Re: collection Germany/Austria/Switzerland

#21
Recently I wrote this about a cardmaker in Geneve 1546 and about Calvinism ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=994&p=14786&hilit=troggn#p14786

It actually belongs to this thread (Switzerland part).

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I stumbled about this deck ...

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in Donogue 1901
https://archive.org/stream/aen4312.0001 ... r+hoffnung

I looked the deck up ...

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http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/c ... By=&page=1

The name of the cardmaker is curious. I checked the the name Schnieper and Andoni and found, that they seems mostly used in Switzerland. I checked the name distribution in Switzerland ...
http://www.verwandt.ch/karten/absolut/schnieper.html

... and found, that the name appears mostly near the region Lucerne/Nidwalden, which I consider as a Catholic region with Tarot production in Switzerland (as earlier in this thread).
Schnieper in the German name distribution doesn't appear. Nothing, no entry.

The monogram FXB can only mean Xaver in the middle, and that's mostly used in Southern parts o German language distribution. So with this I feel rather sure, that this is a deck from Catholic Switzerland near Lucerne/Nidwalden.
From 1754, that's rather early.

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Oh, what a nice finding .... isn't that a fantastic Fool?

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... and not only that !!!!!
That's the Schober deck from 1750, and, as far I know, the first "Taros" deck in Austria in its time (at least what we know of its begin). Depauls had it reported.

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Feine Taros bei Ferdinand Schober in Neuhaus 1750

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Ferdi Schoper

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Aufrichtig gespielt und wohlgemein erhalt das geldt und gutte freunt - 1751
(likely 1751 is the production year and 1750 the begin of the workshop; the words mean, that one should play in a honorable way and one would keep his money and the friendship)

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And this inscription on the Chariot I don't understand. "Wadelin" is a name, but not a German name. It seems to be English or from Wales.
I see a Rick Wadelin or better an A.C. Rick Wadelin 1750, but that really sounds English.

Perhaps an owner of the deck, who brought it to England and to the British Museum. We have to thank him for this, otherwise it would be lost.

All of the deck is here:
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/c ... more-views

And that's the catalog text
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Also rather early Neumur in Mannheim

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http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/c ... id=3157438

And an interesting Magician of Hes in Augspurg

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Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: collection Germany/Austria/Switzerland

#24
There are interesting opinions about the German Tarock game Cego.

Gerold Blümle: Das badische Nationalspiel Cego
http://www.cego-online.de/tl_files/docu ... 120903.pdf

According this text the game was (plausibly) invented by soldiers of Baden, who fought in the Napoleon army in Spain in 1808/13. Likely they used an Austrian reduced Deck (or French cards reduced to 54 cards), to which they imported some Spanish rules used in the game L'Hombre.

A request of 1932, in which was asked, which card games were played in different locations, gave the curious result, that the game was played in the old frontiers of Baden, but only in 6 locations outside of Baden (I think, the request was limitated to Germany). The final result is shown on this map:

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http://www.cego.de/

commented with
Verbreitungskarte aus "Das badische Nationalspiel "Zego" und die anderen in Baden und an Badens Grenze volksüblichen Kartenspiele" (Schlager, 1952). Die einzigen Orte in den in den 30er Jahren außerhalb Baden und Hohenzollern Cego gespielt wurde, waren Schramberg (1), Mariazell (2), Dunningen (3), Oberflacht (4), Neuhausen (5) und Frittlingen (6). Auf dieser Karte ist eine Ortschaft angegeben, in der Cego "mit Leidenschaft" gespielt wird. Bei dieser Ortschaft handelt es sich um Pfullingen.

Die Quelle für diese Karte ist "Der Atlas für deutsche Volkskunde". Das Material befindet sich wahrscheinlich in der Universität Frankfurt und wird von dem Deutschen Seminar der Universität betreut. Ob das Material noch dort ist, wäre zu erfragen...
The small points on the map mean, that Cego is noted between other games, the big points mean, that Cego is the only game noted. The map of Baden and its frontiers are bizarre, and it looks as a very strange and not accidental result, that the game had this strong popularity just in these limitations with only few exceptions.

In this limited space the game knows many variants. See also McLeod at pagat.com
http://www.pagat.com/tarot/cego.html

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A sort of Cego-Championship is running for more than 10 years. The reports speaks of 12 tournaments in each year at different locations.
http://www.suedkurier.de/region/schwarz ... 12,5866935
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: collection Germany/Austria/Switzerland

#25
hi Mike,

You asked for evidence, that the region around Nidwalden/Lucerne had Tarot de Marseille ...

