Re: Collection French Tarot dates 1500-1700

#11
Bertrand wrote: I simply meant what I wrote : that Avignon, although part of the Papal States, was entirely within France borders, because I don't see the point in adding this to the chronology except if you mean to imply something about tarot circulation which then would need to be precise about Avignon location at the time ; so maybe, MAYBE, you should simply get rid of the "Avignon wasn't part of France" because anyone who has a serious interest in Tarot is normally aware of that - maybe you found out recently and were so amazed that you thought it was worth mentionning.
Or maybe you should continue doing this how you fancy, which will eventually lead to a huge unreadable list full of irrelevant data mixed with your extremely personal opinions like
the French hadn't an interest in Tarot, cause it used an Emperor, and the Emperor was not a French king.
:ymapplause:

I'll be fine either way

Bertrand
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http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/ ... 61_map.htm

That's a map of 1461, and at the larger map (link) one sees a lot of other regions, which weren't France in 1461, but later became France. For Provence one can see a "to France 1481" and I think, that not all persons in Provence were very lucky about this.
I don't think, that everybody knows about the dynamic of changes of the borders of states just in the renaissance. That's quite an intellectual adventure to attempt to get an overview in all these changing times.

The entry of 1505 will anyway be changed and link to other material, for instance also a map and best naturally a map of 1505. But this is not easy to find. Actually also the Chobaut article is part of the story. He may be wrong in some points, but it's full of interesting material, and I believe, that not all is soooo wrong.

For "the French hadn't an interest in Tarot, cause it used an Emperor, and the Emperor was not a French king" ... I think, this is an argument. Playing cards were propaganda material, filled with heraldic material. Why should one
state allow another state to distribute such material, if it momentary hadn't a friendly connection with it? The relations between German/Spanish Empire and France were definitely stressed for a long period in 16th century. Why should have been king Francois happy about Tarot cards and allow a glorification of his enemy? Naturally there would have been the option to exchange some cards (for instance one might have changed the emperor to a French king and the Empress to French queen, but we have no evidence for such an action). What we have, is a more or less yawning nothing in matters of Tarot in France till 1570, as far documents are concerned. Well, this should have a reason.
Even 1505 is not a French document, as it comes from Avignon. And the documents of Philibert, the prince of Orange, are also not French, though they are written in French language. He fought for Charles V., and the documents refer to situations in Italy. Estienne in 1553 is just only a translation or modification of an Italian text as others.
Well, as I've seen, that the Avignon document was used for claims, that there were much indication of French Tarot interests already in first half of 16th century, I've added, that Avignon wasn't France in that time ... so, that it becomes clear, that there is no big argument for this hypothesis.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Collection French Tarot dates 1500-1700

#12
I think I might be somewhat responsible for Huck's emphasis on this point, which occasionally does merit being mentioned.

For instance, some French Tarotists earlier in the last decade (perhaps even before) like Kris Hadar, asserted that a Royal edict of 1701 mandated that all playing card plates be destroyed, and new ones made in accordance with regulations, which meant that any TdMs made after 1701 were corrupted to some extent, and we must look to packs made before then to get hints at the authentic tradition.

In a discussion about the Payen family of cardmakers on Aeclectic Tarot Forum in 2004, I noted that the Payens had a continuous presence in Avignon between the 17th and 18th centuries, and that Avignon was a Papal state, not under French law, so that any edict passed in France would presumably not apply to Avignon, and therefore the Payen TdMs could be considered "pure" even after 1701.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php? ... ostcount=9
1. Avignon did not become part of France until 1791; until then, it was a Papal dominion. According to Chobaut, who studied the Avignon cardmakers most deeply ("Les Maîtres-Cartiers d'Avignon du XVe Siècle à la Révolution" 1955) No Parisian or Royal Edict concerning cards was promulgated there until 1756 (no legislation concerning cardmakers whatsoever in fact) when the King forced the Pope to allow the same tariffs on cards from Avignon as in France. Avignon was effectively dominating the market with much cheaper cards, to the detriment of Marseilles.

