Re: Casa del Petrarca

#51
Anything untimely must have happened VERY recently, since she was scheduled to present a talk at this event in Melbourne a little over two months ago -

"Friday, 20 July 2012, 9.15am

Each roundtable will be launched with focussed presentations by three Australian Renaissance scholars whose work engages with the relevant theme. A facilitator will then open the discussion to enable a flow of ideas between panel and audience. Participants will experience a dynamic and interactive overview of the current state of Italian Renaissance research in Australia.

9.15am Coffee and Registration

10.15am – 11.45pm
Roundtable 1 – Spaces:
Chair: Nerida Newbigin (Sydney)
Participants:
Nick Eckstein (Sydney), Robert Gaston (Melbourne), Dale Kent (Melbourne)"

http://melbourneartnetwork.com.au/2012/ ... a-i-tatti/

Note that Nerida Newbigin, the Chair of the seminar, is the scholar who edited the journals of Giusto Giusti, which incidentally provided the earliest known reference to Triumph cards - "naibi a trionfi".
Image

Re: Casa del Petrarca

#53
Lorredan wrote:I read...
Kent is professor of history at the University of California at Riverside.
So I emailed with request about the subject (I have not received an email reply)
I wrote to To her at the University at the same time, and the mail came back the day I posted here in the Forum with a stamp DECEASED. Strange sort of Joke if she is not dead.
That is why it took me so long to reply to the question here on the forum.
I have not been able to find an Obituary.....so who knows. Write away...maybe she will rise from the dead or maybe she does not know where New Zealand is. Or maybe she only anwers to Historians or students.
This subject is enough to make a Saint faint.
~Lorredan
Is it possible, that "deceased" just means, that she left Riverside?

Btw. Has somebody taken opportunity and congratulated Newbegin to her Trionfi finding? One could make a reference to ...
http://trionfi.com/giusto-giusti
... where Newbegin gets some greater attention. Likely she would answer ... and there is opportunity to ask for Dale Kent.

Btw: I found another more recent email address at university Melbourne
http://directory.unimelb.edu.au/?name=dale+kent
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Casa del Petrarca

#54
Huck wrote: Is it possible, that "deceased" just means, that she left Riverside?
LOL - nope, the word "deceased" does not have this semantic range in English. It means only "dead", and only refers to people (I guess some people may refer to their pets this way, but I have never heard it).
Btw. Has somebody taken opportunity and congratulated Newbegin to her Trionfi finding? One could make a reference to ...
http://trionfi.com/giusto-giusti
... where Newbegin gets some greater attention. Likely she would answer ... and there is opportunity to ask for Dale Kent.
nerida.newbigin@sydney.edu.au

That's a very nice idea. I'll compose a letter that might interest her. Have to get all my references straight - it doesn't pay to sound like a Tarot maniac when writing to someone out of the blue.
Btw: I found another more recent email address at university melbourne
http://directory.unimelb.edu.au/?name=dale+kent
Great! Thanks.
Image

Re: Casa del Petrarca

#55
Ross wrote
Does Lorredan or anyone else have more up-to-date information?
A.C. de la Mare's essay "Cosimo and his books" in Cosimo 'Il Vecchio' de' Medici 1389-1464 pp 125-156 has a list of 63 entries, with de la Mare's comments, which he says is the March 1417/1418 inventory of Cosimo's library, starting with no. 4 and ending with no. 66. Of these one is a Petrarch. The entry reads:
Inv. 64. Sonetti di Messer Francesco [i.e. Petrarch]. Probably App. no. 56, a Florentine manuscript of the late fourteenth or early fifteen century. Gothic acanthus initials. The script developing from the late gothic to early humanistic might be early Poggio Bracciolini. Erased ex-libris of Coluccio Salutati, son of the Chancellor, and of Piero de' Medici type II.
"App. no. 56" means no. 56 in de la Mare's Appendix to his essay. That entry reads:
56. Laur. plut.41, 10 (CS 12; AL 111), Petrarch Canzioniere. Lagte 14th or early 15th century Forentine gothic acanthus and pen-flourished initials. Written n black ink in a hand showing the influence of Petrarch, but developing from gothic into early humanistic, which might conceivably be the very early hand of Poggio Bracciolii (not Salutati). At least one note in Salutati's hand (fo. 67). Erased ex-libris of Coluccio son of Coluccio Salutati covered with erased ex-libris of Piero de' Medici type II Inv. No. 64. Described in Piero's '1456' enventory (no. 80) as 'di mano di messe(r) Coluccio'.
De la Mare seems to be something of a handwriting expert.

