Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

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Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Kate on 09 Sep 2014, 23:15

Hi Huck,

Yes, I can see that it has been a couple of years since you last posted on this subject.

But to answer your question, I obtained pix, et al., for the 41/97 Minchiate deck (ca. 1658) attributed to François de Poilly the Elder (1623-1693) from the BnF with the exception, as noted above, of the Valet of Hearts. Insofar as the Romain Merlin description pertaining to this deck, I see only two [rather curious] anomalies: Aries (French, le bélier) is listed for the month of December and, conversely, Capricorn for March.

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b1 ... ate.langEN

poilly-1 Merlin2.jpg
(122.25 KiB) Not downloaded yet

poilly-2 Merlin2.jpg
poilly-2 Merlin2.jpg (67.37 KiB) Viewed 10276 times

Similarly, the BnF served as my resource in terms of the Poilly deck with a 22/78 format consistent with a tarot pack:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... ate.langEN

It should be noted that the unnumbered Momus trump has been incorrectly placed on the BnF website, where one should find No. 16, Element Air/Juno. Further, the bibliographic record provided by the BnF incorrectly gives this pack a 42/98 format. I, thus, presume that this record actually pertains to yet another pack—viz. the Minchiate, version 2 (ca. 1712-1741) attributed to François de Poilly the Younger (1666-1741) and having a 42/98 format.

Full bibliographic record
Title : [Jeu de Minchiate de fantaisie à enseignes françaises] : [jeu de cartes, estampe]
Author : Poilly, François de (1666-1741). Graveur présumé See only the results matching this author.
Publisher : [François de Poilly] (Paris)
Date of publication : 1712-1741
Type : Scènes historiques -- 1701-1788, image fixe, estampe
Language : French
Format : 1 jeu de 98 cartes : gravure en taille-douce coloriée à la main ; 9,4 x 6 cm
Format : image/jpeg
Copyright : domaine public
Identifier : ark:/12148/btv1b8409718z
Source : Bibliothèque nationale de France, département Estampes et photographie, RESERVE FOL-QB-201 (106)
Relation : Notice de recueil : http://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb410884129
Relation : Appartient à : [Recueil. Collection Michel Hennin. Estampes relatives à l'Histoire de France. Tome 106, Pièces 9209-9294, période : 1765-1769]
Relation : http://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb415080681
Description : Référence bibliographique : Hennin, 9242
Description : Référence bibliographique : Depaulis, Tarot 1984, 63

For this third deck, finding no other, single Internet source, I simply went by the reconstruction provided by you and Mike H. and which, of course, begins with Chaos at No.1.

Poilly Chaos ca 1712-1741.jpg
Poilly Chaos ca 1712-1741.jpg (21.43 KiB) Viewed 10276 times

Incidentally, in terms of my earlier inquiry in re the ordering of the astrological signs in this deck, I was subsequently able to ascertain from B/W pix found on the web that Libra and Scorpio appeared in the conventional order as Nos. 39 and 40, respectively. I have revised my summary of this deck accordingly in my previous post.

Stefano della Bella fables pictures should be all here:
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/c ... mages=true


Yes, thank you, Huck. I obtained this link from an earlier post of yours on the ATF forum and, in fact, used it to compile the diagram posted in my previous communiqué in re della Bella’s god-to-KQJ-court-card identifications.

Additionally, I thus obtained the below link for Marolles’ Temple des Muses (Paris, 1655), with designs by Diepenbeeck and plates by Bloemart (under whom the elder Poilly apprenticed in Rome). This website is also most useful for obtaining magnifications of the book’s illustrations.

http://ovid.lib.virginia.edu/TempleDesMuses.html

After the title page follows the illustration, “Chaos,” which figures so prominently in your research, albeit perhaps the title, “Star Wars,” would better serve. Note, for instance, Leo getting hosed by Aquarius, Sagittarius with his crossbow fixed on Gemini, and Taurus-Scorpio in a Mexican standoff—a pattern followed throughout the zodiac.

Marolles' Chaos.jpg
(631.1 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Additionally, for its use of iconography, some might find the book’s last illustration, “Sleep,” of interest.

Marolles' Sleep.jpg
(979.13 KiB) Not downloaded yet

In all the decks we've only the number exchanges. Actually it seems, that all 42 cards existed already around c. 1658 or c. 1660.

It was the elder Poilly, who developed the "Chaos Faible" with the production of pictures for Marolles' "Ovid" in 1654. Why should one assume, that a later Poilly added the Chaos figure?


Interesting . . . I somehow failed to grasp that, according to your theory, the first Minchiate deck (ca. 1658) attributed to François de Poilly the Elder had a 42/98 format, with “Chaos” as—what? Presumably, a “lost” No. 41 trump after Stars, Moon, Sun, World, and Fame? Further, may I thus presume that your theory redefines “Fame” in this context as “Temperance/Fama Sol”—viz. as found, for instance, in the Viéville deck (Paris; ca. 1650)?
Kate
member
 

Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Huck on 11 Sep 2014, 09:22

Kate wrote:Hi Huck,

Yes, I can see that it has been a couple of years since you last posted on this subject.

But to answer your question, I obtained pix, et al., for the 41/97 Minchiate deck (ca. 1658) attributed to François de Poilly the Elder (1623-1693) from the BnF with the exception, as noted above, of the Valet of Hearts. Insofar as the Romain Merlin description pertaining to this deck, I see only two [rather curious] anomalies: Aries (French, le bélier) is listed for the month of December and, conversely, Capricorn for March.


Yes, and Libra and Scorpio are exchanged in their numbers (and the row of course).

Details of Gallica give 1658-1693 as first possible date, you speak of c. 1658.

