Re: Fame riddle

#171
I am not sure where you are going with all these reams of geneological notes on noble families with the name or variation thereof of Vieville: we are discussing a cardmaker of whom we know nothing excepting his name was recorded as a cardmaker on several occassions over a limited period in Paris - I find it harder to imagine a noble background for him than, for example, influence of an Italian model as reflected in terms such as MA[T], BAGA[T] & SOL FAMA, and images consistent with some North Italian ones, such as Bologna --

If you want to look for a tree, better through the Parish records of ordinary people, than the coats of arms of the nobility?

geanet is quite usefull, even on free subscription for example on can access this:

http://en.geneanet.org/archives/registres/view/6718/945

The handwriting is beyond me with my poor French however! (From the notes alone I know that it is 03/20/1648
VIEVILLE Jacques, Juré et me cartier -- Paris (Paris, France) -- Notes : Requête pour les cartiers de Paris)
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Fame riddle

#172
Huck wrote:
At the 26. December 1651 the regions Nogent Artoud-sur-Marne and St. Martin d'Ablois were contracted to build the new duchy Vieuville to honor Charles I de la Vieuville.
... according ...
Grosses vollständiges Universal Lexicon aller Wissenschaften und Künste, welche bisshero durch menschlichen Verstand und Witz erfunden und verbessert worden, Band 48 (1746)
https://books.google.de/books?id=0_xfAA ... le&f=false

The both regions are located between Paris and Reims.
Definitely this was a reason for celebration in the Vieuville family.
From https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php? ... opic&sr=50
"Family and issue
La Vieuville married Marie Bouhier de Beaumarchais in 1611. Marie was the daughter of Vincent Bouhier, seigneur de Beaumarchais and held the titles of dame de Nogent-l'Anaud and baronne de Saint-Martin de Blois. She had a sister, Lucrèce, who was married to Nicolas de L'Hôpital."
So we see, that the new duchy "Vieuville" in 1651 was made from territory, that his wife has brought to the family.

********************

As a roughly timeline I have for the moment:
1623: A group of persons, which seems to be near to the mother of Louis XIII, arranged, that the current man for the finances, Henri of Schomburg, lost his position. Instead Vieuville became a sort of ministre for finances.
1624: A group guided by cardinal Richelieu influenced the king, that Vieuville is taken to Ambroise)
1625: After a year Vieuville escapes to the Spanish Netherlands.
1650 - 1653: Vieuville back at the scene of success ... in France.

Vieuville's life is embedded in the complicated relationship between King-mother Maria de Medici and her son Louis XIII, which is a long story, with Maria finally emigrating also to the Spanish Netherlands (around 1630), also to England and finally to Cologne, where she died 1642.

From Maria we may assume, that she loved Tarocchi, as she loved Italian influence on the French court. From Louis
XIII we know, that he hated Italian influence on the French court, and we may suspect, that he also didn't like Tarocchi.
From this we possibly can conclude, that Vieuville, too, had a good relation to the Tarocchi game, cause he had some positive relation to the King-mother.

I don't know much about Vieuville's time between 1625-1650 (for the moment), but I got a note from an autobiography of this lady "Anne de Gonzague de Clèves" ...

Image

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_de_G ... l%C3%A8ves
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Gonzaga

.. that she played a sort of intrigue to make Vieuville ministre des finances again (which indeed happened in 1650).

This Lady was the younger sister of the one Gonzaga daughter, who in 1637 ordered the Tarot rules from Marolles, and from this condition one may assume, that she probably also had a good relation to the game.
So again one may conclude, that also Vieuville had a good relation to Tarot.

