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Tarotica : 1584

Posted: 02 Jan 2012, 11:12
by BOUGEAREL Alain
Did someone write about this entry before Andrea's article?
I do not know of anyone before ...

Tarotica : 1584 :-B

It seems that it could be the first document, we now know, containing information about the tarot game along with information about the mystical of tarot.
Yet the text is written in very difficult Latin hard to translate. Although the literal translation is difficult to understand what the author says about the game due to a convoluted writing with at time popular Latin impression. Extraordinary as the author calls the world of Tarot: TAROTICA

Author : Guillaume D’Oncieu

Title: Numeralium locorum decas: in omni ferè scientiarum genere mysticis referta propositionibus.

Dedication: Ad Serenissimum Carolum Emanuelem Sabaudiae Ducem

Printer: apud Carolym Pesnot

Place of printing: Lugduni

Year: 1584



Title of Andrea Vitalali ' s



Tarotica – 1584

La Quaterna dei Tarocchi fra Mistica e Gioco



i.e.



Tarotica -1584

The Tarot set of four numbers between Mysticism and Game


This the link (at the moment in Italian version):
http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=293&lng=ITA

Re: Tarotica : 1584

Posted: 02 Jan 2012, 17:41
by Ross G. R. Caldwell
Very nice find from Andrea Vitali.

Jess Karlin, if he really existed, would have liked to see that someone coined the same word he used on the internet, over 400 years ago.

http://tarotica.blogspot.com/

Image


The book by Guillaume d'Oncieu is at Google Books -
http://books.google.fr/books?id=aFr_Mx6 ... ca&f=false

Andrea provides an Italian translation of the passages.

Re: Tarotica : 1584

Posted: 02 Jan 2012, 19:39
by marco
Thank you Alain, I did not know of this new finding.
Even if Vitali's site provides an Italian translation, it's not easy to make sense of it.

Apparently ,there is a great emphasis on numbers 3, 4 and 7.

For instance, tarot is described as being made of 3 parts:
1) the 56 pips+court cards,
2) the 21 trumps
3) the Fool.

56 is described as “a double septenary square” (2*7*4) and 21 as a triple septenary (3*7).

D’Oncieu also notes that the total number of cards can be divided in three equal sets of 26.

Re: Tarotica : 1584

Posted: 02 Jan 2012, 20:16
by SteveM
He seems to begin by comparing the structure of the cards to that of the 'square shape in games of fate men call dice' (?) (Does Tessera here mean dice?) :

Quadrata figura qua sors ludit in humanis Tessera dicta.
Quadrata quoque in cartis, inde cartae dictae:

That called dice by men who play lots is square shaped. Cards are also square, hence they are called cards. (or, and so cardmakers call them?)

As far as I can tell however dice are not mentioned again . . .

SteveM

Re: Tarotica : 1584

Posted: 03 Jan 2012, 08:40
by marco
SteveM wrote:He seems to begin by comparing the structure of the cards to that of the 'square shape in games of fate men call dice' (?) (Does Tessera here mean dice?) :

Quadrata figura qua sors ludit in humanis Tessera dicta.
Quadrata quoque in cartis, inde cartae dictae:

That called dice by men who play lots is square shaped. Cards are also square, hence they are called cards. (or, and so cardmakers call them?)
Hello Steve,
in my opinion, your first interpretation of the second line is the correct one:
"Cards are also square, hence they are called cards".

D’Oncieu seems to think that "carta" etymologically derives from "quadrus", possibly relating the word to the French "carrè".

Re: Tarotica : 1584

Posted: 03 Jan 2012, 08:47
by SteveM
marco wrote: D’Oncieu seems to think that "carta" etymologically derives from "quadrus", possibly relating the word to the French "carrè".
I vaguely recall there was some other reference to cards as 'quarters' . . . ? (Possibly it was a conversation as to whether a reference to a game of 'quarters' meant cards or some other game?)

Re: Tarotica : 1584

Posted: 03 Jan 2012, 08:50
by Huck
SteveM wrote:
marco wrote: D’Oncieu seems to think that "carta" etymologically derives from "quadrus", possibly relating the word to the French "carrè".
I vaguely recall there was some other reference to cards as 'quarters' . . . ?
Perhaps this:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=761

Re: Tarotica : 1584

Posted: 03 Jan 2012, 17:35
by GirolamoZorli
I have offered Andrea a translation from the game point of you. He has already published it at the end of his article online. My translation is visible also on my site TRETRE at the address
http://www.tretre.it/menu/accademia-del ... cieu-1584/

Few keys to understand the text are : quaternum means quarter of the deck, that is to say suit. Universum is the whole thing, it is to say the deck. Etcetera. It comes out a description of the Tarot deck in use in Piedmont-Savoy of the time : a 14x4+21+1. Septenarium is also a factor : 14x4=56, that is to say the double of a septenarium and a quaternum (7x4x2=56). And so on.

Re: Tarotica : 1584

Posted: 03 Jan 2012, 17:37
by GirolamoZorli
point of view, of course, not point of you.... :D

Re: Tarotica : 1584

Posted: 03 Jan 2012, 18:07
by SteveM
GirolamoZorli wrote: Few keys to understand the text are : quaternum means quarter of the deck, that is to say suit. Universum is the whole thing, it is to say the deck. Etcetera. It comes out a description of the Tarot deck in use in Piedmont-Savoy of the time : a 13x4+21+1. Septenarium is also a factor : 13x4=56, that is to say the double of a septenarium and a quaternum (7x4x2=56). And so on.
Thanks for the link GZ ! Though neither my Latin nor Italian is up to making full sense of this - your interpretation and notes have helped clarify a great deal.

re: sleight correction should be 14 not 13!? -14x4=56

2x7x4