Titre : [Jeu de Minchiate de fantaisie à enseignes françaises] : [jeu de cartes, estampe]
Auteur : Poilly, François de (1623-1693). Graveur
Date d'édition : 1658-1693
Type : image fixe
Format : 1 jeu de 97 cartes : gravure en taille-douce coloriée à la main ; 9,4 x 6 cm
Format : image/jpeg
Droits : domaine public
Identifiant : ark:/12148/btv1b103365240
Source : Bibliothèque nationale de France, département Estampes et photographie, RESERVE BOITE FOL-KH-176
Relation : http://catalogue.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb43572841g
Description : Référence bibliographique : Depaulis, Tarot 1984, 62
Provenance : bnf.fr
Date de mise en ligne : 14/10/2013
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b1 ... ate.langEN


When I started the research, most available resources spoke of later dates, often early 18th century I remember, that I came to an earlier date of 1660 by own force, finally detecting a recent research, according which Depaulis also gave a similar date.

It should be noted that the unnumbered Momus trump has been incorrectly placed on the BnF website, where one should find No. 16, Element Air/Juno. Further, the bibliographic record provided by the BnF incorrectly gives this pack a 42/98 format. I, thus, presume that this record actually pertains to yet another pack—viz. the Minchiate, version 2 (ca. 1712-1741) attributed to François de Poilly the Younger (1666-1741) and having a 42/98 format.


Yes, you stumbled in the same confusion. But the pictures are all the same. If 41 trumps were ready in c. 1660, it seems plausible, that already 42 trumps were ready then, especially as Poilly was involved in the production of the Ovid pictures of Marolles (1654 or 1655, as you say; I'm not sure, what's correct). It's an interesting observation, that the Ovid edition had 58 pictures and also the 42 trumps version (42 trumps + 16 court cards).

...

Additionally, I thus obtained the below link for Marolles’ Temple des Muses (Paris, 1655), with designs by Diepenbeeck and plates by Bloemart (under whom the elder Poilly apprenticed in Rome). This website is also most useful for obtaining magnifications of the book’s illustrations.


My word "Marolles' Ovid edition" should be identical to your "Marolles Temple des Muses".
It seems plausibly to me, that Poilly transported the Ovid engravings from Rome to Paris and to Marolles, cause around this time he came back from Italy.
And then he was protected by Marolles, who became the great collector of engravings. I don't know, if you know, that Marolles wrote the first Tarot rules in 1637 for a Gonzaga princess and that he also wrote a ballet, in which playing cards fought against Tarot cards in 1657.
[I reported it, likely you find it with the local search engines with key word "Marolles"]

Personally I think (but I've no confirmation, as far I remember), that Marolles collected at least some of the playing cards, which became part of the BNF collection, between them likely the Vieville deck and the Noblet deck.


Interesting . . . I somehow failed to grasp that, according to your theory, the first Minchiate deck (ca. 1658) attributed to François de Poilly the Elder had a 42/98 format, with “Chaos” as—what? Presumably, a “lost” No. 41 trump after Stars, Moon, Sun, World, and Fame? Further, may I thus presume that your theory redefines “Fame” in this context as “Temperance/Fama Sol”—viz. as found, for instance, in the Viéville deck (Paris; ca. 1650)?


... :-) ... I've to look it up, it's longer time ago.

Fame is clearly "Renommee". 40 in the Merlin-edition. 24 in the 42-trumps-edition, described with "Judgement, a trumpeting angel in the sky over a land" and 20 in the 22-trumps-version:

Image

Virtues:
3 Hope
4 Force
(5 Fortune)
6 Justice
7 Caritas
8 Prudence

No word about Temperance and Fides. Around this time (17th century) there was a break with the traditional "7 virtues", so that's not totally special.

The Sicilian Tarocchi (assumed to be 17th century) used ..

4 Constancy (Athena type) ...

Image
modern

Image
18th century version

...
5 Temperance
6 Force
7 Justice

*************

Added:

Reading through the older text, I saw, that I wrote a little bit about the problem. But the whole enterprise was handicapped, as I wandered from rather incomplete data to some more information in various steps. It's difficult to keep such texts updated for "easy understanding".
Also I likely had a misinterpretation of Marolles Muses text (at least in my memory), which I took as totally made from Ovid's metamorphoses, which it isn't.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... les.langDE
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Huck
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Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Kate on 13 Sep 2014, 07:36

Huck wrote:
Kate wrote:
Insofar as the Romain Merlin description pertaining to this deck, I see only two [rather curious] anomalies: Aries (French, le bélier) is listed for the month of December and, conversely, Capricorn for March.


Yes, and Libra and Scorpio are exchanged in their numbers (and the row of course).


Just to clarify, I meant, here, anomalies on the part of Merlin only insofar as his description of the 41 card Poilly deck. This deck did, in fact, reverse the order of Libra and Scorpio. It remains an open question for me whether this reversal of Libra and Scorpio should be deemed a “mistake” or whether Francois de Poilly intended for these astrological signs to be reversed and, if so, the intended significance of such.

Huck wrote:
Details of Gallica give 1658-1693 as first possible date, you speak of c. 1658.


Consider this a mark of the persuasiveness of your argument in terms of dating this deck. :-bd Additionally, You say Depaulis gave a similar date?

Huck wrote:
The pictures are all the same. If 41 trumps were ready in c. 1660, it seems plausible, that already 42 trumps were ready then, especially as Poilly was involved in the production of the Ovid pictures of Marolles (1654 or 1655, as you say; I'm not sure, what's correct).


Yes, I’d agree that it is certainly plausible. For me, however, the critical issue is how an alleged “missing” Trump No. 41/Chaos would or would not fit into the intended narrative of the deck. Further, it might be argued that this deck without “Chaos” would better match the model of a Minchiate deck, albeit as a fantasy pack, this may be of less imporance than the issue of intended meaning.