Therefore the Payen family, who were cardmakers in Avignon from 1686 until after the Revolution (the first Payen had been a card-maker in Marseille until 1686), could easily have preserved an *unbroken* tradition, and Payen's 1713 deck from Avignon therefore does not represent a recreation after the destruction of 1701. In Avignon, there was no destruction.
Soon afterwards I checked the text of the edict in D'Allemagne, and found that Tarots were explicitly exempted from the general destruction of playing card moulds, so that even the Avignon-not-French argument was unnecessary. There was no "break" in the Tarot-making tradition in 1701, as Hadar and his followers had asserted.

http://tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=818458&postcount=3
Yes - tarot cards were expressly *exempted* from the edict. There was no destruction of the old tarot plates.

The edict is in D'Allemagne "Les cartes à jouer", vol. I, pp. 392-394. While the regular card plates had to be taken to the tax-office and broken, "A l'égard des autres cartes, nommées cartes à points ou blanches, et des tarots, seront tenus lesdits cartiers de les apporter imprimées en carton au bureau du fermier pour y être marquées de la marque, de méme que les autre cartes... Permettons néanmoins aux maîtres cartiers d'imprimer chez eux les cartes appelées tarots, ainsi qu'ils ont fait jusqu'à présent, à la charge de les apporter aux bureaux du fermier pour y être marquées comme ci-dessus et en être les droits payés."

"Regarding the other cards, called pointed or white cards, and tarots, the aforesaid cardmakers will be obliged to take them on card (uncut sheets?) to the tax-office to be stamped there with the stamp, like the other cards... Nevertheless, it is permitted to the master cardmakers to print the cards called tarots at their place as they have done up to the present, being charged to take them to the finance office to be stamped as above (with a new tax stamp), with their duty to be paid".

Cards were a major tax issue at this time, and cards had to be approved for sale in various locations, to assure the proper flow of tax.
So, the point about Avignon not being French until the Revolution is sometimes something useful to know. I also believe that not many people would know that fact, outside of people well-versed in French history. I don't think it is impertinent to mention it for historical clarity, in case it may prove relevant to some claim or for understanding some episode, such as the Payen example above.

Analogies may be drawn with Monaco, Andorra or San Marino - should the first just be considered "French" for historical descriptive purposes, the second Spanish (or French), and the third just "Italy"? Or should we note that they are independent principates, even though laying entirely within the geographical confines of a larger state?


APPENDIX - an additional post from the 2006 ATF thread -

http://tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=824826&postcount=5
For the cards subject to the edict, it was not permitted to print cards from those plates anymore.

Wooden plates generally got worn out and discarded. I think pear wood was the wood of choice, but I suppose any fine grained or dense wood, still soft enough to carve, would work. I don't know how long a plate lasts - there must be information somewhere. The Conver plates of 1760 still exist - Camoin published a deck printed from those plates in the 1960s, and the degeneration of many of the lines shows why the use of the plate was discontinued (significant details are lost - I think some members here have this deck).

The reason the old plates for regular cards were destroyed (the edict says they are to be taken to the tax office and "broken on the spot") is because cities could imitate another city's style, and export it to that city undercutting any local tax revenue. I'm not sure who was the main culprit here, but it must have been significant money. The 1701 edict was a way to create a distinct style or "portrait" in the court cards, as well as make sure the cards had the tax stamp which guaranteed that the cards were made where they appeared to be, and the tax was obtained. Since each city now had a centralized tax stamp with a distinct style of face card, it would be hard to fake another city's style - the King's tax-man wouldn't put the stamp on a "forged" portrait.

Tarot cards were exempt presumably because only certain cities made them, and many for export, and the market was not nearly so great. So the only requirement was to bring the printed sheets to the tax man and get the stamp. A problem did arise between Avignon and Marseille and Lyon, because Avignon wasn't French yet (until 1790) - it was part of the "Papal States". So Avignon made whatever cards they liked, and they did affect the market apparently.

