Re: German Lenormand 1846 / Spiel der Hoffnung 1799

#51
Huck wrote:However: The title "Les Gueux" ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geuzen
... refers to a political group and situation in Lorraine
It was in Netherlands, not Lorraine, was it ? The word gueux in French means beggars, the term was possibly applied to the calvinists in a contemptuous manner, and/or chosen/kept by them to underline their opposition, and the word itself predates its use to refer this calvinist group.
http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/gueux

Re: German Lenormand 1846 / Spiel der Hoffnung 1799

#52
Helen wrote:FYI the German Wiki page for Johann Kaspar Hechtel with a link to this thread is now up. Note that the content is not totally within my control, there have been plenty of other hands in it already and some changes made for consistency with Wiki standards and other Wiki pages. Note also there are separate pages for Marie Anne Lenormand and Lenormandkarten where I have added links to Hechtel (some still waiting for approval).

Thanks for your help Huck! :)
Thank you, too ... you have shown some talent for research. Perhaps you once become also interested in some of the older stuff about Trionfi and other playing cards ... :-) ... There are a lot of riddles.

Yes, I've seen the changes inclusive some "corrections to the worse" ... that's a common destiny for wikipedia contributions. I've corrected the corrections. Maybe tomorrow we've new "improvements".

A very good example is the bad state of the page ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarot
... which is a summary of nonsense. My comment is in red:
François Rabelais gives tarau as the name of one of the games played by Gargantua in his Gargantua and Pantagruel;[2] this is likely the earliest attestation of the French form of the name.[citation needed]
...
The first form of Taroch and Taraux appeared in 1505 in Avignon and Ferrara.


Etymology

The English and French word tarot derives from the italian tarocchi, which has no known origin or etymology. One theory relates the name "tarot" to the Taro River in northern Italy, near Parma; the game seems to have originated in northern Italy, in Milan or Bologna.[4]
For the moment it looks very much like "from Florence"

Other writers believe it comes from the Arabic word طرق turuq, which means 'ways'.[5] Alternatively, it may be from the Arabic ترك taraka, 'to leave, abandon, omit, leave behind'.[6] According to a French etymology, the Italian tarocco derived from Arabic طرح ṭarḥ,[7] 'rejection; subtraction, deduction, discount'.[8]

There is also the question of whether the word tarot is related to Harut and Marut, who were mentioned in a short account in the Qur'an. According to this account, a group of Israelites learned magic, for demonstration and to test them, from two angels called Harut and Marut, and it adds that this knowledge of magic would be passed on to others by the devil.[9] What can be taken into account here is the phonetic resemblance of tarot تاروت to Harut هاروت and Marut ماروت.
There are many other more plausible suggestions.

History

Playing cards first entered Europe in the late 14th century, probably from Mamluk Egypt, with suits very similar to the tarot suits of Swords, Staves, Cups and Coins (also known as disks, and pentacles) and those still used in traditional Italian, Spanish and Portuguese decks.[10]

However, the earliest written document mentioning a tarot-like card set occurs as early as 1227, and it says that "Italian children are instructed in the knowledge of the virtues via sheets (cards) denominated carticellas".
Nice ... does anybody knows these new ideas of a Tarot origins ?

A perfect example of these "carticellas" comes from a 1460 set known today as "Tarot de Mantegna" or "Tarot de Baldini" created by artist Francesco del Cossa.
So Francesco del Cossa shall be the new origin of the Mantegna Tarocchi. 1460 is doubtful. My own theory says c. 1475.

This set was composed of 50 cards and split in 5 categories (Social Classes, The Muses, Arts & Sciences, Virtues & Cosmic Principles, and the Planets & Spheres).[11] Nevertheless,the first direct mention of playing cards was in 1299 in a manuscript written in Siena titled "Trattato del governo della familia di Pipozzo di Sandro",
in which the existence of naibbe is mentioned,
hm ... wasn't that "carte" ? Pipozzi is noted by Kaplan and not accepted ...
which is the first term used for playing cards (naipes in Spanish), originating from the Arabic word naib (`deputy') suggesting the name of the game -`the Game of Deputies'.[12][13]

Starting in 1310, German territories start shunning the game of naibbe (cards).
1310 is new to me ... what's this ?