Denkwürdigkeiten der Pfalzgräfin Anna von Gonzaga. Aus dem Französ. (von Christoph Schmidt, genannt Phiseldek.)
Gebauer, 1787
https://books.google.de/books?id=NypXAA ... le&f=false

**********

List of ministres des finances
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des ... s_Finances
1588-1594 : François d'O
1594-1597 : Conseil de 9 membres (Pomponne de Bellièvre, Henri Ier de Montmorency, Albert de Gondi, Gaspard de Schomberg, Jacques de la Grange-le-Roy, Pierre Forget de Fresnes, Philippe Hurault de Cheverny et Nicolas de Harlay de Sancy)
1597-1611 : Maximilien de Béthune, futur duc de Sully
janvier 1611-1616 : Conseil de 3 directeurs (Guillaume de L'Aubespine, Pierre Jeannin et Jacques-Auguste de Thou)
1616-1617 : Claude Barbin
1617-1619 : Pierre Jeannin
1619-1623 : Henri de Schomberg, comte de Nanteuil
1623-1624 : Charles, marquis de La Vieuville
1624-1626 : Jean Bochard ; Michel de Marillac
1626-1632 : Antoine Coëffier de Ruzé, marquis d'Effiat
1632-1640 : Claude de Bullion ; Claude Bouthillier
1640-1643 : Claude Bouthillier
1643-1647 : Nicolas de Bailleul ; Claude de Mesmes, comte d'Avaux ; Michel Particelli d'Émery
1647-1648 : Claude de Mesmes, comte d'Avaux ; Michel Particelli d'Émery
1648-1650 : Claude de Mesmes, comte d'Avaux
1648-1649 : Charles de La Porte, seigneur de La Meilleraye
1649-1650 : Michel Particelli d'Émery ; Claude de Mesmes
1650-1651 : René de Longueil, marquis de Maisons
1651-1653 : Charles de La Vieuville, marquis puis duc de La Vieuville
1653-1659 : Nicolas Fouquet ; Abel Servien


I've to study this a little bit. Francois d'O (where I started the list) was (likely) a relative to Charles de la Vieuville, from which Vieuville learned about finances. The ancestor Robert de la Vieuviel was married to a Mademoiselle d'O.
Catherine d'O de Vérigny (née en 1555, morte avant le 6 juin 1611), veuve de Michel de Poisieu, (était mort le 13/4/1580).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#173
SteveM wrote:I am not sure where you are going with all these reams of geneological notes on noble families with the name or variation thereof of Vieville: we are discussing a cardmaker of whom we know nothing excepting his name was recorded as a cardmaker on several occassions over a limited period in Paris - I find it harder to imagine a noble background for him than, for example, influence of an Italian model as reflected in terms such as MA[T], BAGA[T] & SOL FAMA, and images consistent with some North Italian ones, such as Bologna --

If you want to look for a tree, better through the Parish records of ordinary people, than the coats of arms of the nobility?

geanet is quite usefull, even on free subscription for example on can access this:

http://en.geneanet.org/archives/registres/view/6718/945

The handwriting is beyond me with my poor French however! (From the notes alone I know that it is 03/20/1648
VIEVILLE Jacques, Juré et me cartier -- Paris (Paris, France) -- Notes : Requête pour les cartiers de Paris)
Thanks for this resource.

I think, that there is a relation between the cardmaker Vieville and the noble family Viefville - Vieuville - Vieville. Naturally I don't know which.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#174
SteveM wrote:
geanet is quite usefull, even on free subscription for example on can access this:

http://en.geneanet.org/archives/registres/view/6718/945

The handwriting is beyond me with my poor French however! (From the notes alone I know that it is 03/20/1648
VIEVILLE Jacques, Juré et me cartier -- Paris (Paris, France) -- Notes : Requête pour les cartiers de Paris)
Another page, VIEVILLE Jacques, Maître et juré Cartier et cartonnier, Paris (Paris, France) 03/07/1644

http://en.geneanet.org/archives/registr ... /30287/327

Of course we know about these already, but it is nice to be able to see and search for the original documents online, (even if I can't read them!)

A search on Vieville Jacques, 1550 - 1700 gives :

http://en.geneanet.org/fonds/individus/ ... year=&go=1
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Fame riddle

#176
SteveM wrote:
http://en.geneanet.org/archives/registres/view/6718/945

The handwriting is beyond me with my poor French however! (From the notes alone I know that it is 03/20/1648
VIEVILLE Jacques, Juré et me cartier -- Paris (Paris, France) -- Notes : Requête pour les cartiers de Paris)
All the card makers together on the 1648 Requete pour les cartiers de Paris that I can find are :

