Re: Petit Oracle des Dames, c. 1800

11
Huck wrote:Well, it made sense, cause it was reduced to the more important parts. So there's a better overview.

And I think I found the (or at least one) author or authors ... see
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=824

The next step is to find out something about them. There's JACQUES GRASSET SAINT-SAUVEUR, book author and diplomat, F.L. Labrousse and J. Laroque, painter or engravers and possibly both the same man. The father of Jacques has a good biography, the not.

Penthasilea, are you French? Or Canadian?
No- but after 5+ years of French I can read it fairly well. The old French takes me some time though, the syntax used then was slightly different. :) How can I help? :D

Re: Petit Oracle des Dames, c. 1800

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Well, we have to find something out about ...

Jacques Grasset Sainte-Sauseur (1757 - 1810)

... and his helpers, F.L Labrousse, J. Laroque and possibly others.

Here is a big list of productions ... Some of the entries have downloadable material (you see it by the colored button)

http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=GRASSE ... ort_yr_asc

Somehow we must get a view on him. Interesting are changing addresses, times ... etc.

A good biography would be very helpful.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Petit Oracle des Dames, c. 1800

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Will check them out. The one reference- which would be fantastic- a book on his life- is only available from the library in France, which is unfortunate- unless you know someone who can traipse over there and pick it up. I have one that I will take with me this weekend to look at and let you know what I find.

:)

Re: Petit Oracle des Dames, c. 1800

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Penthasilia wrote:Will check them out. The one reference- which would be fantastic- a book on his life- is only available from the library in France, which is unfortunate- unless you know someone who can traipse over there and pick it up. I have one that I will take with me this weekend to look at and let you know what I find.

:)
Ah, that's fine ... :-)
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Petit Oracle des Dames, c. 1800

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I thought some documentation might be in order for why Etteilla had nothing to do with the Petit Oracle, as Eric says and contrary to the BNF. There are too many differences between its system and Etteilla's. I think it is worth listing some of them.

(1) The astrological assignments are often different. For 3, the Petit Oracle has Cancer, which corresponds to the crayfish in the picture; Etteilla has Gemini for this Moon card. Then in 4, the Petit Oracle has Aquarius for this water-pourer, while Etteilla has Cancer. The Petit Oracle has nothing for Prudence, whereas Etteilla gives it Pisces. The Petit Oracle gives Temperance and Night/Day the same astrological sign, Aquarius, while Etteilla's are Capricorn and Virgo. Justice for the Petit Oracle is Libra, but Sagitarius for Etteilla. (I notice that astrological assignment and position--11--agree with Waite; similarly, Strength is 8.) The Petit Oracle gives no astrological signs for any of the virtue cards besides Justice, while Etteilla gives them for all three. The Petit Oracle gives Saturn to the Hermit, who has nothing in Etteilla. The Petit Oracle gives no astrological sign to the Clubs (= Coins for Etteilla), whereas Etteilla gives the number cards in Coins the 7 planets plus three other signs.

(2) The interpretations are also frequently at odds with Etteilla's.

The assignment of animals to seasons in the Petit Oracle is different from Etteilla's (see http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.p...57&postcount=3). Etteilla has Spring as the Man, Autumn as the Eagle, and Winter as the Bull.

For the water-pourer, 4, Etteilla has "Loss"; the Petit Oracle says this card is a sign of happiness, fertility and regeneration, associated also with prosperity and success. The Petit Oracle says the 8 of Hearts (i.e. Cups) associated with it in the Reversed is Thought; in Etteilla, that is the 7 of Cups.

Etteilla associates the "Last Judgment" image with Judgment, not with the creation of humanity, which comes from de Mellet. In the reversed, the Petit Oracle has "generation" and a 10 of Clubs; there is nothing about that for Etteilla's 10 of Coins.

Etteilla has no expulsion from Paradise.

The Petit Oracle has "Ennui" for the 4 of Diamonds (Batons); in Etteilla, that is the 4 of Cups. The other 4s are likewise not right.

The Petit Oracle's Force Majeur has the left-hand small figure reaching up to the upper figure's genitals, and described in these terms in the booklet. This is not in Etteilla's image.

The Death card is at 13, the booklet says, because the ancients held that this was the least fortunate number. Etteilla said that the ancients held that 17 was the least fortunate number, and gave that number to Death accordingly.

Etteilla said in the Third Cahier that today the Hermit card means a Traitor or hypocrite; it shown with the keyword "Traitre" on the 1789 card, both upright and reversed; whereas for the Petit Etteilla there are two Hermits, one a Sage.