Huck wrote:
I don't know, if you know, that Marolles wrote the first Tarot rules in 1637 for a Gonzaga princess and that he also wrote a ballet, in which playing cards fought against Tarot cards in 1657.
[I reported it, likely you find it with the local search engines with key word "Marolles"]


Yes, I read this with much interest in your previous posts. I presume that you were unable to locate a written program for Marolles' court ballet of 1657?

Huck wrote:
I likely had a misinterpretation of Marolles Muses text (at least in my memory), which I took as totally made from Ovid's metamorphoses, which it isn't.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... les.langDE


A high degree of syncretism is to be expected, I think...But thanks for the link. This is a wonderful resource...

This may or may not be related, but intriguing nonetheless, if I may refer you to Marolles’ last illustration, “The Temple of Sleep” within his Temple des Muses . . .

The temple features two doorways. On the left, beneath an elephant and a statue of Diana (Luna), is the Gate of Ivory, which leads to false dreams or visions. On the right is the Gate of Horn, which leads to the true dreams of poets or visionaries. Above this second doorway can be seen a bull and another statue. The statue recalls contemporary depictions of the virtue, Charity. In his description, however, Marolles identifies this statue as Nuit—the friend of repose, with wings and star-studded gown. At her breasts are two babes. The babe resting in her right arm is sleeping. The babe resting in her left arm, nursing, is described by Marolles as dead. Interestingly, within this second doorway, the artist has depicted the Wheel of Fortune.

Marolles gives as his reference, directly below the illustration, Homer's Odyssey, Book 19. Quoting Wikipedia, for convenience:
Stranger, dreams verily are baffling and unclear of meaning, and in no wise do they find fulfilment in all things for men. For two are the gates of shadowy dreams, and one is fashioned of horn and one of ivory. Those dreams that pass through the gate of sawn ivory deceive men, bringing words that find no fulfilment. But those that come forth through the gate of polished horn bring true issues to pass, when any mortal sees them ( lines 560-569.


Further, Marolles in his description of this illustration makes reference to Virgil. Again, quoting Wikipedia:

Virgil borrowed the image of the two gates in lines 893-898 of Book 6 of his Aeneid, describing that of horn as the passageway for true shadows and that of ivory as that through which the Manes in the underworld send false dreams up to the living. Through the latter gate Virgil makes his hero Aeneas, accompanied by the Cumaean Sibyl, return from his visit to the underworld, where he has met, among others, his dead father Anchises:
Two gates the silent house of Sleep adorn;
Of polish'd ivory this, that of transparent horn:
True visions thro' transparent horn arise;
Thro' polish'd ivory pass deluding lies.
Of various things discoursing as he pass'd,
Anchises hither bends his steps at last.
Then, thro' the gate of iv'ry, he dismiss'd
His valiant offspring and divining guest.

Why Virgil has Aeneas return through the ivory gate (whence pass deluding lies) and not through that of horn is uncertain. One theory is that it refers to the time of night at which he returned. Jorge Luis Borges accepted the view that, for Virgil, what we call reality is not in fact such; that Virgil may have considered the Platonic world of the archetypes to be the real world.


I'm sure you're familiar with both these texts. However, this next passage relating to Fame was new to me, although it may be old hat to you:

The 15th century Latin poet Basinio of Parma, employed at the court of Sigismondo Malatesta in Rimini, wrote a panegyric epic poem for his prince (Hesperis) modelled largely on the Aeneid and the Homeric epics, in which Sigismondo, as epic hero, undertakes a journey to the underworld in order to meet his deceased father Pandolfo Malatesta. Before that he passes the temple of Fama which has a bipartite gate, one half made of horn, one of ivory. On the ivory half not only Sigismondo's descent but also the ones by Hercules, Theseus, Ulysses and Aeneas are depicted.
Having seen that, they turn towards the astounding temple of Fame, a temple enormous and imposing in size and shape, whose door on its left side is white from ivory steps with shining horn on the other half. Disturbing nightmares are conveyed by false rumour on the vain gates of ivory, while true dreams of horn are sent by trustworthy rumours. The gate of horn shows the Spaniards defeated on the Tyrrhenian shore [i.e. Sigismondo's victory over Alfonso's V. troops at Piombino 1448]. On the ivory steps Sigismondo turns toward the sea, and is swimming after his ship is destroyed [on his way to the island where he is to undertake his trip to the underworld]. There Theseus and also Hercules made their way: there brave and victorious Ulysses went to the gloomy homes of the Cimmerians; there faithful Aeneas took to the Stygian lake Avernus."

Basinio's Latin text is as follows:
Haec ubi visa, petunt famae mirabile templum,
templum augustum immane horrens, cui limen eburnis
canebat gradibus laeva de parte ; nitebant
parte alia cornu solido loca. Falsa elephanti
fama refert vanis insomnia turbida portis,
somnia vera ferunt non vanae cornua famae.
Cornea dejectos Tyrrheno in litore Iberos
porta docet templi. Gradibus Sismundus eburnis
tendit ad Oceanum, et fracta natat alta carina.
Hac iter Aegides, nec non Tyrinthius heros
Taenarias legere vias : hac durus Ulysses
Cimmerium obscuras victor concessit ad Arces ;
hac pius Aeneas Stygio se immisit Averno. (Hesperis XIII 205-217)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gates_of_horn_and_ivory

For a primary source of Hesperis XIII:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b5 ... age.langEN

Regards,
Kate
Kate
member
 

Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Huck on 13 Sep 2014, 13:08

Kate wrote:Just to clarify, I meant, here, anomalies on the part of Merlin only insofar as his description of the 41 card Poilly deck. This deck did, in fact, reverse the order of Libra and Scorpio. It remains an open question for me whether this reversal of Libra and Scorpio should be deemed a “mistake” or whether Francois de Poilly intended for these astrological signs to be reversed and, if so, the intended significance of such.


I would guess, that this falls in the category "stupid printing errors" and "nothing mysterious".

...

Consider this a mark of the persuasiveness of your argument in terms of dating this deck. :-bd Additionally, You say Depaulis gave a similar date?


