Huck wrote:
We have the feature, that the Cary-Yale in contrast to the majority of known decks, uses a 16 inside its structure. This point can't be disputed. Would you assume, that a game inventor, who made the first step to such a structure, didn't think of chess in his idea in the known scenario (14th/15th century, chess was very popular)?

Its self-evident that the inventor did not think of chess:
1. The 64 squares of chess have nothing to do with the known card counts of triofi decks.
2. The very rules of chess (e.g., a rook moving orthogonically, a bishop diagonally) have absolutely nothing to do with card playing or trump taking.
3. The 8 "court" playing pieces of chess have nothing to do with the much larger series of trump subjects which do not come in pairs - there is no bishop, no rook, no knight and even the queen/king are not the empress/emperor (the latter theoretically ruled over such local dynasties ruled over by kings/queens/dukes). You have to bend the facts - in the case of the queen/king - or completely make something up for everything else, egregiously so in regard to making the 1 and 10 pips = rooks.

The only thing you have left is the number 16. Everything else is your mascarade - you put the masks of the trumps over the chess pieces and thereby make them equivalent.

There is an easy way to explain the 16 cards of the CY: My theory of the Florentine CVI deck reflecting the original ~1440 deck is as straight forward as Occam's razor...
1. There are three couples in the Love card (CVI="Anghiari") which get replaced in the 1441 CY marriage card by a single couple; therefore...
2. In the CY deck the court cards are expanded to 6 (3 couples) to retain the original iconography of the 3 couples; and to be clear there are three women for three men in the CY court cards. There is "courting" in the court (that lead to a marriage depicted in the Love card) - a straight forward explanation that does not require any masking but does result in the coincidence of there being 16 cards which happens to match chess. Since both, love and chess, were courtly pursuits the coincidence may have felt appropriate but the only significance of the three male and female court cards was courting.

Phaeded

... :-) ...

As I said, I already know, that Trionfi cards are made from paper and chess figures usually from wood or other material.

Phaeded wrote: The only thing you have left is the number 16. Everything else is your mascarade - you put the masks of the trumps over the chess pieces and thereby make them equivalent.

Yes, nice, that you understand that. The essential part of an allegory is, that it puts a mask on other elements or ideas.
Chess itself is already an allegory - for society, battles and the dangers in a kingdom. The Trionfi cards are naturally also already allegorical. Their only game function is just, that they present a hierarchical row. The iconographic content is a variable, which could be filled with all and everything. For instance with chess figures or with other allegorical ideas to the chess figures. But naturally also with other ideas, as with animals as in the Animals Tarock. Or with buildings, social scenes, butterflies, flowers, basket ball players, famous Lego-Männchen etc., just according the taste of the commissioner or artist.


http://www.reasonablyclever.com/tarot/revisions.html

Well, I agree, that Lego-Männchen are not plausible as Trionfi card content during 15th century.

If you wish to speak about the idea of an Anghiari battle deck, please go to the relevant thread or create a new one. Please don't pollute places, which actually have already their own theme. I would appreciate it, if you give this your idea an own terrain.

Huck wrote:
Please don't pollute places, which actually have already their own theme. I would appreciate it, if you give this your idea an own terrain.

I'm guilty of adding tangents to the threads - I can respect that request Huck and will try to refrain from doing so going forward.

Back on point to Ferrara 1433 (but not sure if this should go on your Chess thread, but most of your posts do link back to chess ;-): a masquerade, perhaps connected to a ball/dance hall (however temporarily arranged), would seem like a good parallel for a chessboard on which the various pieces/actors move about. However, even if the number of divinities was exactly 16 why aren't you looking for 32 pieces/actors? I'm sure this fundamental issue of the chess theory has been addressed elsewhere by you but I've not seen it. So to put it another way - a complete chess set has 32 pieces, so if you are going to ignore half of the pieces why not ignore the non-descript pawns (which are hardly befitting of divinities in either Marziano or Marrasio) and instead have 2 kings, 2 queens, 4 knights, etc.?