The analysis of "Augmentation", the reversed meaning of the Fortune card, says that the monkey waving a baton (also depicted in Etteilla's card) represents how “ignorance and baseness are favored by fortune, which forgets genius and virtue.” Etteilla doesn't say this.

The Chariot is for the Petit Oracle a symbol of Osiris and predicts protection, putting an end to dissension (even though the keyword is "dissension"), whereas for Etteilla it is the cause of dissension, with nothing positive.

The Petit Oracle's "choice between vice and virtue" has no equivalent in Etteilla.

The King of Batons (Diamonds) in Etteilla is not the Petit Oracle's Jupiter or a Protector, nor is his Queen a Juno or Protectress.

And so on.

It is true that Etteilla did modify some of his keywords between 1782 and 1789, and even between the 3rd Cahier of 1782 and the supplement to the 4th in 1785. (I plan to have a post on the latter soon, on the 3rd Cahier thread on Aeclectic.) But these modifications were minor and nothing like what we see in the Petit Oracle.

At the same time, the deck has many features in common with the Minchiate. This is perhaps obvious, but I think it's worth documenting specifically.

IIf you look at the writing on the cards, you will see that almost every card of the Minchiate is represented, one way or another, in one of the images of the Petit Oracle.

First, we have all the tarot trumps that the Minchiate took over, including both a "Hermit" and a "Traitor" but no Grand Duke, and instead of the Emperor and Empress we have Jupiter and Juno. (The Grand Duke might be the "Law" of "Law and Faith".) For the Tower, we have the Prison image, as in Etteilla. Then in addition, we have Prudence, Hope, Faith, and Charity, all of which are in the Minchiate. Minchiate's four elements are named on four of the cards that have other names. So are the 12 signs of the zodiac. And there is a Fame card (Renommée) as well, in both Minchiate and the Petit Oracle. I believe that covers all of the 41 cards of the Florentine Minchiate.

The obvious link is Poilly's Minchiate Francesa of 42 cards (the same as the Petit Oracle, with a somewhat similar 12 + 20 schema, zodiac plus others vs. single image plus double image, as Huck observed). Here are some of Huck's descriptors of the first 21 cards, along with his posts of cards in the Petit Oracle. I am not claiming an exact match, to be sure, just some resemblance. Some unfortunately are upside down.

02 L'amour (blind flying Eros with arrow and flowers)
Image


C. 1800, most tarot images of Cupid weren’t blindfolded.

03 L'Esperence (woman at small island with big anchor; Hope)
Image


05 La Fortune Woman standing on wheel in the sea; wings at her feet)
Image


This is in addition to the Etteilla image of Fortune, which on the card, too.

07 La Charité (woman with two children)
Image


09 Les Ages, la Vieillesse
Image


10 Age Viril (hero with sword and shield and dragon; "Golden Vlies" in a tree)
Image


Of course here the Lenormand deck is closer.
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/s ... id=1102156

11 Ages Adolescences (3 young women and a young sitting men reading from a book)

Well, there isn’t any exactly like that in the Petit Oracle, just one person reading a book or a group of young people talking.

12 Ages l'Enfance (three naked children playing "hiding")
Image


15 Element Terre (woman in landscape with fruits and with baton and crown)
Image


20 La Renommée (Angel with trumpet; Fame)
Image


These are just from the first 21 descriptions that Huck gave. They have nothing to do with Etteilla that I can see. I couldn't find Huck's descriptions of the other 9, before the zodiac.

Re: Petit Oracle des Dames, c. 1800

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These are just from the first 21 descriptions that Huck gave. They have nothing to do with Etteilla that I can see. I couldn't find Huck's descriptions of the other 9, before the zodiac.
I don't understand ... what do you mean? Poilly deck?
Here are 21 cards:
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/CadresFenetre ... hemindefer
Some others, which I found elsewhere, I've given. I don't have all.

The pictures of Petit Oracle des Dames are all there.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Petit Oracle des Dames, c. 1800

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I'm not sure, if you got the later developments of the theme.

The probable producer of the deck is ..
...viewtopic.php?f=11&t=824&p=11735&hilit=grasset#p11735
... Jacques Grasset de Saint-Sauveur, who was known for many other graphic productions. Grasset worked with engraver helpers, so it's not sure, if he was in all details the artist or if he just published it. Anyway, he announces the deck in 1799 and that's the first thing, which we know about the deck.
Huck
http://trionfi.com