Yes, it should be somewhere in the thread.

In 1984 Depaulis had this ... (the younger Francois Poilly)

Image

A playing card seller had 1660 ...
http://www.millon-associes.com/doc/CP-C ... 051111.pdf
... connected to an exhibition 5 November 2011

Later I learned, that Depaulis was connected to this exhibition. I commented with a later addition ...
Later COMMENT: I didn't realize immediately, that Depaulis participated in this publication of 2011. As with this it seems clear, that c. 1660 is likely a correct interpretation, I wouldn't have made so intensive arguments for it.


I started with the topic in January 2012, so Depaulis was earlier. Depaulis didn't go to much details,.

Huck wrote:
The pictures are all the same. If 41 trumps were ready in c. 1660, it seems plausible, that already 42 trumps were ready then, especially as Poilly was involved in the production of the Ovid pictures of Marolles (1654 or 1655, as you say; I'm not sure, what's correct).


Yes, I’d agree that it is certainly plausible. For me, however, the critical issue is how an alleged “missing” Trump No. 41/Chaos would or would not fit into the intended narrative of the deck. Further, it might be argued that this deck without “Chaos” would better match the model of a Minchiate deck, albeit as a fantasy pack, this may be of less imporance than the issue of intended meaning.


There are two arguments:

1. Louis XIV was styled as sun-king very early, at least already in 1655. A finishing ordered zodiac at 31-42 (highest trumps) makes sense in a French Minchiate, which starts with "Chaos". Expressing the hope, that the king will clear any chaos.

2. There was a wedding of the future grand-duke of Florence with a French princess in 1661. An ideal moment to make a Minchiate in Paris, likely that, what was closest to the original version. 41 cards.

Perhaps the event of the wedding triggered the first production. Then the court had an idea on it and found, that the trump hierarchy wasn't perfect. Improvements were suggested.

And I found this picture, which used court card motifs of the Minchiate Francesi ...

Image

... dated 1666 or earlier, possibly 1665.

Huck wrote:
I don't know, if you know, that Marolles wrote the first Tarot rules in 1637 for a Gonzaga princess and that he also wrote a ballet, in which playing cards fought against Tarot cards in 1657.
[I reported it, likely you find it with the local search engines with key word "Marolles"]


Yes, I read this with much interest in your previous posts. I presume that you were unable to locate a written program for Marolles' court ballet of 1657?

Did you find ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=751&p=10705&hilit=marolles+ballet#p10705



Huck wrote:
I likely had a misinterpretation of Marolles Muses text (at least in my memory), which I took as totally made from Ovid's metamorphoses, which it isn't.
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... les.langDE


A high degree of syncretism is to be expected, I think...But thanks for the link. This is a wonderful resource...

This may or may not be related, but intriguing nonetheless, if I may refer you to Marolles’ last illustration, “The Temple of Sleep” within his Temple des Muses . . .

The temple features two doorways. On the left, beneath an elephant and a statue of Diana (Luna), is the Gate of Ivory, which leads to false dreams or visions. On the right is the Gate of Horn, which leads to the true dreams of poets or visionaries. Above this second doorway can be seen a bull and another statue. The statue recalls contemporary depictions of the virtue, Charity. In his description, however, Marolles identifies this statue as Nuit—the friend of repose, with wings and star-studded gown. At her breasts are two babes. The babe resting in her right arm is sleeping. The babe resting in her left arm, nursing, is described by Marolles as dead. Interestingly, within this second doorway, the artist has depicted the Wheel of Fortune.


Well, Diane, goddess of the Moon, fits with Sleep and Night. Beside the Wheel a Hanged Man (upright hanging). These are both not friendly doors, one should think. The elephant fits with the idea of ivory, the bull with the horn.

Night had with Erebos 20 children. With parents these are 22 figures, I note. Most are negative, one of them was Momus, as I remember. This should be from Hesiod ...

(Hesiod, Theogony 211, (Greek epic C8th or C7th B.C.) :
"And Nyx bare hateful Moros (Doom of Death) and black Ker (Fate of Death) and Thanatos (Death), and she bare Hypnos (Sleep) and the tribe of Oneiroi (Dreams). And again the goddess murky Nyx, though she lay with none, bare Momos (Criticism) and painful Oizys (Misery), and the Hesperides (Evenings) . . . Also she bare the Moirai (Fates) and the ruthless avenging Keres (Deaths) . . . Also deadly Nyx bare Nemesis to afflict mortal men, and after her, Apate (Deceit) and Philotes (Sex) and hateful Geras (Old Age) and hard-hearted Eris (Strife)."

http://creativityandhealing-kalina.blog ... three.html

This counts a little bit different, I think. Well, likely there were slightly different lists.

.... this next passage relating to Fame was new to me, although it may be old hat to you:

The 15th century Latin poet Basinio of Parma, employed at the court of Sigismondo Malatesta in Rimini, wrote a panegyric epic poem for his prince (Hesperis) modelled largely on the Aeneid and the Homeric epics, in which Sigismondo, as epic hero, undertakes a journey to the underworld in order to meet his deceased father Pandolfo Malatesta. Before that he passes the temple of Fama which has a bipartite gate, one half made of horn, one of ivory. On the ivory half not only Sigismondo's descent but also the ones by Hercules, Theseus, Ulysses and Aeneas are depicted.
Having seen that, they turn towards the astounding temple of Fame, a temple enormous and imposing in size and shape, whose door on its left side is white from ivory steps with shining horn on the other half. Disturbing nightmares are conveyed by false rumour on the vain gates of ivory, while true dreams of horn are sent by trustworthy rumours. The gate of horn shows the Spaniards defeated on the Tyrrhenian shore [i.e. Sigismondo's victory over Alfonso's V. troops at Piombino 1448]. On the ivory steps Sigismondo turns toward the sea, and is swimming after his ship is destroyed [on his way to the island where he is to undertake his trip to the underworld]. There Theseus and also Hercules made their way: there brave and victorious Ulysses went to the gloomy homes of the Cimmerians; there faithful Aeneas took to the Stygian lake Avernus."