At all events it would be interesting to know if the Ferrara masquerade appropriated an existing festival in Ferrara, such as the carnival masquerades in Florence. A tantalizing figure close to the number 16 can be observed in 1491 when Lorenzo organized 15 triumphs along the line of those celebrated by Paulus Emilius in ancient Rome (see M. Plaisance, Florence in the Time of the Medici: Public Celebrations, Politics, and Literature in the 15th and 16th Centuries, p. 24).

Phaeded

Phaeded wrote:

Huck wrote:
Please don't pollute places, which actually have already their own theme. I would appreciate it, if you give this your idea an own terrain.

I'm guilty of adding tangents to the threads - I can respect that request Huck and will try to refrain from doing so going forward.

Back on point to Ferrara 1433 (but not sure if this should go on your Chess thread, but most of your posts do link back to chess ;-): a masquerade, perhaps connected to a ball/dance hall (however temporarily arranged), would seem like a good parallel for a chessboard on which the various pieces/actors move about. However, even if the number of divinities was exactly 16 why aren't you looking for 32 pieces/actors? I'm sure this fundamental issue of the chess theory has been addressed elsewhere by you but I've not seen it. So to put it another way - a complete chess set has 32 pieces, so if you are going to ignore half of the pieces why not ignore the non-descript pawns (which are hardly befitting of divinities in either Marziano or Marrasio) and instead have 2 kings, 2 queens, 4 knights, etc.?

At all events it would be interesting to know if the Ferrara masquerade appropriated an existing festival in Ferrara, such as the carnival masquerades in Florence. A tantalizing figure close to the number 16 can be observed in 1491 when Lorenzo organized 15 triumphs along the line of those celebrated by Paulus Emilius in ancient Rome (see M. Plaisance, Florence in the Time of the Medici: Public Celebrations, Politics, and Literature in the 15th and 16th Centuries, p. 24).

Phaeded

As I already noted, Evrart de Conty used 32 units chosen from the material of the Roman de la Rose in his "echecs amoureux" (Chess of lovers ... c. 1398; he builds a clear relation between the 32 figures of chess and the 32 allegorical figures ). Additionally he used 16 gods, although he didn't build a clear relation between chess figures and gods (as far I could detect it; the text is very long [1000 pages], old French and difficult to study).

I think, that Chaucer used 32 figures in his Canterbury Tales. It seems, that they related to chess, but Chaucer hides this connection ... hiding such connections was a poetical aim, it depends on the reader to detect it. If you shouldn't find anybody, who claims, that the Canterbury Tales would be related to chess, you can draw your conclusions about it.

If a writer made an arrangement with 16 figures (like Cessolis) or with 32 figures (like Conty) depended totally on the decision of the relevant renaissance writer ... it's not my choice. Cessolis individualized the pawns, and that was relative early, likely related to "individual pawns" already used in Eastern chess variants.

I don't think, that this was a traditional festivity in 1433/34 in Ferrara. Likely it belonged to a series of experiments with "new theater" in this period, which seems to have come up in the 1420s. I don't have good material about this question.

I don't think, that I everywhere write about Chess Tarot, but if somebody asks me something about it, I naturally answer.

In ...

Basini Parmensis poetae opera praestantiora: 2. Della vita e de'fatti di Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta ... commentario del conte Francesco Gaetano Battaglini
by Basinio Basini, Laurentius Drudius, Ireneo Affò, conte Angelo Battaglini, conte Francesco Gaetano Battaglini
ex typographia Albertiniana, 1794

http://books.google.de/books?id=WYEcAQA ... pi&f=false

The source was used also at ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=950&p=15419&sid=e9 ... 683#p15419
... in discussion of matters around the date 16 September 1440.

A report to Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta's wedding with Ginevra d'Este at begin 1434:




For Carlo Malatesta, husband to Vittoria Colonna, mentioned in the text:
http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/car ... ografico)/

*********

The wedding of Malatesta and Ginevra had been arranged in early 1433 and was announced at 22 February 1433.
(see same source at page 306).


