ha ... oldest Tarot located 1517 .. no, 1502 :-) .. no, 1492

#1
Added later: Ross gave the comment:
this is the article of Chobaut, and he confuses all Latin-suited packs with Tarot.

Thierry and Esther Moench (who discovered the 1505 reference) have both combed the records in Avignon, following Chobaut's research, and 1505 remains the earliest date for the real "taraux".

Knowing about the Chobaut article (but not knowing it really, just from the snippets, that I found), I've to agree with the comment of Ross.

Nonetheless, that's my finding from today:

*************************
Well, an older book, from 1955, records ...

Provence historique: revue trimestrielle, Volume 5
by Fédération historique de Provence
Archives départementales., 1955
http://books.google.de/books?id=Tn4SAAA ... edir_esc=y



There's the 1517 ...







.... another 1517



.... and the 1502



There's the 1492

Well, that's not all, for sure ... further snippet research is necessary

... :-) ... and somebody should go to the library

****************

Well, that's all under the assumption, that these are not earlier errors. And with the assumption, that these "Tarots" are really Trionfi card similar objects.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: ha ... oldest Tarot located 1517 .. no, 1502 :-) .. no, 1492

#2
Ross a long time wrote from a person H. Chobaut, who made researches in 1955. This author is mentioned in the book for 5 times. One might have the suspicion, that the text is from him ... but no confirmation.
at a webpage I read, that the author Henri Chobaut worked for Provence historique. Maybe Henry Chobaut was on his way to detect this, what we see here, when he wrote the article with the 1507 date. Depaulis was 6 years old, when the book appeared.So one could possibly easily overlook this 2nd book, perhaps just assuming, that it contained the same article with the 1507 dating.
For a long time, it was believed that Rabelais' mention was the earliest. Thus I was shocked the first time I read an article from 1955, which mentioned "taraux" in 1507!

In 1955, H. Chobaut published a study of Avignon cardmakers, and noted the phrase "cards commonly called taraux" in a contract from 1507. However, he did not provide a transcript of the full document, or its catalogue number in the archives.

Chobaut's work went unnoticed by most tarot historians, and he is not mentioned by Dummett in 1980, Depaulis in 1984, Berti and Vitali in 1987 etc. However, at some point Thierry Depaulis re-read it and decided to go look for the original to confirm it. Dummett noted in 1993 (Il Mondo e l'Angelo) that Depaulis had at that point been unsuccessful in his search.

Sometime later, it appears that an archivist in Avignon in touch with Thierry did find the document referred to by Chobaut - however, Chobaut had misdated it: it was actually from 1505!

Thierry put this information in an article which was published in 2004 in The Playing Card. He also believes that the term "taraux" is French (not Occitan), and probably comes from Lyon, and that "tarocchi" is an Italianization of the French word. I don't know why he thinks it is a French and not Occitan word, except perhaps because he is certain that the "x" was silent, as it would be in modern French.

I'm not so sure; and in any case, the original document was in Latin, so I would expect a "phonetic" transcription of the word. Thus I believe the original pronunciation of the word was something like "tar-oaks". This would explain also how the Italian word came about.

Incidentally, the Italian researcher Adriano Franceschini discovered the earliest mention of "tarocchi" in Ferrara records also from 1505! (he discovered this probably over a decade ago, but few knew about it). The Avignon record is from December, the Ferrara (there are two) are from August. Thus, by 1505 the two different forms of this word were already in circulation.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: ha ... oldest Tarot located 1517 .. no, 1502 :-) .. no, 1492

#3
What confuses me is not the date. But the place.

My French is very poor, but the reference seems to place the Deck on Lyon, not in Milan (or Ferrara, or even Venice).

Anyway, is there a way to know if the Tarot referenced on the document is what we call Tarot today (with the 22 Major Arcana that we all love, even if they don't make much sense - or because of this) ?

The Cary-Yale (1441-1447), with is much later than the date the document provides, does not yet seem to fit the structure that we know. It has Faith, Hope, and Charity (witch would make a lot of sense). And just several years later, we have a Pierpont-Morgan Bergamo Visconti-Sforza with all the well known trumps. It always made sense for me that this schema was invented on north Italy, around 1450, probably in Milan, possibly by the Sforza and even, reasonably, on this last deck.

Does those new dates put a strong challenge on this?

Thanks,
What the heck was on the Tarot de Marseille original creator mind ?

Re: ha ... oldest Tarot located 1517 .. no, 1502 :-) .. no, 1492

#4
... :-) ...

This new date (if true) is a revolution ... the oldest younger date is 1505, and that's 13 years difference. And cards are dealt in very high numbers. A "grosse" likely means 12x12 = 144. If I understand the 1492 passage correctly, then there is talked of 5x144 = 720 Tarot games.Such a high number we don't have in other documents. And it's in France, and that's a surprise ... as there is not much of France elsewhere.

Well, and the question would be (likely) answered, that the word Tarot is from France.

No, we don't know, what sort of game this "Tarot" of France might have been. In an extreme version of interpretation it might be something like Cuccu or Malcontent ... :-) ... cause Malcontent became popular then in France. First we have to see, what the book really says, from a few snippets it's difficult to judge. When we know this, we can restart the puzzle.
Possibly France (or Lyon) made Tarot cards only for export, and then likely only to Italy. In Germany we have also real surviving cards with Italian suits.
There's a big gap between 1492 and 1502, and there's an Italy-France war in the meantime, which might have disturbed peaceful trade connections.

Well, first reading the source ... anything else is speculation. It's well known, that Lyon started a big playing card production in 1480-90, so all this isn't really surprising ... it was only strange, that the word Tarot didn't appear in early French documents.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: ha ... oldest Tarot located 1517 .. no, 1502 :-) .. no, 1492

#6
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:This is the article of Chobaut, and he confuses all Latin-suited packs with Tarot.

Thierry and Esther Moench (who discovered the 1505 reference) have both combed the records in Avignon, following Chobaut's research, and 1505 remains the earliest date for the real "taraux".
I feared, that it could be, after I noted the double 1955. But it looked rather dense ... and I found no tarot made in 1507 .... which expression he took for Tarot?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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