Re: collection Germany/Austria/Switzerland

#11
Huck wrote: Well, the idea was to exchange Pope and Popess, and the major part of these exchanges might have been, to make Tarot decks acceptable for protestant regions. But once it was born as a habit, it could be imitated for other reasons (in Catholic Bologna). The Strasbourg productions are earlier, if we follow Depaulis' argumentation.

I've some indication, that this exchange-technique was already done much earlier than the Strasbourg productions. I just work on an article.
The article is here now:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=837
It's about Johann Fischart and his Rabelais "translation". Dummett/McLeod and Depaulis think, that there is no tarau in Fischart's list. But there seems to be something abut Tarot in Fischart's article, as it seems. The author uses the expression "welsch Karten".
There's (from Fischart's not clear information) a suspicion, that in the city of Geneve might have used the "Bacchus on Wine barrel motif", perhaps before the Tarot game was prohibited in 1609.
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:I think it was already a habit in Florence and south (like on the Colonna sheet from Rome, where there is a Sultan numbered 5) to make the papi into secular or non-Christian figures, in the 16th century. Bologna was the last hold-out, until 1725. It reflects this southern trend, rather than the northern one.
Yes, there might be something earlier.

What I think ... after getting some line in late Tarot/Tarock developments in French, Swiss and German developments get a form of sorting, one should check the Italian developments again. What mirrors the "lost Tarot interest in France" in Italy? I don't have enough knowledge about this.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: collection Germany/Austria/Switzerland

#12
I was able to find a second "Tarock" document before 1752 (Depaulis and Radau offered literary notes since 1752).
1751: Own finding:
Auszug der neuesten Weltgeschichte : auf das Jahr ... ; 1751
Autor / Hrsg.: Groß, Johann Gottfried
Verlagsort: Erlangen ; Nürnberg
Signatur: Eph.pol. 28-1751
http://bavarica.digitale-sammlungen.de/ ... flC=person

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It appears in a political statement. France still had used taxes "as if in war" and is accused to prepare a new war (after the war in 1740-48). England shall note, that the French don't have this tax for card playing, but to improve their naval army. A possible new conflict is seen for interests at the African gold coast in Guinea.
The other early note was this:
1750/1751: Own finding:
Anakreontische Versuche, Volume 1
Johann Franz von Palthen
printed by Weitbrecht
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Johann Franz von Palthen (1724 - 1804) - worldcat has a lot of publications, but I don't found a good biography.
http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=au%3AJ ... ort_yr_asc
Worldcat offers the text partly as of 1750, books.google.com has it from 1751. The publication location is Stralsund, the author also published in Rostock. He is mentioned in a short biography of his father: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakob_Palthen ... "Ihr Sohn Johann Franz (1725–1804) wurde Advokatfiskal am Wismarer Tribunal."
The text:
http://books.google.de/books?id=xAdOAAA ... ck&f=false
The first article of this thread had been updated and contains various new items.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

... soon ...

#13
... 40 Minchiate decks were send to Colognia (this should be Köln) at 5th of January. Likely they will soon arrive and then they will be the "first Minchiate decks in Germany" ... :-)

Joke aside, this was the 5th of January, 1731, so long ago. But Franco Pratesi has found an interesting book in one of those Italian archives, which reports playing cards exports from Toscana to the rest of the world, between them 62517 Minchiate decks (period 1729 - 1762), from which 72.2 % went to Roma, 11.2 % to Siena, 12.6 % to the rest of Italy and 4.0 % = 2485 to all others. From the latter Cologne got totally 52 (with 12 others from 1761), and this is not fair, cause other German cities didn't get this much (I wonder, if the Farina family took them). Dresden had 12 and "Germania" had 34. Vienna, however, had 283. Portugal/Lissabon took the most of the foreign states: 63.5 % of the 2485.
Paris got 12 (1734) and 4 Minchiate arrived in Londra (London) in 1753. This should be - for the moment - the first English note to Minchiate.
The book is a number B, so possibly there is somewhere a number A. But there are doubts, if this is found.

I remember an early English deck experiment with similarities to Tarot. When was this and where have we worked on it?


The article is in work.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Tarot in England

#14
Hi, Huck,
Huck wrote:I remember an early English deck experiment with similarities to Tarot. When was this and where have we worked on it?
I'm not sure what you are thinking of, but back in 2007 I posted a number of items about Tarot in England, starting with Pinkerton's essay.

The 1861 Essay of William Pinkerton
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=88767

It even looks like the links still work.

Best regards,
Michael
We are either dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, or we are just dwarfs.

Re: collection Germany/Austria/Switzerland

#15
Thanks, that you remind me on this, but I thought of a specific deck with some similarity to Tarot in some cards and other allegoric motifs, and I think, the discussion is here in this Forum, but I don't remember any keyword, which I might search. I think, the date was about 1760, possibly 1770.
... :-) ... these last 3 months, in which I didn't care about playing cards, made me forget a lot of things. It's not so long ago, maybe 2-3 years.
The deck was more or less in the web.

************
Added:

Ah, I have it ... Hooper's Conversation cards ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=879

... and I wrote then: "Possibly a relative to Minchiate". Now we have 1753 Minchiate reaching England, and Hooper's cards were from 1775 and another, "Sentimental Conversation cards from c. 1770", also used for divination.

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Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: collection Germany/Austria/Switzerland

#16
Huck wrote:Thanks, that you remind me on this, but I thought of a specific deck with some similarity to Tarot in some cards and other allegoric motifs, and I think, the discussion is here in this Forum, but I don't remember any keyword, which I might search. I think, the date was about 1760, possibly 1770.
... :-) ... these last 3 months, in which I didn't care about playing cards, made me forget a lot of things. It's not so long ago, maybe 2-3 years.
The deck was more or less in the web.
This post? viewtopic.php?f=11&t=879#p12802

mjh
We are either dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, or we are just dwarfs.