Well, that's interesting for the Malatesta context. Malatesta had the elephant as his family impresa. The title "Hesperis" ... the Hesperides were also children of Night.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gates_of_horn_and_ivory
The phrase [Gates of horn and ivory] originated in the Greek language, in which the word for "horn" is similar to that for "fulfil" and the word for "ivory" is similar to that for "deceive". On the basis of that play on words, true dreams are spoken of as coming through the gates of horn, false dreams as coming through those of ivory.
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Huck
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Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Kate on 18 Sep 2014, 10:09

Huck wrote:
There are two arguments:

1. Louis XIV was styled as sun-king very early, at least already in 1655. A finishing ordered zodiac at 31-42 (highest trumps) makes sense in a French Minchiate, which starts with "Chaos". Expressing the hope, that the king will clear any chaos.

2. There was a wedding of the future grand-duke of Florence with a French princess in 1661. An ideal moment to make a Minchiate in Paris, likely that, what was closest to the original version. 41 cards.

Perhaps the event of the wedding triggered the first production. Then the court had an idea on it and found, that the trump hierarchy wasn't perfect. Improvements were suggested.

And I found this picture, which used court card motifs of the Minchiate Francesi ...

Image

... dated 1666 or earlier, possibly 1665.


"Le Commerce de la France avec les quatre parties du Monde" . . . The text shown appended to the table at foreground specifies the date, in Roman numerals, 1666. The work was clearly inspired by contemporary depictions of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba with France or its capital, presumably, representing the "New Jerusalem."

The Poilly deck's King of Hearts or King of Europe is shown seated upon a throne, which features a sphinx ... conceivably in reference to the virtue, Prudence (Wisdom)—an attribute of Solomon.

Poilly King of Hearts.jpg
(257.37 KiB) Not downloaded yet


Interestingly, I've read that during the reign of Henri IV, French playing decks identified the King of Hearts with Solomon in the following model . . .

French Suits.4 Directions.4 Heroes.2.jpg
(48.95 KiB) Not downloaded yet


Although, according to Pere Daniel, this model was replaced during the reign of Louis XIV with the following, older model:

French Suits.4 Directions.Heroes.jpg
(37.04 KiB) Not downloaded yet


Huck wrote:
I don't know, if you know, that Marolles . . . wrote a ballet, in which playing cards fought against Tarot cards in 1657.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=751&p=10705&hilit=marolles+ballet#p10705


Thank you, Huck, for the link to the Marolles work. I'm in the process of reading it now.

Huck wrote:
Kate wrote:
If I may refer you to Marolles’ last illustration, “The Temple of Sleep” within his Temple des Muses . . .
The temple features two doorways. On the left, beneath an elephant and a statue of Diana (Luna), is the Gate of Ivory, which leads to false dreams or visions. On the right is the Gate of Horn, which leads to the true dreams of poets or visionaries. . . Within this second doorway, the artist has depicted the Wheel of Fortune.

. . . Beside the Wheel a Hanged Man (upright hanging). These are both not friendly doors, one should think . . . .


. . . A confrontation with truth is often unpleasant. But what's the saying? "The truth shall set you free"? Interestingly, I never noticed that the man is hanging—or, to be more specific, is he being dangled like a puppet on a string by the other man sitting atop the Wheel?

Huck wrote:
Kate wrote (quoting Wikipedia):
The 15th century Latin poet Basinio of Parma, employed at the court of Sigismondo Malatesta in Rimini, wrote a panegyric epic poem for his prince (Hesperis) modelled largely on the Aeneid and the Homeric epics, in which Sigismondo, as epic hero, undertakes a journey to the underworld in order to meet his deceased father Pandolfo Malatesta. Before that he passes the temple of Fama which has a bipartite gate, one half made of horn, one of ivory. On the ivory half not only Sigismondo's descent but also the ones by Hercules, Theseus, Ulysses and Aeneas are depicted.
Having seen that, they turn towards the astounding temple of Fame, a temple enormous and imposing in size and shape, whose door on its left side is white from ivory steps with shining horn on the other half. Disturbing nightmares are conveyed by false rumour on the vain gates of ivory, while true dreams of horn are sent by trustworthy rumours. The gate of horn shows the Spaniards defeated on the Tyrrhenian shore [i.e. Sigismondo's victory over Alfonso's V. troops at Piombino 1448]. On the ivory steps Sigismondo turns toward the sea, and is swimming after his ship is destroyed [on his way to the island where he is to undertake his trip to the underworld]. There Theseus and also Hercules made their way: there brave and victorious Ulysses went to the gloomy homes of the Cimmerians; there faithful Aeneas took to the Stygian lake Avernus."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gates_of_horn_and_ivory
Well, that's interesting for the Malatesta context. Malatesta had the elephant as his family impresa. The title "Hesperis" ... the Hesperides were also children of Night.

. . . or by some accounts, daughters of Hesperus, the Evening Star (Venus). Unfortunately, the Basinio work is written in Latin—not a language I know.

In my previous encounters with the elephant motif, this animal has been linked with Virtue . . . Fortitude, Temperance, Prudence (Wisdom), or Chastity. Several sources I referenced, indicated that Malatesta linked the elephant with Fortitude, and in a medal Malatesta commissioned from Matteo de' Pasti, for instance, the female personification of Fortitude is pictured with broken column sitting upon two elephants, whilst the elephant at right tramples upon a serpent.

