Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Dummett, Decker, Depaulis, Kaplan; here we document the people, places, and events that shaped Tarot History. (Credentials not required; but references, citations, and substantiating evidence may be requested at the door.)

Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby mikeh on 24 Nov 2014, 09:47

Huck wrote,
Perhaps the earlier Florentine Lille already depended on the French Lille ... the Anjou, which manifested in Italy in the second half of 13th century had friends in Florence.

The link I gave earlier, http://www.thatsflorence.com/discoverin ... -florence/, says that the Florentine lily dates back to the 11th century. That seems plausible to me, as the Ghelph/Ghibilline struggles were before the Count of Anjou made his deal with the Pope to intervene on the side of the Guelphs in return for most of the spoils. After Manfred, defender of the Ghibellines (who got back in power in Florence and everywhere else), was defeated at Benevento in 1266, followed by Conradin in 1268, the French army occupied Northern Italy, Ghibillines were slaughtered, their property burned or confiscated. and it was all over (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred,_King_of_Sicily and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I_of_Naples for some of this).

I don't know anything about the rest of what you say.
mikeh
member
 
Location: Oregon USA
Favorite Deck: Conver/Noblet & Sola-Busca pips

Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Huck on 24 Nov 2014, 11:48

mikeh wrote:Huck wrote,
Perhaps the earlier Florentine Lille already depended on the French Lille ... the Anjou, which manifested in Italy in the second half of 13th century had friends in Florence.

The link I gave earlier, http://www.thatsflorence.com/discoverin ... -florence/, says that the Florentine lily dates back to the 11th century. That seems plausible to me, as the Ghelph/Ghibilline struggles were before the Count of Anjou made his deal with the Pope to intervene on the side of the Guelphs in return for most of the spoils. After Manfred, defender of the Ghibellines (who got back in power in Florence and everywhere else), was defeated at Benevento in 1266, followed by Conradin in 1268, the French army occupied Northern Italy, Ghibillines were slaughtered, their property burned or confiscated. and it was all over (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manfred,_King_of_Sicily and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I_of_Naples for some of this).

I don't know anything about the rest of what you say.


German wiki says ...
Der Name Ghibellinen / Waiblinger ist für das mittelalterliche Italien die Bezeichnung für die Parteigänger des Kaisers, benannt nach der heute württembergischen Stauferstadt Waiblingen und dem Kampfruf der Staufer. Die Existenz dieses Namens ist erstmals um 1215 zur Zeit des Stauferkaisers Friedrich II. bezeugt.


The name Ghibellines existed since 1215, according this. The name Welfen (= Guelphen) is older ... in 12th century Henry the lion (Welfen party) had conflicts with emperor Fredrick Barbarossa, a Staufer. This conflict might have proceeded to the later Italian conflict Ghibellines/Guelfs.

The link, that you gave, doesn't speak of "11th century" .... ?

11th century would be rather early for "heraldic devices", though the lille in France seems to be rather old as a symbol.

Image

German wiki: Florentiner Lilie
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florentiner_Lilie
with lots of examples

The Florentine Lille differs in color and by "Staubfäden" from the French Lille.

Image

Perhaps we should look for examples of the Medici device (six palle with Lille) around 1465. Either they are with "Staubfäden" or not.

Image

One palle is blue, the other 5 red. "Blue" associates France, one should assume. I don't see "Staubfäden".

http://www.theflorentine.net/articles/a ... tocId=7605

Image

... subtitled "The augmented coat of arms granted to Piero by Louis XI in 1465, replacing one of the six "balls" or palle of the family arms by a somewhat larger ball showing the arms of France." at ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piero_di_Cosimo_de'_Medici

It's a French Lille, not a Florentine Lille, no doubt, I would say.
User avatar
Huck
member
 

Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Huck on 30 Dec 2016, 10:30

I found a recently (2012) redesigned Minchiate Francesi ...
https://www.thegamecrafter.com/games/fr ... lly-tarot1

The author has made various redesigned decks.
Hello, and welcome to A Historical Retrospective! My name is Catherine Brown, and I love Tarot, Lenormand, and most other historical cartomancy! Please visit my blog CartomancyCat to get news on my latest efforts and all kinds of spreads and information.


https://historicalretrospective.wordpress.com/
https://cartomancycat.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Huck
member
 

Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Huck on 02 Mar 2017, 02:49

Notes to the question, how popular the figure "Momus" had been in the period 1640-70 (the time, when "Momus" appeared in the Minchiate Francesi).
I found an astonishing big number of German language texts, too much to note them all. In modern German language Momus is a rather unknown figure.


-----------------------

Faem et Momus over Neptuni Triumph en zege-wagen verciert vande Zeeuwsche Maegt, over de noyt-gehoorde victorie verkregen ... onder commando vanden ... zee-helt Michiel de Ruyter enz
J.P.S.
1666 - 8 Seiten
https://books.google.de/books?id=5IVJAA ... navlinks_s

**************

Momus poem (1642):
https://books.google.de/books?id=lA5OAA ... us&f=false

************

Lutherus Redivivus, Oder Das . . Theologische Schatz-kästlein, Von zwölff unterschiedlichen Fächlein: Darinnen allerhand nutzliche und denckwürdige Materien in zimlicher Ordnung eingetragen, Auß dem ... Jenischen Theil der Teutschen Schrifften D. Martini Lutheri S. ... Sampt einer Verzeichnuß, wo ein jegliches Stück, Buch oder Schrifft in den Wittebergischen Teutschen Tomis zu finden sey, und einem nothwendigen Register aller denckwürdigen Wörter und Sachen, Band 6
Martin Luther
Humm und Gerlin, 1665 - 691 Seiten
https://books.google.de/books?id=DSxUAA ... us&f=false

************

Legation Oder Abschickung der Esel in Parnassum
Rudolph von Dieskau
Ritzsch, 1642 - 68 Seiten
https://books.google.de/books?id=tZZKAA ... us&f=false

************

Acerra philologica das ist, 400 außerlesene Historien ... zusammen gebracht auß griechischen und lateinischen Scribenten etc
Doß, 1654
https://books.google.de/books?id=0CFLAA ... us&f=false

************

Der Lehr- und Weisheitbegierige Jüngling: Aus der alten sinnreichen Tafel des vortrefflichen Philosophi Cebetis, mit nützlichen Lehren unterrichtet : In welcher der Jugend Thorheit, Irrthum und Laster gezeiget ... ; In einer Comoedy von jungen Knaben praesentiret
Christoph Paul Spieß
Endter, 1659 - 127 Seiten
https://books.google.de/books?id=5kE7AA ... navlinks_s

Biography of author
http://www.astronomie-nuernberg.de/inde ... =spiess-mp

***********
User avatar
Huck
member
 

Previous

Return to The Researcher's Study


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 5 guests

cron