Re: collection Germany/Austria/Switzerland

#18
I think,there was a constant flow of some Italian cards appearing occasionally in other countries, everything else would be not natural. But it didn't reach "the critical mass" to become something concrete.

1750 it exploded ... I think, that there is a concrete relation to the end of the Austrian succession war, which was finished in peace talking in Aachen (1748). But for the moment the concrete relation is not clear. More coffeehouses, more newspapers, more scientific societies, more international movement and communication. The world became "modern" ... and amused itself with Tarock and playing card divination. The peace endured only 7 years, as long as the seven years year of war (1755-62), which followed, but it was enough to establish Tarock.

Sounds a little bit like the Joseph-story, 7 good years, 7 bad years.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: collection Germany/Austria/Switzerland

#19
It's still in a state of development, but here is ...

1729: Earliest note of Minchiate in Austria (Vienna)
1731: Earliest note of Minchiate in Germany (Cologne)
1753: Earliest note of Minchiate in England (London)
... likely together with some other "earliest" events.

http://trionfi.cm/ev15 .... for the article "1729-1762: EXPORTS OF FLORENTINE MINCHIATE" (Franco Pratesi)

http://trionfi.com/0/ev/15/st/ ... for the lists 1729-1762

It seems to me, that for the 40 decks for Cologne one likely has to think of the larger colony of Italians in Cologne, to which also belonged Signore Johann Maria Farina, who started his business in 1709 and later called his product "Eau de Cologne" and a lot of people got crazy about it, especially the high society of the time.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Goethe and Tarock

#20
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http://books.google.de/books?id=rjtsp2e ... ck&f=false

That's the begin of "Wilhelm Meisters Theatralische Sendung" (by Goethe). In the course of the action Benedict Meister, father of Wilhelm Meister, meets his mother in the kitchen, and the mother had made puppets for a puppet-theater, which she desires to show to the children at Christmas. The result of the action is, that the young Wilhelm Meister gets an attraction for the theater. The figures had been Saul, King David and Goliath and others.
Full German text:
http://www.bela1996.de/literature/goethe-wmts1.html

That's here from German wiki to Goethe:
"Schon früh kam der Junge in Kontakt mit Literatur. Das begann mit den Gutenachtgeschichten der Mutter und mit der Bibellektüre in der frommen, lutherisch-protestantischen Familie. Zu Weihnachten 1753 bekam er von der Großmutter ein Puppentheater geschenkt. Das für diese Bühne vorgesehene Theaterstück lernte er auswendig und führte es immer wieder mit Begeisterung gemeinsam mit Freunden auf."
It says, that Goethe had early contact with literature. Good night stories of the mother are mentioned and bible stories according the protestant traditions. At Christmas 1753 the grandmother presented a puppet theater and young Goethe learned the first play by heart and repeated the show with his friends very often.

The Wilhelm Meister project became a very long work, I think, it's the longest of all his many works.
It has a lot of autobiographical details.
Wilhelm Meister ist der Name des Titelhelden von Johann Wolfgang von Goethes folgenden Romanen:

Wilhelm Meisters theatralische Sendung („Urmeister“), ab 1776, im Druck 1911
Wilhelm Meisters Lehrjahre, erschienen 1795/96
Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre, ab 1807, im Druck 1821, erweiterte Fassung 1829
The "Wilhelm Meisters theatralische Sendung" was written, but never published in Goethe's life time, but it got the expression "Urmeister". Instead Wilhelm Meisters Lehrjahre and Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre were published. The "theatralische Sendung" was detected in 1910 and published.

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Barbara Schulthess, who met Goethe during his first travel in Switzerland (1775), had once the text. She often got the newest manuscripts of Goethe, likely Goethe had been interested in her opinion. The name of her husband was "David".
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Schulthess
Barbara and Goethe had a long letter exchange. Finally both burnt their letters.

***********

Well, it's of interest for us, that Goethe in the first sentence of this long occupation with Wilhelm Meister embedded the Tarock evening of Benedict Meister.

The Goethe research has the opinion, that Goethe learned about Tarock in Wetzlar, which doesn't seem plausible, cause Goethe had a close connection to the sons of Breitkopf, and Breitkopf had - beside his other occupations - also a playing card fabric for some time and this produced Tarock cards.

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http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks06/d04357/d04357.htm
"1770 gründete er eine Spielkartenfabrik, die er jedoch 1782 wieder verkaufte"
http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/ADB:Breit ... %C3%A4rtel

Maybe the Tarock production started later.

Goethe shall have made a teaching poem about the Quadrille-Taroc as the "crown of the games" - in the relevant society in Wetzlar, where his work "Das Leiden des jungen Werther" played.

Goethe wrote this work as an reaction on a suicide of a young man in Wtzlar, that he knew: Karl Wilhelm Jerusalem
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Wilhelm_Jerusalem

This is a report about the "true action", not from Goethe's fictive story:
In the afternoon
(Tuesday) he goes to Secretary H.'s. Until eight o'clock
in the evening they play tarock together. Annchen
Brandt was also there ; Jerusalem accompanied her home.
As they walk, Jerusalem often strikes his forehead, gloom-
ily and repeatedly says : " If one were but dead, — if one
were but in heaven!" Annchen joked him about it; he
bargains for a place by her side in heaven, and at parting
he says : " It is agreed, then, that I shall have a place by
you in heaven."
More at ...
http://archive.org/stream/lifeworksofgo ... e_djvu.txt
Other perspective (doesn't mention "Tarock"):
http://books.google.de/books?id=k8YuAAA ... ck&f=false

Goethe's Werther hadn't the Tarock scene.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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