The Commons Getty Collection.jpg
(252.47 KiB) Not downloaded yet


Of course, the virtue, Fortitude, had an association with death--viz. in terms of Fortitude in the face of death or Fortitude onto mutual death of the protagonist and his adversary. This last is exemplified by a coin struck by Julius Caesar and apparently known by Renaissance humanists, in which, again, an elephant (Caesar) is depicted trampling upon his formidable adversaries in the guise of a serpent even at the risk of his own death.

Caesar_Denarius-49BC.jpg
(904.02 KiB) Not downloaded yet


On the other hand, in Jan van Eyck's Virgin and Child with Canon van der Paele, Fortitude as personified by St. George is associated with the defeat of death. This is made known by a written inscription found on the work.

La_Madone_au_Chanoine_Van_der_Paele.jpg
(281.24 KiB) Not downloaded yet


Perhaps, this is the link? For the Temple of Fame's Gate of Ivory is also the path purportedly taken by Malatesta and other great heroes into the Underworld.

That aside, I was hoping to ascertain whether Basinio drew his inspiration in terms of his characterization of the "Temple of Fame" from others or, conversely, if others drew from Basinio. I've read that Malatesta had many handwritten copies made of this work to give as gifts in his image-making efforts.
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Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Huck on 19 Sep 2014, 18:27

For the case of Malatesta (1448) the elephant is family heraldry, though it's not clear to me, since when. The elephant was connected to Fame, and was connected to trumpets (and trumpets reported the Fame) and the long nose of the elephant was interpreted as trumpet.
Chaucer connected Fame to Aiolos, God of the winds, for similar reasons.

The elephant was designed also as a chess figure, meaning in the Asian versions usually the earlier bishop figure (or their equivalents in the relevant chess version). Interestingly it became the Rook in European chess (the strongest figure on the board, before the Queen was promoted) for a longer time, at least occasionally. Unluckily it's not totally clear, since when, and if this crosses the time, when the Malatesta family already used the elephant as heraldry.

When the Trionfi poem pictures started, around 1440, then the chariot of Fame was drawn by elephants usually.

***************

In one myth version Hesperos (evening star) is brother of Atlas and father of Hesperis, who got from Atlas the Hesperides.

Atlas, Prometheus and Epimetheus are the well known brothers and children of Iapetos, one of the 12 Titan-children of Uranos. But there was a fourth brother, named Menoitios.
Prometheus ("think before action") and Epimetheus ("think after action") are naturally a pair in their interpretation. But Atlas and Menoitios were also a pair before.
After Zeus and brothers had weakened Kronos, Atlas became the leader of the opposition. Zeus forced him to carry the heaven, and his brother Menoitios was struck and ended in the Tartaros. Prometheus and Epimetheus had kept aside in the fight, so they weren't punished in this phase.

Herakles in context of the visit to Atlas (10th work) and setting Prometheus free again (12th work) meets also a Menoites (= Menoitios appears in the 10th and 12th work; in the 10th work he is at the side of Geryon, who had three bodies, in the 12 work he is the guardian of the oxes of Hades; Menoites fights with Herakles, but Menoites isn't killed, cause Persephone begs for him).
http://www.theoi.com/Khthonios/Menoites.html

"Hesperos = evening star" and "brother of Atlas" might be another hidden form of the much hidden Menoitios. A connection between evening star and Nyx is quite logical ...

Image
"Nyx (Night) & Hesperus (Evening Star), Athenian red-figure krater C4th B.C., State Hermitage Museum, St Petersburg"
http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AsterEosphoros.html


***********

Iapetos had these 4 sons mostly from "Asia", which would mean, that the whole idea was located in the "East" (of Greece). Iapetos was identified with Japhed, one of the three sons of Noah, whose descendents are said to have spread towards North (Minor Asia) and West, so in direction to the Greeks.
All sons of Iapetos have in their mythological actions close relations to human activities, in contrast to the actions of the Kronos-children, which established in mythology the Olymp and the connected Greek polytheism.

The garden of the Hesperides with their apple-tree and the dragon around it is just a Greek mirror picture of the garden Eden in Genesis. Atlas seems to be a modified Adam. Naturally the Kronos children did win in the Greek interpretation of the world against the sons of Iapetos; and also in reality, when Alexander conquered the East.
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Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Kate on 23 Sep 2014, 03:39

. . . I’m at sea. :( Please correct me, where I err . . .

The convention (with Classical antecedents) developed in the subject period, whereby, the chariot of Fame was pulled by two or more elephants. Moreover, a letter written in 1441 by Matteo di Pasti to Piero de’ Medici memorializes the first known use of elephants in association with a Petrarchan Triumph of Fame.

Matteo di Pasti received his first commissions from Malatesta in 1446 and moved to Rimini in 1449. Basinio, likewise, became employed by Malatesta and moved to Rimini in 1449. Ergo, one might be tempted to speculate that these two men knew each other in Rimini, if not earlier, and that Basinio was acquainted with the link between the Triumph of Fame and elephants, when he purportedly began writing his “Hesperis” in Rimini dedicated to Malatesta.

Further, in this same period, the chariot of Death, which preceded the Triumph of Fame and which was paired with Fame by Petrarch’s model (viz. as “Death defeated by Fame”), was normally pulled by oxen or bulls.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=858&hilit=elephant#p12388

Petrarch's triumphs
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Petrarch%27s_triumphs

H1: This conceivably represents a curious parallel with the “Temple of Fame,” so-called by Basinio which, again, has two doors: at right, one of horn [≈ bull, ox] linked with trustworthy rumors or visions; at left, one of ivory (≈ elephant) linked with false rumors or visions.

Again, to quote Basinio (as cited in Wikipedia), with underlined text representing my emphasis:
They turn towards the astounding temple of Fame . . . The gate of horn shows the Spaniards defeated on the Tyrrhenian shore [i.e. Sigismondo's victory over Alfonso's V. troops at Piombino 1448]. On the ivory steps Sigismondo turns toward the sea, and is swimming after his ship is destroyed [on his way to the island where he is to undertake his trip to the underworld]. There Theseus and also Hercules made their way: there brave and victorious Ulysses went to the gloomy homes of the Cimmerians; there faithful Aeneas took to the Stygian lake Avernus.


