Bertrand wrote:I simply meant what I wrote : that Avignon, although part of the Papal States, was entirely within France borders, because I don't see the point in adding this to the chronology except if you mean to imply something about tarot circulation which then would need to be precise about Avignon location at the time ; so maybe, MAYBE, you should simply get rid of the "Avignon wasn't part of France" because anyone who has a serious interest in Tarot is normally aware of that - maybe you found out recently and were so amazed that you thought it was worth mentionning.
Or maybe you should continue doing this how you fancy, which will eventually lead to a huge unreadable list full of irrelevant data mixed with your extremely personal opinions like:ymapplause:the French hadn't an interest in Tarot, cause it used an Emperor, and the Emperor was not a French king.
I'll be fine either way
http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/ ... 61_map.htm
That's a map of 1461, and at the larger map (link) one sees a lot of other regions, which weren't France in 1461, but later became France. For Provence one can see a "to France 1481" and I think, that not all persons in Provence were very lucky about this.
I don't think, that everybody knows about the dynamic of changes of the borders of states just in the renaissance. That's quite an intellectual adventure to attempt to get an overview in all these changing times.
The entry of 1505 will anyway be changed and link to other material, for instance also a map and best naturally a map of 1505. But this is not easy to find. Actually also the Chobaut article is part of the story. He may be wrong in some points, but it's full of interesting material, and I believe, that not all is soooo wrong.
For "the French hadn't an interest in Tarot, cause it used an Emperor, and the Emperor was not a French king" ... I think, this is an argument. Playing cards were propaganda material, filled with heraldic material. Why should one
state allow another state to distribute such material, if it momentary hadn't a friendly connection with it? The relations between German/Spanish Empire and France were definitely stressed for a long period in 16th century. Why should have been king Francois happy about Tarot cards and allow a glorification of his enemy? Naturally there would have been the option to exchange some cards (for instance one might have changed the emperor to a French king and the Empress to French queen, but we have no evidence for such an action). What we have, is a more or less yawning nothing in matters of Tarot in France till 1570, as far documents are concerned. Well, this should have a reason.
Even 1505 is not a French document, as it comes from Avignon. And the documents of Philibert, the prince of Orange, are also not French, though they are written in French language. He fought for Charles V., and the documents refer to situations in Italy. Estienne in 1553 is just only a translation or modification of an Italian text as others.
Well, as I've seen, that the Avignon document was used for claims, that there were much indication of French Tarot interests already in first half of 16th century, I've added, that Avignon wasn't France in that time ... so, that it becomes clear, that there is no big argument for this hypothesis.