In addition, I looked on every page listed in the index for "Petrarch" in Dale Kent's book and found nothing relating to any Trionfi in 1418 except the statement on p. 13. I looked at D. G. Witt's Hercules at the Crossroads: The Life, Work and Thought of Coluccio Salutati. There's plenty about him adoring Petrarch and collecting manuscripts, but nothing about the Trionfi. I notice that Kent also identifies the rider on the white horse in the Adoration of the Magi painting (Galeazzo Maria Sforza) as Giangaleazzo Maria Sforza.

De la Mare in his Appendix mentions about 15 manuscripts that Cosimo got from Salutati after 1418. They are a Petrus de Crescentiis etc, a Cassian, a Tibullus (possibly copied from a ms. of Petrarch's), a Propertius, a Pomponius Mela, an anonymous commentary on the Psalms, four volumes of Augustine on different subjects (one also containing Bede and Anselm, another with Ambrose), a John Chrysostom, a Martinellus, a Lactantius, a Palladius, a Valerius Maximus. None was part of Cosimo's 1418 inventory.

Re: Casa del Petrarca

#56
mikeh wrote:Ross wrote
Does Lorredan or anyone else have more up-to-date information?
A.C. de la Mare's essay "Cosimo and his books" in Cosimo 'Il Vecchio' de' Medici 1389-1464 pp 125-156 has a list of 63 entries, with de la Mare's comments, which he says is the March 1417/1418 inventory of Cosimo's library, starting with no. 4 and ending with no. 66. Of these one is a Petrarch. The entry reads:
Inv. 64. Sonetti di Messer Francesco [i.e. Petrarch]. Probably App. no. 56, a Florentine manuscript of the late fourteenth or early fifteen century. Gothic acanthus initials. The script developing from the late gothic to early humanistic might be early Poggio Bracciolini. Erased ex-libris of Coluccio Salutati, son of the Chancellor, and of Piero de' Medici type II.
"App. no. 56" means no. 56 in de la Mare's Appendix to his essay. That entry reads:
56. Laur. plut.41, 10 (CS 12; AL 111), Petrarch Canzioniere. Lagte 14th or early 15th century Forentine gothic acanthus and pen-flourished initials. Written n black ink in a hand showing the influence of Petrarch, but developing from gothic into early humanistic, which might conceivably be the very early hand of Poggio Bracciolii (not Salutati). At least one note in Salutati's hand (fo. 67). Erased ex-libris of Coluccio son of Coluccio Salutati covered with erased ex-libris of Piero de' Medici type II Inv. No. 64. Described in Piero's '1456' enventory (no. 80) as 'di mano di messe(r) Coluccio'.
De la Mare seems to be something of a handwriting expert.

In addition, I looked on every page listed in the index for "Petrarch" in Dale Kent's book and found nothing relating to any Trionfi in 1418 except the statement on p. 13. I looked at D. G. Witt's Hercules at the Crossroads: The Life, Work and Thought of Coluccio Salutati. There's plenty about him adoring Petrarch and collecting manuscripts, but nothing about the Trionfi. I notice that Kent also identifies the rider on the white horse in the Adoration of the Magi painting (Galeazzo Maria Sforza) as Giangaleazzo Maria Sforza.

De la Mare in his Appendix mentions about 15 manuscripts that Cosimo got from Salutati after 1418. They are a Petrus de Crescentiis etc, a Cassian, a Tibullus (possibly copied from a ms. of Petrarch's), a Propertius, a Pomponius Mela, an anonymous commentary on the Psalms, four volumes of Augustine on different subjects (one also containing Bede and Anselm, another with Ambrose), a John Chrysostom, a Martinellus, a Lactantius, a Palladius, a Valerius Maximus. None was part of Cosimo's 1418 inventory.
Thanks very much Mike! That's very good information - it identifies the manuscript, and answers my question about whether - and how - Kent could know that a copy of Petrarch's Sonetti came from Salutati's library. It is based, apparently, on De la Mare's expertise (and perhaps a wider consensus). That Salutati owned it once is certain because there is a note in his hand. It is also plausible that this is the copy mentioned in the 1417/18 inventory.