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http://books.google.de/books?id=RtgTAQA ... e&q=paiche

I translate the central sentence: "The German language Cantons of the inner Switzerland produced - against expectations - Marseille Tarots, so Buolman at Rotzloch [15 km from Lucerne], Bernhard Niklaus Lang at Baden (North of Zürich] or A. Paiche at Bern."
The German language part is rather big, but Buolman in Rotzloch is rather close to the Nidwalden region. The Paiche Tarot is given at Kaplan II, p. 334, given at 326 as from "c. 1780", clearly a Marseille Tarot.

At this my modified map one can see the German language regions.

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The following German sentence (unfinished) seems to contradicts the expectation, that the Besancon version might have had a Catholic reason.
(... well, I know only the snippet, and not the author of the passage).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: collection Germany/Austria/Switzerland

#26
I've placed at ...

Troggen / Swiss Wordbook
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1023

... a report to a Swiss Wordbook, which had been the base of an IPCS article in 1983 by P. Kopp (("Das Tarockspiel in der Schweiz", The Playing Card , vol 12 No. 2 (1983), pp. 45-59) and had introduced the date 1572 as the first Swiss note to "Troggen" inclusive some other notes about Troggen.

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Based on a German map of Swiss Cantons ...
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanton_(Schweiz)
... I tried to locate the description of Dummett/McLeod about Troggen in Switzerland in modern times (20th century). For 18th century they state, that the game was played everywhere in Switzerland (if that's true, I don't know).

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According Dummett/McLeod ...
Dr. Eberhard stated 1978, that the game was played in four areas: Grisons (Graubünden), Wallis, Fribourg and Jura. AG Müller around the same time confirmed this, adding, that the game in Fribourg almost has died (Dummett/McLeod found some players).

Dummett and McLeod have added some other information, I gave these smaller red points on the map. Their article mentions different names for the cards and the games:

Grison: "Troccas", 78 cards (Besancon), Grison said to be the location with highest concentration of players, at the almost Western part of Graubünden with Romansh language, named locations are Disentis (proud 2000 inhabitants, more than 1000 m high), Ilanz (2000 inhabitants, 700 m) and Chur (35.000 inhabitants; 600 m)

Wallis: "Troggu", with 62 cards, Italian suits, earlier Tarot de Marseille-style, nowadays Besancon

Fribourg: "Le Tape", with 66 cards, Marseille type

Rheinfelden / Stein an Rhein: "Cego", with 54 cards as in Baden (Germany)

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From this it seems, that Troggen in Switzerland survived in modern times mainly in regions with mountains and not much population, which more easily could stay connected to "old traditions".
A curiosity is the survival of Cego in Baden, which is a region with relative much population. Actually a Tarock variant, which developed very late, parallel to Skat (also at begin of 19th century), which developed to become very popular in Germany in 19th/20th century.
"Baden-Würtemberg", about twice the site of old "Baden", has about 7 million inhabitants, the a little larger Switzerland about 8 millions, but the mountain regions are generally rather thin populated for natural reasons.

Youtube movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM4vfoSD8gM
Made in Muster, which is another name of Disentis (given as a center of "Troccas"). The people speak Romansh.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: collection Germany/Austria/Switzerland

#27
Huck wrote
I translate the central sentence: "The German language Cantons of the inner Switzerland produced - against expectations - Marseille Tarots, so Buolman at Rotzloch [15 km from Lucerne], Bernhard Niklaus Lang at Baden (North of Zürich] or A. Paiche at Bern."
Yes, I saw that. Thanks for the translation. I picked out the part about Rotzloch, but didn't notice the others. I guess it shows that when it comes to the German language Cantons of inner Switzerland, one shouldn't have expectations.

I was also interested in the sentence that stops midway. But I imagine that without the rest you can't tell even approximately what it says.

Re: collection Germany/Austria/Switzerland

#28
mikeh wrote: I was also interested in the sentence that stops midway. But I imagine that without the rest you can't tell even approximately what it says.
Well ... :-) ... there are some search engine tricks ...

