographic gloss due to the Italian language - (mela)-cotigno [quince] and melagrano [pomegranate]; I'm assuming the dictionary's parens around mela for quince meant that was irregular or perhaps a poetic convention.
mikeh wrote:
Also, when I look at the Sforza Hours, I seem to see lots of both quinces and pomegranates, at least the fruits. However I don't have the plates in color, just scans of an old black and white edition. I use the plate numbering there. E.g, for quinces: XLVI, top; XXXIV, two-thirds the way down. Pomegranates: XXVIII, two-thirds the way down; LI, three-fourths the way down; LIII, bottom. These are all on pages where the illuminations are only on the sides, with text in the middle of the page. I don't see any of these particular plates online. Perhaps you have the book. If so, I can describe the pages in more detail for identification purposes. None are on branches quite like on the cards. And I don't think it matters, if we're trying to distinguish Sforza from Visconti.
I do own the book but I'm away for the holidays through 1/3 so won't be able to look at it again until then. However I did see a lot of single stemmed roses (some blue, some red) - and in the lone representation of Filippo he even wears a rose garland upon his head (with alternating red and blue roses). But I'm wondering if the Hirsch facsimile does not show the pages you referenced with illuminations only on the sides? And you're positive what you see are pomegranates (stems not mattering)?

Conversation to be continued (I hope) once I get home....

EDIT: I see you are referencing the Sforza Hours while I am referencing the Visconti Hours; not sure of the relevance of the former as its earliest pages dates from 1490, well after the CY and PMB decks. Like the Marziano "16 heroes/gods" deck referenced by Marcello, found as Sforza closed-in on Milan, I also assume the Visconti Hours was found in Pavia (the castle library?) and was available for the production of the PMB deck; it was of course also available for the earlier CY deck as Filippo not only still possessed it but had it completed by Belbello da Pavia.
Phaeded

Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks

#68
Phaeded wrote: I thought I was pretty clear on Ravenna - Marcello himself was in Ravenna in 1440 to keep it within Venice's sphere of influence (the local lord was rebelling); the timing couldn't be closer to the ostensible date I posit for the CY deck, 1441. As for Chioggia...the War of Chioggia concluded in 1381 marked the waning of Genoan influence in the Mediterranean (Genoa led the rebellion of Chioggia) and cemented the rising dominance of Venice. Chioggia and Ravenna mark early Venetian mainland expansion that Milan wished to check (Ravenna, again, being the southernmost point of Venetian power...towards the Marche).

Phaeded
Alright ... Ravenna was involved in the 1438-40 conflicts, and that's close enough to be of relevance.

Chioggia with 1381 in contrast is rather far in time, not really plausible.

Did you make further observations about the city representations at the card and the real view on the observed cit around this time ?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Petrarca Trionfi poem motifs in early Trionfi decks

#69
Huck wrote:
Phaeded wrote: I thought I was pretty clear on Ravenna - Marcello himself was in Ravenna in 1440 to keep it within Venice's sphere of influence (the local lord was rebelling); the timing couldn't be closer to the ostensible date I posit for the CY deck, 1441. As for Chioggia...the War of Chioggia concluded in 1381 marked the waning of Genoan influence in the Mediterranean (Genoa led the rebellion of Chioggia) and cemented the rising dominance of Venice. Chioggia and Ravenna mark early Venetian mainland expansion that Milan wished to check (Ravenna, again, being the southernmost point of Venetian power...towards the Marche).

Phaeded
Alright ... Ravenna was involved in the 1438-40 conflicts, and that's close enough to be of relevance.

Chioggia with 1381 in contrast is rather far in time, not really plausible.

Did you make further observations about the city representations at the card and the real view on the observed cit around this time ?
Geographically Chioggia makes perfect sense and is in fact the geographic reality: an eastern view showing Cremona but towards the Adriatic, on which is Chioggia. It is a mainland Venetian possession that they conquered - Chioggia's signficance, conquered mainland city, is not dimmed because it happened 60 years earlier. Bianca was married off to Sforza so the latter could check Venetian incursions into Milanese territories - you dispute that?

As for the cities' representations - I find them to be rather stock images. Again, Giotto's Navicella and the Visconti Hours (the Creation sheet) [both posted earlier in this thread] to clearly be the model for a fishing person sitting/kneeling next to one of these cities; the view towards the Adriatic (Venentian Chioggia to the left/north to the Marche of Ancona in the south/right) explains the placement of the other stock cities.

Phaeded

Pomegranates again

#70
I looked not only at The Visconti Hours, by Meiss and Kirsch (1972), but also Five Illuminated Manuscripts of Giangaleazzo Visconti, by Kirsch (1991). She is very sensitive to Visconti armorials, heraldics, and devices (I'm not sure what the distinctions are) and mentions some I never knew before, like cheetahs. She never mentions pomegranates as a Visconti device, for either Giangaleazzo or Filippo. (Filippo is relevant because several of the manuscripts were in an unfinished state, completed by Filippo.) There are plenty of round objects at the end of stems, but they are in other people's books, too (e.g. those of Padua), not unique to the Visconti. The only mention of pomegranates as a heraldic in these manuscripts is in connection with Annet Regin, papal protonotary and precensor of the Cathedral of Clermont in 1528-1529. She says (p. 35):
The Regan shield, a gold crowned pomegranate on a field of azure, was added beneath the potrait of a nobleman worshiping the Madonna that introduces the Seven Joys of the Virgin on folio 109v (Fig. 26).
And also on ten other folios. This is in Paris Bibl. nat. Lat. 757, of c. 1380, one of Kirsch's five of Giangaleazzo. So the only pomegranate heraldic we see in this group--and not a Visconti one--was added by an unknown artist in the 16th century!

I will continue to look for Visconti pomegranates, but I have a feeling that SteveM is right: even though it was a possible heraldic, it was also a popular design of the time, and maybe that's what it is in the CY. In this connection, there is a design by Pisanello in his sketch book, which I get from frances Ames-Lewis, Drawing in Early Renaissance Italy 2nd edition, by Francis Ames-Lewis, p. 74:
Image

Ames-Lewis doesn't put a date on the drawing; it could be from the 1420s or the 1440s. Pisanello was in various cities then, including Pavia, in the 1420s, then Ferrara, and in Milan 1440-1441. The drawing doesn't show pomegranates, but otherwise it is similar to the dress of the CY's Female Knight (http://www.tarothistory.com/images/cary ... knight.jpg) and Queen of Swords. I guess that's the way dresses looked then.

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