On LE Tarot Michael Howard gave this text......of Andrea Alciati

Mundus habet primas, croceas dein Angelus alis:
Tum Phoebus, luna, & stellæ, cum fulmine dæmon:
Fama necem, Crux ante senem, fortuna quadrigas:
Cedit amor forti & justo: regemque sacerdos,
Flaminicam regina præit que is campo propinat
Omnibus: extremo stultus discernitur actu.


The world has the primate, then the golden winged angel;
Then Phoebus, the moon and the stars, the devil with the lightning;
Fame precedes death, the cross the old man, fortune the chariot;
Love yields to the strong and the just: the priest precedes the king,
The queen precedes the high priest’s wife, the innkeeper offers drinks
To all these: at the end the fool is recognizable by his behavior.

I wish to ask about the latin description of three cards.
Card 5 whom we call the Pope = sacerdos
Card 4 whom we call the Emperor = regemque
Card 3 whom we call the Empress = Flamincam
Card 2 whom we call the Papesse/popesse = Regina
Here is the sentence I wonder about...
regemque sacerdos, flaminicam regina præit que is campo propinat
Omnibus: extremo stultus discernitur actu.

Priest and King, Queen and Flamincam for which he has to field all: The latter is distinguished by a foolish act.

Where is Innkeeper? An Innkeeper is a caupo- a campo is a field. Seems a big error for Alciati.
Priest is Sacerdos, but if he had a wife called a Flamincam why was he not called a Flamen?
A High priestess would be called a Summus Sacerdos
A Flamen....is like the priest of a Goddess's cult and he wears a skull cap and cape and if you saw a sculpture you might well think he is a Pope.
The only Flamincam that I can recall who was married was Livia who was also the Empress of Rome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livia
A Flamenca is a Priestess who keeps the sacred flame (and wore a tiara of roses as flora queen of May in Italy for example)and was a Virgin and had many restrictions on her life. Think of a flamenca dancer= A flame of passion.
Who was Andrea Alciati seeing when he spoke of the cards?
In Italian a Priestess is called a sacerdotessa.
~Lorredan
Here is a Flamen

Here is Flamenicam Regina sacrorum..... Here is Flamenicam Floralia

The innkeeper, isn't that the guy behind the table with a glass and a the gambling gear and a cake/hat/moneybag?

Hi debra
Ha ha yes he is and it makes perfect sense.....where they play cards.
He would object if we called him a 'field' though.
Hey Paddock ! A beer for me and me mate please, and have you seen these 4 identikits...Do you know who they are?
The Paddock replies "Wot! You are in Bologna and they look like Papists....this here is a comune we will have nuttin to do with them Papists- hide 'em....better still exchange them!"
~Lorredan

Lorredan wrote: Here is the sentence I wonder about...
regemque sacerdos, flaminicam regina præit que is campo propinat
Omnibus: extremo stultus discernitur actu.

Priest and King, Queen and Flamincam for which he has to field all: The latter is distinguished by a foolish act.

Where is Innkeeper? An Innkeeper is a caupo- a campo is a field. Seems a big error for Alciati.

Alciato wrote "caupo".

Here is the original text, 1544 edition -



http://books.google.com.au/books?id=QG1 ... &q&f=false
(page 90)

We discussed this text here on the thread "Fame Riddle", last year. See these two posts in particular:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=747&hilit=parergon&start=30#p10736
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=747&hilit=parergon&start=30#p10738

Thank you Ross- Just one word and the whole meaning changes! Caupo not Campo.
That is how the mistake just carries on.
Now looking at the script...it looks like Flaminicam regina is just one person not two, like the title of the picture of the Flamencam Regina sacrorum I posted. In the script there is a comma between Regemq, Sacerdos:
but no comma between Flaminicam and regina. Does that not make you think that it is Queen Priestess of Jupiter?;
~Lorredan

Lorredan wrote:Thank you Ross- Just one word and the whole meaning changes! Caupo not Campo.
That is how the mistake just carries on.
Now looking at the script...it looks like Flaminicam regina is just one person not two, like the title of the picture of the Flamencam Regina sacrorum I posted. In the script there is a comma between Regemq, Sacerdos:
but no comma between Flaminicam and regina. Does that not make you think that it is Queen Priestess of Jupiter?;
~Lorredan

No, flaminicam is the accusative case, the object; regina is the nominative, the subject; regem is again accusative, like flaminicam, and sacerdos is nominative; all of these use the verb praeire, to precede or go before, so the sentence very literally (in Latin word order) is "and the King the Sacerdos, the Flaminica the Queen, he/she precedes". That is "The (nominative-subject) Sacerdos precedes the (accusative-object) the King, the (nominative subject) Queen precedes the (accusative object) Flaminica."

Thus the descending order is:

Sacerdos
King
Queen
Flaminica

In other words, just like in the Tarot de Marseille.

That's great! My latin is really rusty (obviously).
Thanks for the other threads and now I understand.
I just thought it an oddity that Alciati calls the High Priestess or Papesse- Flaminica; this meant to me that the Papesse was thought to be Pagan not Christian and takes me right back to the Palazzo della Ragione in Padua, and that wonderful image you posted once of the kalends of May.(a similar one is on a column in Saint Marks Venice and I cannot find it on AT.
~Lorredan

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: Thus the descending order is:

Sacerdos
King
Queen
Flaminica

In other words, just like in the Tarot de Marseille.

Well, not everywhere it's like the Tarot de Marseille. Between position 6 till position 11 it's partly different.

But Fame or Temperance is "high" and that's some how the first indication of the sequence of Tarot de Marseille, if we exclude the "Triperuno", which is not totally clear.
Also late are or seems to be "Temperance with wings" (as in the Marseille Tarot) and "Temperance with elephant" (as in Etteilla), which both might indicate a "connection Temperance-Fame".

Huck wrote:

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: Thus the descending order is:

Sacerdos
King
Queen
Flaminica

In other words, just like in the Tarot de Marseille.

Well, not everywhere it's like the Tarot de Marseille. Between position 6 till position 11 it's partly different.

Clearly I never said that it did match it everywhere. I'm not sure why you think I implied it, unless it is to provoke a fight over a strawman for some reason.

But Fame or Temperance is "high" and that's some how the first indication of the sequence of Tarot de Marseille, if we exclude the "Triperuno", which is not totally clear.
Also late are or seems to be "Temperance with wings" (as in the Marseille Tarot) and "Temperance with elephant" (as in Etteilla), which both might indicate a "connection Temperance-Fame".

The Tarot de Marseille is just one example of the C or Western order (or family if you prefer), of which the other 16th century ones are (presumably) Susio (Pavia), Piscina (Savoy/Piedmont), and Catelin Geofroy (Lyon - same as Tarot de Marseille). In the 17th century we still get differences in the Western family with Vieville. The hallmark of this family is the placement of Temperance immediately following Death.

I don't think it is possible to reconstruct the order of trumps that Folengo was using. It isn't even clear from the sonnets whether the Angel or the World is the highest card, which would give us at least a hint. Since he mentions by name the Pope and Popess, Emperor and Empress, it is likely he knew a B or C order (and therefore not that of Bologna or Florence).