There are old plates around, but not many.
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Re: Collection French Tarot dates 1500-1700

#13
Hello,
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:I think I might be somewhat responsible for Huck's emphasis on this point, which occasionally does merit being mentioned.
if so then maybe with additional informations, as I don't clearly what information it adds in this chronology.
For instance, some French Tarotists earlier in the last decade ... Tarots were explicitly exempted from the general destruction of playing card moulds, so that even the Avignon-not-French argument was unnecessary.
yep so this can't be a supportive argument of that fact being mentionned here.
So, the point about Avignon not being French until the Revolution is sometimes something useful to know. I also believe that not many people would know that fact, outside of people well-versed in French history. I don't think it is impertinent to mention it for historical clarity,... A problem did arise between Avignon and Marseille and Lyon, because Avignon wasn't French yet (until 1790) - it was part of the "Papal States". So Avignon made whatever cards they liked, and they did affect the market apparently.
That may be a bit more complicated in fact, and although the date 1790 is right for Avignon being a Papal State, for cards regulations and taxes it doesn't look so simple.
For instance Thierry Depaulis writes in "la carte à jouer une vieille industrie marseillaise" that the King of France pressed the Papal authorities so that in Avignon a tax similar to the one he imposed in France in 1745 would be applied in 1756 because cardmakers moved away from Marseille. We also learn in the same paper that a cardmaker moved to Avignon from Marseille in 1745 to avoid this tax so it's clear that although a Papal State the borders weren't "airtight".
To sum up in my opinion the fact that Avignon was contained within France and had its regulations influenced by its surroundings is at least as much relevant as the fact that it was a Papal state and was not a part of France.

Bertrand

Re: Collection French Tarot dates 1500-1700

#14
I think, that later states of Avignon cannot be drawn as big arguments for the situation of 1505.

Cardinal Giulio Rovere was already "rather mighty" in 1475 in his youth, when he became the cardinal of Avignon (and so the decidin ruler of Avinon). He continued to be mighty all the period till 1503 when he became pope Julius (then even more mighty).
In this time Avignon became a well running playing card production city ... it's difficult to argument, that Giulio Rovere didn't know about it. It should be realistic, that he and his mighty influence profited from this business.

When Alexander VI (Borgia) became pope (1492), Rovere had been the mightiest opponent. When Alexander was chosen, there was reason to fear for the life of Rovere. So he escaped to Avignon and France and the result was, that Charles VIII started his Naples campaign (1494). And Rovere was again behind the attack against Milan 1499.

When Rovere became Pope, the playing card business in Avignon started to become less well. Whole Avignon with its mighty neighbor France definitely got a crisis, when pope Julius thought it opportune to drive the French from Italy in 1510.

This are relevant and dominant facts of the development before 1505 (the macrocosm).
Further relevant facts are naturally the playing cards documents from Avignon (microcosm) ... likely we can learn learn a lot of the work of Chobaut.

Depaulis wrote in 2004 ...

IPCS 32/5 p. 199-206 ... 7 pages
IPCS 32/6 p. 244-249 ... 6 pages
... and less than 50% are really about Chobaut.

I don't know, how much pages of Chobaut are really relevant to us, but in any case much more than this possibly 5-6 pages of Depaulis.

Direct critique at Chobaut is given with ..
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I think, if we want to talk about the playing-card-producer microcosm of Avignon around 1505, we need this text. That's actually good work, well, with this error about Tarot. But if one know it, it's not that dangerous. Is there any way to get it? Or shall we fight with the snippets?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Collection French Tarot dates 1500-1700

#15
Hello again,
Huck wrote:I think, that later states of Avignon cannot be drawn as big arguments for the situation of 1505.
Although I don't second this observation, nonetheless I believe this is a huge step forward to read this from someone who used XXth century name statistics to draw conclusions about the XVIIth century.