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... is prolonged by Google with ...
Somit+widerlegen+die+erhaltenen+Exemplare+einen+zusammenhang+zwischen+konfession+und+Tarocktyp%2C+wonach+etwas+das+%22Besanconer%22+Tarock+eher+bei+den+deutschsprachigen+Katholiken%2C+das&tbm=bks
"Somit widerlegen die erhaltenen Exemplare einen Zusammenhang zwischen Konfession und Tarocktyp, wonach etwa das «Besancconer» Tarock eher bei den deutschsprachigen Katholiken, das «Marseiller» Tarock bei den Protestanten beliebt ... Im katholischen Kanton Freiburg wurden aber nie «Besanconer» Tarocke hergestellt."
I translate: "Therefore the extant examples [= Tarot decks] contradict a context between confession and Tarock type, whereby for instance the Besancon Tarot was popular for German Catholics and the Marseille Tarot popular for the German Protestants ... [something is missing here]. But in the Catholic Canton Fribourg the Tarot de Besancon was never produced."
The sentence seems to answer the thesis of other researchers (possibly Depaulis, possibly Dummett, possibly sombody else), that there was a context between Catholic and Besancon.

... :-) ... my own hypothesis would be, that the Besancon was made more for Protestants, and the Marseille Tarot more for Catholics, especially in regard of the condition, that Tarock-Troggen in Switzerland was also addressed as "Martin-Luther-Spiel" and Martin Luther was interpreted as the monk on the Hermit card.
compare viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1023

Definitely the Besancon-hermit looks more like a monk than the hermit-style of the Marseille Tarot. It's just the question, who had more hairs.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/c ... id=3157461



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http://www.luther.de/en/leben/moench.html
Luther as a monk

Later we get in the Tarot the idea of a Capuchin ...

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Eteilla before developed a "Traitre/Trahison" card from the monk/hermit.

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The Petit Oracle of Dames splits it in a Sage and Trahison.

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Etteilla, as far I remember, got some ideas from Strasbourg, which is possibly the city, which developed the Tarot Besancon. "Etteilla himself reveals he knows the Strasbourg cardmakers very well", DDD p. 81. He became burgess of Strasbourg in April 1777. He worked as Kupferstichhändler then. He joined a guild.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Some notes to Switzerland ...

#29
Selected early playing card notes from the Schweizerisches Idiotikon
https://digital.idiotikon.ch/

Year 1367, Bern

https://digital.idiotikon.ch/idtkn/id10 ... 3/mode/1up
Bd. X. Sp. 184
The well-known playing card prohibition of Bern
Year 1389

https://digital.idiotikon.ch/idtkn/id10 ... 3/mode/1up
Bd. X. Sp. 184
Source: Z RB. Die Rat- und Richtebücher der Stadt Zürich seit dem 14. Jhdt (Mskr. im Zürcher Staatsarchiv; nach Auszügen von Heinrich Wepf).
Somebody had his goods "verkartet" and "verspielt", likely through gambling with "Karten". A case of Justice in the city Zürich.

Year 1408 + 1450

https://digital.idiotikon.ch/idtkn/id_k ... 3/mode/2up
Bd X, Sp. 146
1408
Source: Inventory of a shop-owner
"two dozen card decks and 150 dice"
1450
Source: Z RB. Die Rat- und Richtebücher der Stadt Zürich seit dem 14. Jhdt (Mskr. im Zürcher Staatsarchiv; nach Auszügen von Heinrich Wepf).
Somebody had ruptured a card cause of anger. The owner of the deck demanded, that he should pay for the card.
Year 1414

Bd. X, Sp. 148
Source: AaRh. StR. Das Stadtrecht von Rheinfelden; bearb. und hg. von Friedrich Emil Welti. A[a]rau 1917 (Sammlung schweiz. Rechtsquellen XVI. Abt., 1. Teil, 7. Bd)
http://www.ssrq-sds-fds.ch/online/AG_I_ ... .html#p_51
Full text:
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Prohibition of the games "Lustlis" (with dice or with cards) and "Bocken" in Rheinfelden. This might be the oldest prohibition of these games I know of.
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see also:
New articles to Switzerland

Schaffhausen: 92 cards found
viewtopic.php?f=11&p=16348&sid=740295af ... f78#p16348

News from Willisau and their card players
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1066
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: collection Germany/Austria/Switzerland

#30
Pdf-file
Kartenspiel im spätmittelalterlichen Bern
by Claudia Engler (2007)
... (for search in the web)

The article has two notes of interest.

1. Kartenspiel was allowed in Bern in the year 1400.
Reference to Kopp, 1973, p. 130

2. After the siege of Zürich 1444 by the "Eidgenossen", to which also troops of Bern belonged, playing cards were found ... "in etlichen hüten, do sie gespielt hattend, noch würfel karten und spilbrett, ouch etlich gelt unter den tischen liegen."
Reference to Zehnder-Bona, 1976, p. 339
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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