H2: Conversely, Basinio (whom Malatesta purportedly employed as his court astrologer) conceivably linked the Gate of Horn with another horned animal, the goat, for Capricorn, which as a Saturn-ruled sign is linked with lead (Italian, “piombo”) possibly as a pun for “Piombino” and which also resides opposite Cancer (≈ sea) on the astrological wheel.

H3: Alternatively, Basinio might have linked the Gate of Horn with the horned Aries, which resides opposite Libra (≈ Justice). Interestingly, contemporary depictions of Fama at times resemble that of Justice, with sword in one hand, and balances in the other.

Unfortunately, this must remain a matter of speculation, lacking a translation of Basinio’s work from the Latin.

*****
~o) On the other hand, returning to Marolles’ “Temple of Sleep,” the Gate of Ivory (left) is unquestionably linked with both the elephant and Diana (Luna), whereas, the Gate of Horn (right) is linked with the Bull and Nuit. In turn, Nuit, who to some degree resembles contemporary depictions of Charity, has an association with both repose and death by way of the two babes held in her right and left arms, respectively. Marolles further describes this last child at left as “blackened.”

As previously mentioned, Marolles has pictured within the Gate of Horn the Wheel of Fortune and the Hanged Man “upright”—a motif echoed in contemporaneous French Tarot—or possibly, as an interpretation on this theme, a man dangled from the neck like a puppet on a string by the figure, which surmounts the wheel.

The details depicted within Marolles’ Gate of Ivory are, likewise, difficult to discern. However, figures of interest pictured within this portal would seem to include an emaciated rider (Death?) mounted on a horse and guiding an ass, as well as a figure with feathered headdress. The city at background and turbaned figure might also have reference to the Orient/east.

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8 ... /f606.zoom

Also worth reading (no reference to Fame or Petrarch)—“The Elephant in Medieval Legend and Art” (George C. Druce, 1916), provided by Steve M.

http://bestiary.ca/etexts/druce1919-2/d ... %20art.pdf

Reference, for instance, the fatal enmity between the elephant (= cold) and serpent (= hot).

Thank you and regards,
Kate
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Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Huck on 23 Sep 2014, 09:51

Piombino

http://archivinform.weebly.com/lassedio ... -1448.html
L'assedio di Piombino del 1448
a cura di Luciano Giannoni

Nella primavera del 1448 Alfonso d’Aragona pose l’assedio a Piombino – piccolissimo stato ma di grande importanza strategica per la sua collocazione geografica – sicuro di una conquista facile e rapida. Tuttavia la resistenza dei piombinesi, guidati da Rinaldo Orsini, si rivelò tenace; dopo vari mesi di inutili assalti, il 10 settembre dello stesso anno le truppe aragonesi si ritirarono. Ancora una volta il piccolo Davide aveva battuto il gigante Golia e l’episodio ebbe all’epoca una notevolissima rilevanza, tanto da essere ricordato dagli storici e rappresentato pittoricamente, se è vero, come crediamo, che proprio all’assedio di Piombino si ispiri il cassone ligneo conservato al Ringling Museum di Sarasota.Contestualmente al volume, è stato realizzato un diorama che descrive la fase finale dell’assedio.


Rinaldo Orsini is given as the leader (in the city of Piombino, I think).

http://stemmieimprese.it/2012/09/17/la- ... bino-1448/
Secondo il Capponi e l’Ammirato il re Alfonso aveva con se 7000 cavalli e 4000 fanti più un seguito di genti che portava il totale dell’esercito a 15000 uomini e sotto il comando di valenti capitani tra i quali Pedro di Cardona, Inigo Guevara e Simonetto da Catel di Piero.

Dall’altra parte l’esercito fiorentino contava 5000 cavalli, 2000 fanti e circa 1000 guastatori o saccomanni, comandati dai condottieri Federico da Montefeltro e Sigismondo Malatesta, che da poco aveva abbandonato il servizio del re Alfonso, assieme ai commissari fiorentini Bernadetto de’ Medici e Neri Capponi, lo stesso dei Commentari citati.


Piombino was an independent state, but if it would have fallen in the hands of Alfonso of Argon, it would have become dangerous to Florence and Northern Toscana. So Florence and Toscana had a great interest to defend it.

Alfonso still had his interest to become ruler in Milan. With Piombino in his hands he would have been able to organize a Northern Italian military presence to follow his aim.

http://condottieridiventura.it/index.ph ... di-brescia
July 1447: Malatesta has a contract with Alfonso of Aragon against Florence. Montefeltro stands on the other side. The contract was taken for one year.
(August 1447: In this month died Filippo Maria Visconti. This should have changed the political situation)
November 1447: Malatesta gets still 2000 ducati from Alfonso. He fights Montefeltro in his home region.
December 1447: Malatesta meets with Giannozzo Manetti, a Florentine delegate. Malatesta takes position against Alfonso. He is still in fight with Montefeltro.
March 1448: Montefeltro and Malatesta make a peace contract. Malatesta moves to Toscana, fighting Naples for Florence at different locations.
September 1448: The deciding battle at Piombino.
http://condottieridiventura.it/~condott ... /2723-1440
In the report Malatesta is given as the first commander, so likely he was the leading general. Montefeltro isn't noted on the list. The loss at the Aragonese side is given with 1000 dead and 1000 wounded. It seems to have been enough, that Alfono stopped his engagement. I saw it otherwise described as a heavy loss for Alfonso.

October 1448: Malatesta is invited to fight for Venice against Milan, together with Gregorio d'Anghiari (one of the condottieri, who cooperated with Giusto Giusti). In that same month Sforza moved from the side of Milan to the side of Venice (18 October), after Sforza had won a great battle for Milan at Caravaggio (15 September, relative contemporary to the battle of Piombino).