DELAHUPERYE, Pierre Compagnon cartier &
DELAISTRE, François Maître cartier &
DELARUE, Jean Compagnon cartier &
DELARUE, Louis Maître cartier &
DELARUE, Michel Maître cartier &
DEU, Pierre Maître cartier &
FRANçOIS, Robert Compagnon cartier &
FRENET, Renaud Compagnon cartier &
GABOURET, Nicolas Compagnon cartier &
GUILLERET, Nicolas Compagnon cartier &
HELOUIN, Pierre Compagnon cartier &
HEULIN, Pierre Maître cartier &
HUREL, Etienne Compagnon cartier &
LEBLOND, Claude Compagnon cartier &
LEBLOND, Georges Compagnon cartier &
LEBLOND, Jean Compagnon cartier &
MATOUZEAU, Pierre Maître cartier &
MéRIEUX, Antoine Maître cartier &
PAULMIER, Jean Compagnon cartier &
PELET, Pierre Maître cartier &
PELLé, Raoul Maître cartier &
POULLET, Pierre Compagnon cartier &
RABBé, Guillaume Compagnon cartier &
REVEL, Benoist Juré et me cartier &
ROBERT, Jean Maître cartier &
ROBERT, Nicolas Maître cartier &
ROBLIN, Jacques Compagnon cartier &
SAINT PIERRE, Raoul Maître cartier &
TUTELLE, Pierre Maître cartier &
VARIN, Jacques Compagnon cartier &
VAUCHELIN, Claude Maître cartier &
VIEVILLE, Jacques Juré et me cartier &
VIRE, Roger Vire, Compagnon cartier &



Jacques was a Jurist ( Juré ) too? So what sort of qualifications did one require to be a Jurist in 17th century France - perhaps that tells us something at least of his level of education?
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Fame riddle

#177
I have not much time now. The relation between Vieuville nobility and cardmaker Vieville might have been a humble one. Perhaps Vieville simply admired the Vieuville and their return to success ... and that's all. Perhaps the Vieville deck is a 2nd or 3rd generation of a much more beautiful deck. This are possibilities to consider.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#178
SteveM wrote:
Jacques was a Jurist ( Juré ) too? So what sort of qualifications did one require to be a Jurist in 17th century France - perhaps that tells us something at least of his level of education?
I think it just means he is an elected Jurist of his trade? That is, one chosen to enforce the by-laws of the cardmakers, and perhaps to represent them? And perhaps also one to whom an apprentice or compagnon must admit work examples to be judged qualified to become Masters (of their trade) ?

Les candidatures à la maîtrise sont posées devant le corps des maîtres et jurés du métier, qui favorisent les fils de maîtres et se montrent très rigoureux, semble-t-il, en certains métiers, pour l'admission de ceux qui ne le sont pas.

The candidatures for the master's degree are laid before the body of the teachers and jurors of the profession, who favor the sons of masters and seem to be very rigorous, it seems, in certain trades, for the admission of those who are not.

So cardmaking was considered a Juried trade, and Vieville was both a Master and a Juror for the cardmakers (of Paris) --
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Fame riddle

#179
There were rules with the taxes ...

Franco has a report to the conditions in Florence, written 1990.
Beginning with 1630, an auction was held every five years in order to assign the concession of
collecting the taxes on playing cards; this procedure went to the 1780s, when the administration
kept the whole subject under its own control. Thus, after 1630, taxes on playing cards were no more
directly collected by the administration. Correspondingly, in the official books of the revenue
information is only found about concession holders and no longer about card makers. However,
concession holders commonly were the card makers themselves; one or two of them often won the
auction for holding the concession in next five-year period, other card makers of same or different
family warranted to the revenue.
The amount that the contractors had to give to the administration was generally paid by monthly
instalments. Therefore we have in the official books long lists of records for these single payments.
If things went smoothly, the only additional information that we usually obtain is the name of the
person actually bringing the money each month. This was often the concession holder himself, but
sometimes he distributed the task among those card makers who were indebted to him. It is by these
records, for instance, that we can assess that Antonio MARCHIONNI had become the most active
among the various Florentine card makers during the second half of the 17th century.
.... there's more: http://www.naibi.net/A/48-FLOMAK2-Z.pdf