Additionally, In 1332, king Alfonso XI of Castile advises his knights to not play such games.[12]
... noted by Kaplan and not accepted ... noted by Kaplan and not accepted ...
However, the first direct documented evidence of a ban on their use is in 1367, Bern, Switzerland. Wide use of playing cards in Europe can, with some certainty, be traced from 1377 onwards.[14]

Additionally, in a 1377 document, naibbe was one of the favorite games of a German priest called Father Johannes where he writes about the existence of 7 different types of decks, one of which consists of 78 cards, which could only refer to a Tarot deck.
interesting question ... did Johannes use the terminus naibbe? I think, this was ludus cartarum ...

It is believed Tarot could have evolved out of traditional playing cards , with the addition of the major arcana being influenced by the previously mentioned carticellas, which already depicted cards such as The Sun, The Moon, Justice, Temperance, Strength, The Emperor, and the Pope (Hierophant.)
... 7 trumps, as it seems, who brought this up ? ...

Other theories by occultists point out how the mysterious rise to tarot coincides with the spread of the Holy inquisition in the 12th century, and the formation of Kabbalah, theorizing that the esoteric symbolism of the cards are remainders of pagan Europe disguised as playing cards in order to escape persecution.[15]

The first known documented tarot cards were created between 1430 and 1450 in Milan, Ferrara and Bologna in northern Italy when additional trump cards with allegorical illustrations were added to the common four-suit pack.
... would be nice to know, which Tarot cards are documented in 1430-1440 ...

These new decks were originally called carte da trionfi, triumph cards, and the additional cards known simply as trionfi, which became "trumps" in English. The first literary evidence of the existence of carte da trionfi is a written statement in the court records in Ferrara, in 1442.[16] The oldest surviving tarot cards are from fifteen fragmented decks painted in the mid 15th century for the Visconti-Sforza family, the rulers of Milan.[17]
... if it are 15 fragmented decks, who said, that these all were made mid 15th century ...

Divination using playing cards is in evidence as early as 1540 in a book entitled The Oracles of Francesco Marcolino da Forlì which allows a simple method of divination, though the cards are used only to select a random oracle and have no meaning in themselves.
... Johann Schöffer about 1505 in Strasbourg and Mainz ...

But manuscripts from 1735 (The Square of Sevens) ...
compare http://marygreer.wordpress.com/2008/04/ ... of-sevens/
...and 1750 (Pratesi Cartomancer) document rudimentary divinatory meanings for the cards of the tarot as well as a system for laying out the cards. Giacomo Casanova wrote in his diary that in 1765 his Russian mistress frequently used a deck of playing cards for divination.[18]

Early decks
Le Bateleur: The Juggler from the Tarot of Marseilles. This card is often named The Magician in modern English language tarots
... it's wrong, that the Juggler comes from the Tarot des Marseilles ...

Picture-card packs are first mentioned by Martiano da Tortona probably between 1418 and 1425, since the painter he mentions, Michelino da Besozzo, returned to Milan in 1418, while Martiano himself died in 1425. He describes a deck with 16 picture cards with images of the Greek gods and suits depicting four kinds of birds, not the common suits. However the 16 cards were obviously regarded as "trumps" as, about 25 years later, Jacopo Antonio Marcello called them a ludus triumphorum, or "game of trumps".[19]
... ah, I meet something of my own words some years ago, though rather taken out of context ...

Special motifs on cards added to regular packs show philosophical, social, poetical, astronomical, and heraldic ideas, Roman/Greek/Babylonian heroes, as in the case of the Sola-Busca-Tarocchi (1491)[20] and the Boiardo Tarocchi poem, written at an unknown date between 1461 and 1494.[21]

Two playing card decks from Milan (the Brera-Brambilla and Cary-Yale-Tarocchi)—extant, but fragmentary—were made circa 1440. Three documents dating from 1 January 1441 to July 1442, use the term trionfi. The document from January 1441 is regarded as an unreliable reference; however, the same painter, Sagramoro, was commissioned by the same patron, Leonello d'Este, as in the February 1442 document. The game seemed to gain in importance in the year 1450, a Jubilee year in Italy, which saw many festivities and the movement of many pilgrims.
... more or less my words, out of context...