Well, it's imaginable, that Piombino was a great success for Malatesta and that it moved him to present himself with more engagement in humanistic aims, which caused the run of humanists to Rimini.
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Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Huck on 24 Sep 2014, 13:52

Basinio of Parma

As far I understood it, the Basinio work at Gallica ...

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b5 ... /f257.item
Basinius Parmensis, Hesperis ["Basinii Parmensis Hesperidos" libri XIII]

... is only book No. 13 of 13 books, which belong to the work. I've read, that the whole work had about 18.000 verses.

It seems, that the author finished the work short before his early death in 1457 in the young age of 32 years. It seems, that he was buried in expensive style in the Tempio Malatestiano.

We had the poet a short time ago in the Anghiari battle debate:

Huck wrote:So we have two dates for the death of Ginevra, once a 3 September and another a 12 October. And the Trionfi deck was given at 16 September and it makes a difference, if 12 October or 3 Septemer is the real one.

The source, which gives the date 3 September goes back to Basinio Basini or Basinio of Parma [1425 - 1457), a poet with some time in Mantova, Ferrara, Parma and Rimini.

Image
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basinio_Basini
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basinio_Basini
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basinio_Basini
http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/bas ... Biografico)/

The biographical material (which contains the 3 September) seems to be from Francesco Gaetano Battaglini (1753-1810)
http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/fra ... Biografico)/

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=950&p=15422&hilit=basinio#p15422

There appeared a contradiction of the date of death for Malatesta's first wife Ginevra d'Este. Generally October 1440 is given, but a source, which seems to go back to Basinio, had the 3rd of September.

The first Trionfi card note (1440), according which Malatesta got as a present Trionfi cards decorated with Malatesta heraldry, relates to the date 16 September. If the wife died at 3 September, it would have arrived short after her death, if she died in October, she died short after this event.

***********

Pictures of this work:
http://bodley30.bodley.ox.ac.uk:8180/lu ... =Shelfmark

French biography:
http://books.google.de/books?id=XbIFAAA ... es&f=false

************

Image
http://www.foliamagazine.it/unaccoglienza-trionfale/

Trionfi of Malatesta in Florence in one of the Hesperides editions.

*************

A complete Latin text of the Hesperides (as it seems) and some of the other works:
Basini Parmensis poetae opera praestantiora: Hesperis. Astronomicon. Meleagris. Argonauticon
Basinio Basini, Ireneo Affò, Angelo Battaglini (conte.), Francesco Gaetano Battaglini (conte.)
ex typographia Albertiniana, 1794
http://books.google.de/books?id=AuzlAAA ... navlinks_s

The text opens with a short description of all 13 books (by Basinio, I assume; usually about a page for each book, all in Latin language).
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Re: Minchiate Francesi / Poilly decks

Postby Huck on 25 Sep 2014, 17:17

Giusto de' Conti

Kate wrote:Matteo di Pasti received his first commissions from Malatesta in 1446 and moved to Rimini in 1449. Basinio, likewise, became employed by Malatesta and moved to Rimini in 1449. Ergo, one might be tempted to speculate that these two men knew each other in Rimini, if not earlier, and that Basinio was acquainted with the link between the Triumph of Fame and elephants, when he purportedly began writing his “Hesperis” in Rimini dedicated to Malatesta.


Matteo Pasti and Basinio might have been acquainted already 1446 in Ferrara. Ferrara had a developing university with about 30 students in the 1430s and about 300 in the 1440s. As a city with a university it's somehow logical, that pupils studied in Ferrara and moved later to other places. Ferrara hadn't so much occupations for all of them. Though Matteo Pasti wasn't a student, I would assume. It's said, that he worked then together with Gregorio d'Alemagna, a miniaturist.
Ferrara should have had about 30.000 inhabitants. Likely not every visitor knew each other visitor.

Both were rather young then, Matteo Pasti about 26, Basinio 21 years. Matteo Pasti became a co-architect to Alberti or the Tempio Malatestiano, together with Duccio. Reading through ...

The Malatesta temple; sixtyfour illustrations, and text (1915)
by Luigi Orsini
https://archive.org/details/malatestatemples00orsiiala

... I get a description of the 7 chapels of the Tempio, and that 4 persons close to Sigismondo lie buried there:

1. Basinio of Parma (our current topic), (1425 - 1457)
... wrote the 'Hesperides' (1449-1457)

2. Giusto de' Conti (c. 1390 - 1449 at 19 November)
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giusto_de'_Conti
... who wrote "La bella mano" in 1440 (or 1441 ?)
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_bella_mano
text here:
https://archive.org/details/labellamanodigiu00contuoft
150 poems of different lengths and different style, likely all with the theme "Love", somehow in the manner of Petrarca's Canzonieri.

3. Roberto Valturi (1405 - 1475)
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Valturio
.. form a Rimini family, author of the military treatise "De Re militari" (1472, written 1446 e il 1455); 'parte del "Consiglio privato" di Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta' since 1446

4. Gemistos Plethon
... famous man, and Sigismondo spend a lot of energy to get his bones from Greece to Rimini.

The 3 remaining chapels were filled with later persons from Rimini, not of interest in the biographical aspect of Sigismondo.

The persons 1., 3. and 4.and their context to Sigismondo is relative clear, but person No. 2 is a riddle. He was the first to get the honor to be buried at this place (November 1449). A poet, somehow in papal service during the council 1438-40 in Ferrara and Florence, then - just the time, which is critical for the Trionfi card development - becoming famous or poems in the style of Petrarca (possibly in context to the Alberti contest for poetry ?), and some years later approaching Malatesta, who just celebrates his love-affair with Isotta (around 1446). And Sigismondo increases his humanistic interests about this time.

It might have been a man, who had a great influence on Malatesta.
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