But, of course, the important thing for us is that the Trionfi is not mentioned in it. So Kent's Trionfi of 1418 remains a phantom.

There remains the problem of when the Trionfi in the canonical form we know it was first "published". I note that four important northern-Italian library inventories from 1407 through 1437 do not mention the collection as a whole under the title I Trionfi, nor any particular part of it.
Image

Re: Casa del Petrarca

#57
OK..so she seems at the University of Melbourne -well my brother is a Professor at Monash- which is called the University of Victoria and Melbourne is the Capital of Victoria. So I will ring my brother and find out.
If she is alive- I will find out how to contact her. Then I will kill her. :ymsmug:
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: Casa del Petrarca

#58
Here goes and blessings my brother.
Dale Kent is an adjunct professor of History at La Trobe University...
The address should anyone want to write to her is.....
La Trobe University
Attention Dale Kent
Bundoora
Victoria 3086
Australia

~Lorredan
ps. There is no email address for her that my brother can find.
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: Casa del Petrarca

#59
Lorredan wrote:OK..so she seems at the University of Melbourne -well my brother is a Professor at Monash- which is called the University of Victoria and Melbourne is the Capital of Victoria. So I will ring my brother and find out.
If she is alive- I will find out how to contact her. Then I will kill her. :ymsmug:
~Lorredan
... :-) ... we wanted to learn, how distributed and popular the Trionfi poem was, and if we learn it this way or another, doesn't matter. Indeed the result, that it is difficult to find anything, is somehow more interesting for our research than if we would find, that it is easy. Then it just tells us, that we've asked the right question.

Petrarca likely during his life time send parts of his Trionfi poem to friends occasionally. So parts of the text, if they occasionally appeared in other texts as the two examples, which we found (March 1439 and "first quarter of 15th century") not naturally mean, that the authors knew the complete work.
Could one get the information, if this "first quarter of 15th century" work spoke of "I Trionfi" in the form of a quotation, or did it just present some text which was identified as belonging to the "I Trionfi" later? Appears the title "I Trionfi" in an early biography of Petrarca? Which title had "I Trionfi" in Petrarca's lifetime, was it already called "I Trionfi" in his letters?
There's a lot of clever stupid questions.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Casa del Petrarca

#60
by Ross G. R. Caldwell on 21 Sep 2012, 16:23

Phaeded wrote:
Not to lose sight of the key point here: Anghiari was a Medici triumphal celebration. If so, how was the allied Anghiari notary's trionfi deck not taking its cue from a Medici artistic precedent that followed the battle?

Ross wrote: Unless I've missed something, where is the description of this "Medici triumph" in Anghiari? What sort of "artistic" elements did it contain?
Hey Ross,
Preparing a response for a new thread as my take on the Medici/Anghiari has little to do with Petrarch (or his house ;-). At all events I must have not been that clear - what I am positing is that the triumphal celebrations after the battle of Anghiari in Florence were a Medici affair. And if I'm not mistaken you have repeatedly stated you expected the origins of trionfi to be ca. 1440 - if so, how is the inspiriation for the trionfi cards not the triumphal event of Anghiari? Nothing else ca. 1440 would come in close in significance unless you see the cards as ecclesiastical in celebrating the 1439 Council (perhaps some Church Militant theme). With either event you are in Florence and therefore of course dealing with a Medici affair/production; ergo the cards must be connected to them. Again, I'll post more details on this in a new post soon.

Ironically a couple of weeks ago I had spent some time with the book you referenced, Philine Helas, Lebende Bilder in der italienischen Festkultur des 15. Jahrhunderts (1999), but you will also not find in it a Florentine celebration there for 1440, although Machiavelli assures us it happened (I was actually more interested in the photos of the Costanzo Sforza celebration and its possible iconographical connection to the CVI deck).

Regarding Dale Kent - ever since the Giusto discovery her seminal work on Cosimo has been my bible (picked up an affordable used copy that has become an invaluable reference). Best of luck in contacting her and Newbiggin (had to drive from Chicago to South Bend/Notre Dame to view the latter's transcription of Giusto's diary) - will be interresed if either is at all interested in our stigmatized trionfi.

Phaeded

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

cron