Three mid-15th century sets were made for members of the Visconti family.[22] The first deck, and probably the prototype, is called the Cary-Yale Tarot (or Visconti-Modrone Tarot) and was created between 1442 and 1447 by an anonymous painter for Filippo Maria Visconti.[22] The cards (only 67) are today in the Cary collection of the Beinecke Rare Book Library at Yale University, in the U.S. state of Connecticut.[23] The most famous was painted in the mid-15th century, to celebrate Francesco Sforza and his wife Bianca Maria Visconti, daughter of the duke Filippo Maria. Probably, these cards were painted by Bonifacio Bembo or Francesco Zavattari between 1451 and 1453.
... Zavattari is considered for the Cary-Yale, not for Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo Tarocchi ...

[22] Of the original cards, 35 are in The Morgan Library & Museum, 26 are at the Accademia Carrara, 13 are at the Casa Colleoni[22] and four: 'The Devil', 'The Tower', 'Money's Horse (The Chariot)' and '3 of Spades', are lost or else never made. This "Visconti-Sforza" deck, which has been widely reproduced, reflects conventional iconography of the time to a significant degree.[24]

.... "Money's horse", oh, that's really inventive (and that's not the chariot, but the knight of coins), and a 3 of spades the deck hadn't indeed, but also not a 3 of swords ...

Hand-painted tarot cards remained a privilege of the upper classes and, although some sermons inveighing against the evil inherent in cards can be traced to the 14th century, most civil governments did not routinely condemn tarot cards during tarot's early history[citation needed]. In fact, in some jurisdictions, tarot cards were specifically exempted from laws otherwise prohibiting the playing of cards.

Because the earliest tarot cards were hand-painted, the number of the decks produced is thought to have been rather small, and it was only after the invention of the printing press that mass production of cards became possible. Decks survive from this era from various cities in France, and the most popular pattern of these early printed decks comes from the southern city of Marseilles, after which it is named the Tarot de Marseilles.[25]
Wikipedia works in many cases very well. However, in the case of "Tarot" in English Wikipedia it's a tragedy ... :-)
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: German Lenormand 1846 / Spiel der Hoffnung 1799

#54
Bertrand wrote:
Huck wrote:However: The title "Les Gueux" ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geuzen
... refers to a political group and situation in Lorraine
It was in Netherlands, not Lorraine, was it ? The word gueux in French means beggars, the term was possibly applied to the calvinists in a contemptuous manner, and/or chosen/kept by them to underline their opposition, and the word itself predates its use to refer this calvinist group.
http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/gueux
The author of the pictures was in Lorraine and Calvinists were not only in Netherlands. The state of Lorraine in 1621 is not clear to me.. In 1633 France occupied Lorraine. It seems, that the picture series of 1621 addresses (likely negatively) a current political party, which somehow also has a tangent with the situation in Lorraine. The near Strasbourg had a long Calvinistic tradition.
1621 has Huguenot rebellions, the focus is clearly not in the West of France and not in Lorraine.

Swiss has clearly Calvinists, Dutch territories had Calvinists. Lorraine was between both regions.

It was the time of the begin of the 30-years-wa. Catholic parties organized themselves against Protestant parties.
The Palatin had attempted to become Bohemian king against the interests of the emperor. With the usual position of the Palatin in Heidelberg he was a neighbor to the region in Lorraine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_ ... r_Palatine
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: German Lenormand 1846 / Spiel der Hoffnung 1799

#55
hi,

We got some friendly notes in the new Petit Lenormand literature:

http://books.google.de/books?id=0EwvYEi ... fi&f=false

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Image

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Learning Lenormand: Traditional Fortune Telling for Modern Life
By Marcus Katz, Tali Goodwin (2012)

Petit Lenormand, after it had been 150 or even 200 years as "Spiel der Hoffnung" a special German phenomenon and here competed in strong form with modern Tarot as tool of divination, seems to have become a hype in English language countries (at least I've read so).