The arrangement had a certain context with the death of Galeotto Roberto Malatesta, elder brother of Sigismondo Malatesta, who had been married to Margeritha (* 1404), another daughter of Niccolo d'Este and half-sister to Ginevra. Both had married in 1427. Galeotto Roberto died at 10 October 1432.
http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/gal ... ografico)/

The 3 Malatesta brothers (Galeotto Roberto, Sigismondo Pandolfo and Domenico, all illegitime sons of Pandolfo Malatesta) became heirs of their uncle Carlo Malatesta.
Carlo and Pandolfo Malatesta had a very unlucky battle at Zagonara in the service of Florence against troops of Filippo Maria Visconti in July 1424.

Visconti: 4000 cavalli, 4000 fanti; fiorentini: 8000/9000 cavalli e 2000/3000 fanti. Durata: 5 ore. Scontro tra due cavallerie pesanti sotto una pioggia dirotta che colpisce di traverso i fiorentini (stanchi peraltro per una lunga marcia) quasi accecandoli, mentre i viscontei l’hanno alle spalle. I milanesi incominciano a ritirarsi portando i fiorentini su un luogo paludoso dove sono disfatti da Angelo della Pergola. Secondo i calcoli del Morelli i fiorentini perdono 5000 cavalli e 2000 fanti; per l’Albizzi 2600 cavalli; per l’Ammirato ed il Cambi 3200 cavalli e tutti i bagagli. I fiorentini subiscono un danno valutato sui 300000 scudi.

http://condottieridiventura.it/~condott ... /2721-1420

Carlo Malatesta became then personal prisoner of Filippo Maria Visconti, who to the surprise of others treated his prisoner with great comfort.

Bianca Maria Visconti was born in 31st of May 1425, which naturally would mean, that her mother became pregnant around June/July 1424. Filippo Maria Visconti, who hadn't a child till then, should have been very happy, when he realized his lovers pregnancy, cause the missing heir of Milan was his major problem all his life (naturally Filippo Maria Viconti hoped for a male heir, but it became a daughter ... but in the special time Filippo Maria nturally didn't know that).
Filippo's rather good mood in this period might have been a part of the condition, that Carlo Malatesta had been treated so well.
It might have been the opportunity, when the Michelino deck was produced. Filippo Maria had to celebrate something. He prepared a Trionfo for June 1425. It really took place, although it was only a daughter and not a son.

If this was so ... it's naturally only "justified specualation", not more ... then Carlo Malatesta might have witnessed the creative process and the arrangement of the 16 gods in the Michelino deck from rather close distance. Under this condition it would be really not a surprise to see "ideas about 16 gods" reappear at the wedding of one of his heirs.

Carlo Malatesta had chess symbols in his heraldry. Filippo Maria Visconti is said to have loved chess. He arranged a chess club in Milan in 1427 (so relatively short after 1424), possibly cause he thought, that his condottieri should learn something about strategy. In 1429 a master player visited his court.

Actually Filippo Maria Visconti made a rather bad move in November 1424 (so in the time of Carlo Mantegna's "visit").
He disappointed Carmagnola, likely cause he feared, that Carmagnola had become too powerful. Carmagnola left the scene in a fury. This took place in Abbiategrasso, the castle, in which Bianca Maria was raised later. Likely Carlo Malatesta was present then.

In 1427 Filippo Maria made Carlo Malatesta leader of a big army. At the battle of Maclodio in October the Venetian army under Carmagnola is reported to have made 10.000 prisoners, between them Carlo Malatesta.

Well, these are just some of the contexts.

***********
Another passage of the source ...




I understand (hopefully correctly with my weak Italian), that Ginevra got a son in September 1437 and there had been a general happiness about it with some festivities with tournaments and dancing. A common feature at this time ... The boy was named Galeotto Roberto.
It's a little surprizing, that later in the source it's written, that Ginevra died childless. Possibly this means, that the son had died between 1437-1440. But I couldn't detect a note about it.