Bertrand

Re: Collection French Tarot dates 1500-1700

#16
Bertrand wrote:Hello again,
Huck wrote:I think, that later states of Avignon cannot be drawn as big arguments for the situation of 1505.
Although I don't second this observation, nonetheless I believe this is a huge step forward to read this from someone who used XXth century name statistics to draw conclusions about the XVIIth century.

Bertrand
... :-) ... I for my part have done ancestor research and I know from practical experience, that the connections
between names - regions have a long duration over the centuries. Naturally this is not always true, especially if one region suffered extreme wars or strong immigration or emigration. So it's likely less true for Baden Würtemberg (heavy wars in the 30-years-war) or East-Prussia, which had a lot of immigration. Naturally it's also less true for citizens of cities than for population at the country. But in my case most father ancestors lived at a 5x5 km square, and went all to the same church on a mountain, which had a few books, in which are recorded their names and their important actions like birth and death, and marriages. The book was started 1670, so recorded persons partly were born 1600. My grandfather and his father emigrated 1908, so there is proven continuity for 300 years and real continuity for some more centuries, likely back to Charlemain and a pope, who both founded the church. And legend tells, that Widukind's horse (likely a white one) struck and a fountain appeared and so Widukind decided to become a Christian and so the church was founded there - year 799.

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... :-) ... and after he had done that, Charlemain thought, that he might become emperor now.

About 2-3 km distance, down of the mountain lived a farmer Huck Meyer or Huckmeyer - mid 16th century. and 200-300 meters aside there started a longer moor (actually a sort of standing river) and the moor couldn't be crossed (a street was installed in 1780; the living Huck of the time married a girl from the other side, which earlier never happened). Both two of my many ancestors in this region. I've counted ancestors in one of few locations in 20 of 40 houses around 1600. If I could go 100-150 years back, I would likely have ancestors in 35-40 of 40 houses

Huck is an expression for Moor (= moor). The region is famous for their Spoekenkiekers. I know of the story, that somebody saw big ships driving though the Moor. Some time later there was a long water channel with ships transporting goods ... .-)

************

You compare two different things. People living 1500 couldn't predict the future in the year 1800 (and future was open to develop according their activities), but people of 1800 could interpret their presence according the past of - for instance - 1500. And people in 1500 would have interpreted their presence according their own past. Surely everybody has some expectations about the future and for a good part they are correct.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Collection French Tarot dates 1500-1700

#17
Here is another one, for 1566.

Lambert Daneau, Deux traittez de S.C. Cyprian; jadis evesque de Carthage. L'un, contre les Jeux & Joueurs de cartes & de dez..., (1566), pp. 19-20.

"L'inuention du ieu des cartes & des dez est Payenne, & venue des idolatres.
On dit que ce fut Mercurius dieu des Payens, qui le premier trouua le ieu & inuention des cartes & des dez, esquelles il se fit peindre; tellement que les premieres cartes estoyent figurees comme sont celles du Tarot, & comme aux autres ieux de cartes on voit des cartes qui ont la figure & le nom de certains Rois, Roines & Valets. Tout ce qui est pure imitation de l'idolatrie. Car au lieu des noms d'idoles, qui estoyent (sur les) cartes Payennes, on a seulement mis le nom de ie ne say quels Rois, voire Chrestiens, comme de Charlemaigne."

The invention of the game/pack of cards is pagan, and comes from idolaters.
It is said that it was Mercury, god of the pagans, who first discovered gambling (lit. "the game"), and the creation of cards of dice, which he had painted, in such a way that the first cards were illustrated like those of Tarot, and like on other packs of cards one sees cards which have the image and name of certain Kings, Queens and Valets. All of this is sheer imitation of idolatry. For in the place of the names of idols, which were on the pagan cards, they simply put the name of whatever Kings, even Christians, like Charlemagne.
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