Even Mary Greer participated with a "Webinar":

Image

http://marygreer.wordpress.com/
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: German Lenormand 1846 / Spiel der Hoffnung 1799

#56
Hello, I would like to make a request. :ympray:

In the 1972 Wahrsagekarten museum catalogue by Detlef Hoffmann and Erika Kroppenstedt, Hoffmann says:

"Das alteste mir bekannte Spiel bewahrt das Britische Museum, London, auf: Donoghue 1901, S. 108/109, G. 192; stilistisch vergleichbar ist das Spiel Katalog Stuttgart 1968, Kat. Nr. 95."

I believe Hoffmann is referring to the book catalogue titled Spielkarten aus aller Welt: vom Mittelalter bis zu Gegenwart. Ausstellungskatalog Staatsgalerie Stuttgart, 1968. I was wondering if anyone on this forum had the book as I would like to see what Hoffmann is referring to. There are such books for sale on amazon in Germany but buying them from overseas not knowing what is inside them is a risky and expensive business.

Please let me know if I should post this elsewhere on this forum. Thank you :)

Re: German Lenormand 1846 / Spiel der Hoffnung 1799

#59
Update for cross-referencing purposes, as per my recent post in the coffee grounds thread, below is my very short summary (as posted on my blog) of the current situation regarding research into the original Lenormand card meanings:
See also: "A New Lenormand Deck Discovery" by Mary K. Greer, a blog post about her discovery of a 1796 deck of 32 "emblematical cards" in the British Museum. Thirty of the 32 cards in the 1796 deck are included in the 36 card Lenormand deck. The 1796 deck is described as "the coffee pack" in its accompanying booklet "because the figures are borrowed from those represented by the grounds in the cup". The booklet contains an explanation of the emblematical figures which is based on coffee grounds divination and closely resembles the above set of Lenormand card meanings published in 1846. There is also an inspirational proverb on each card.

Re: German Lenormand 1846 / Spiel der Hoffnung 1799

#60
Thanks, a nice finding by Mary.

I found book & cards here ...
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/c ... more-views

... as far I got, the book had been a problem for Mary earlier.

There's a story of 1793 ...

Image

Image


... then there's the Empress in 1794 ...

Image


... and then there's an English production in 1796 ...

Image


... and then there are 3 games, which one can do with the cards ...

Image


... from which the first is only short described, the second with some length and the third in this way ...

Image


The author (A?) stays an anonymous. The whole mystery (again) is from Egypt.

***************

The Empress, if this part of the story is true, would have been this girl ...

Image


... Maria Theresa of Naples and Sicily (6 June 1772 – 13 April 1807)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Ther ... and_Sicily
Maria Theresa was described as easy-going with a sensuous appearance. She loved masquerades and carnivals, and participated in every ball even while she was pregnant.

Hedwig Elizabeth Charlotte of Holstein-Gottorp described the view of Maria Theresa and the relationship between the couple in her famous diary during her visit to Vienna in 1798–99:

The Empress is reputed to be so jealous that she does not allow him to take part in social life or meet other women. Vicious tongues accuse her of being so passionate that she exhausts her consort and never leaves him alone even for a moment. Although the people of Vienna cannot deny that she is gifted, charitable and carries herself beautifully, she is disliked for her intolerance and for forcing the Emperor to live isolated from everyone. She is also accused of interesting herself in unimportant matters and socializing exclusively with her lady-companions. With them she spends her evenings singing, acting out comedies and being applauded.

I February 1799, her seeming indifference to the revolution against her parents in Naples attracted some disfavour in Vienna. Hedwig Elisabeth Charlotte also recounts a scene described to her by a foreigner, who bribed his way into the private park at Laxenburg and came to witness a scene between the couple:

"He saw the Emperor sitting on a bench, alone in his thoughts. Immediately, the Empress came to fetch him, and he exlaimed: "Can't you ever leave me alone, so that I may breathe for one moment? For God's sake, don't follow me around all the time."
Both were "somehow" from Italy, he "from Florence" and she "from Naples or so". And the Holy Roman Empire was near to its end (1806). The pair survived as Emperor and Empress of Austria, but she not long (1807) and he longer (1825) with 2 wives after her and another first wife before her.

*********************

It's curious, that another empress from Italy, Bianca Maria Sforza, also got some fame for her playing card use.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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