He's not identical to Robert Malatesta, the later condottiero, who died in 1482. This one was born illegitimate 1441/1442 by Vannetta dei Toschi di Fano
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Malatesta

************

Perhaps one should note, that at ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=762
... there's a note

5. A paper register containing a will (29 February 1432) and inventory (16 August 1432) of Isabella Gonzaga Malatesta (1463? - 1432) notes "tre gioghi de carte grande" between other things of minor value in a chest.

For this note I added later:

Francesco Gonzaga (1366-1407)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_I_Gonzaga
... is the young man, who ordered the production of a worthwhile deck in 1388 in Mantova, then 22 years old and married to a daughter of Bernarbo Visconti. It's the same man, who in 1407 after his death had two playing card decks in his inventory.
The woman (Isabetta Gonzaga Malatesta (1463? - 1432)), also mentioned in the above article, who had after her death in 1432 three playing card decks in her inventory, had been ...

A2. [3m.] Ludovico II, Capitano del Popolo e Signore di Mantova (1369-82), Signore di Reggio (1369-71), *1334, +X.1382; m.16.2.1365 Alda d'Este (*18.6.1333 +1381)

B1. Francesco I, Signore di Mantova, Capitano del Popolo (1382-1407), vicario imperiale, *1366, +8.3.1407; 1m: 1380 Agnese Visconti (*ca 1362 +1391); 2m: 1393 Margherita Malatesta (+28.2.1399), dau.of Galeotto Signore di Rimini by Elisabetta da Varano dei Signori di Camerino
C1. [2m.] Gianfrancesco I, Signore di Mantova e Capitano del Popolo (1407-33), 1st Marchese di Mantova (1433-44), *1395, +Mantova 23.9.1444; m.1409 Paola Malatesta (*1393 +1449), dau.of Carlo I Signore di Rimini by Elisabetta Gonzaga dei Signori di Mantova
D1. Ludovico III "il Turco", Marchese di Mantova (1444-78), *Mantova 5.6.1414, +Goito 12.6.1478; m.Mantova 12.11.1433 Barbara von Hohenzollern (*1423 +7.11.1481)
.....
.....
B2. Elisabetta, +31.7.1432; m.1386 Carlo I Malatesta Signore di Rimini (+13.9.1429)
B3. [natural] Febo, he had further issue

... Elisabetta Gonzaga Malatesta, a cousin to Francesco I, but also she is mother-in-law to the son of Francesco I. And she was wife to Carlo Malatesta (the one, who had been prisoner to Filippo Maria Visconti in 1424 ... a time, in which was possibly the Michelino deck produced).

If I remember correctly she lived then in the household f the above mentioned Galeotto Roberto Malatesta, who had died then in the same year 1432.

*************

Other notes of possible importance:

1424: 18th of September, Parisana wrote from the Portomaggiore residence to Ferrara asking for two packs "cartiselle de quelle de docena", worth around 4 or 5 soldi per pack (relatively cheap). 3 days later she wrote again and notes, that she had received the two packs "sent to be used by our girls", probably refering to her daughters (both ca. 5 years old).

http://trionfi.com/parisina-playing-cards

It has to be noted, that one of the mentioed girls (5 years old) hasd been just Ginevra, who married Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta.

Parisina was killed by her husband Niccolo d'Este cause of adultery with Ugo, the eldest son of Niccolo, that should be nown. Since then till 1434 (the year of the wedding of Ginevra we have no playing card notes from Ferrara). Possibly Niccolo was shocked about all this drama and saw some responsibility in all gaming and gambling.

For 1434 we have the note for the production of 2 playing card decks in 1434 in Florence:
(“nel 1434 il Marchese Nicolo III. Faceva pagare a Ser Ristoro e compagni in Florence sette Fiorini d’oro prezzo di due mazzi di carticelle mandatogli a Ferrara”).
Niccolo d'Este got then 2 decks from Florence ... possibly for the occasion of the wedding of Ginevra.