I don't know, how they ruled it in Paris.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#180
Here is a more complete list of Paris cartiers, as recorded in various Paris registries and avaiable at geneanet (names are repeated) :

1572-01-11 RANCY, Nicolas Comp. cartier
1585-05-24 GUYMIER, Jehan Cartier
1602-03-30 MAROLLE, Pierre Me. Cartier

1602-09-23
HUILLART, Martin Maître cartier
MAROLLE, Pierre Maître cartier
MORIEU, Daniel Maître cartier
TAUPIN, Laurent Maître cartier

1610-06-09 GUIMYER, Jean maître cartier
1626-03-24 LE MORIEUX, Daniel Maître cartier
1631-11-15 PICART, Nicolas Me cartier
1632-12-01 Pierre MAROLLE, seul cartier ordinaire du Roi
1642-02-27 MERRIEU, Jean Maître cartier

1644-03-07
DAMIEN, Robert Maistre cartier cartonnier
ROBERT, Nicolas Maître et juré Cartier et cartonnier
VIEVILLE, Jacques Maître et juré Cartier et cartonnier

1644-08-03
DELOTZ, Genetz
DELOTZ, Gilbert
(famille de papetiers et de cartiers à Thiers)

03/20/1648
Requête pour les cartiers de Paris
DELAHUPERYE, Pierre Compagnon cartier
DELAISTRE, François Maître cartier
DELARUE, Jean Compagnon cartier
DELARUE, Louis Maître cartier
DELARUE, Michel Maître cartier
DEU, Pierre Maître cartier
FRANçOIS, Robert Compagnon cartier
FRENET, Renaud Compagnon cartier
GABOURET, Nicolas Compagnon cartier
GUILLERET, Nicolas Compagnon cartier
HELOUIN, Pierre Compagnon cartier
HEULIN, Pierre Maître cartier
HUREL, Etienne Compagnon cartier
LEBLOND, Claude Compagnon cartier
LEBLOND, Georges Compagnon cartier
LEBLOND, Jean Compagnon cartier
MATOUZEAU, Pierre Maître cartier
MéRIEUX, Antoine Maître cartier
PAULMIER, Jean Compagnon cartier
PELET, Pierre Maître cartier
PELLé, Raoul Maître cartier
POULLET, Pierre Compagnon cartier
RABBé, Guillaume Compagnon cartier
REVEL, Benoist Juré et me cartier
ROBERT, Jean Maître cartier
ROBERT, Nicolas Maître cartier
ROBLIN, Jacques Compagnon cartier
SAINT PIERRE, Raoul Maître cartier
TUTELLE, Pierre Maître cartier
VARIN, Jacques Compagnon cartier
VAUCHELIN, Claude Maître cartier
VIEVILLE, Jacques Juré et me cartier
VIRE, Roger Vire, Compagnon cartier

1652-08-12 REGNIER, Gabriel Cartier
1655-06-15 GAULTIER, Pierre Maître cartier
1666-00-00 OUINET, Jean Cartier
1666-05-31 VAUCELIN, Claude Cartier ordinaire du roi

1673-02-20
ALOCHE, Guillaume Mtre cartier
MATOUZEAU, Pierre Mtre cartier

1676-09-22 DESBANS, Antoine Maître cartier
1680-07-27 GIRARD, Gaspard Me cartier
1681-02-12 ROBERT, Jean Maître marchand cartier
1683-04-26 GRENOUVILLE, Noël Maître cartier papetier
1684-02-05 CAMPROGER (de), Pierre Louis Maître cartier

1689-01-27
PELLE, Pierre Me cartier papetier
DESCHALLES, Hugues Md papetier (et cartier)
LA BOISSE, Louis De Md papetier (et cartier)

1691-00-00 VERNADET, Jean Maître cartier

1691-05-17 & 1691-05-28
DUPONT, Laurent Maître cartier

1692-06-28 LASNE, Pierre Maître cartier
1692-10-07 JUSTE, Jean-baptiste Marchand cartier
1693-10-29 BOULLEUX, Louis Maître cartier
1694-01-10 OUYNET, Jean Cartier
1699-12-24 ROBERT, Nicolas maître cartier papetier x , 1699-12-24
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

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