Re: Fame riddle

#41
mikeh wrote:As to the relative dates of the Vievil, Noblet, and Tarot de Paris, Flornoy says of the Noblet,
The back of the cards exactly conforms to the design employed by Viéville. The same motif occurs on the back of the Anonyme Parisien tarot (cat. n° 33).
He then gives pictures: http://www.tarot-history.com/Jean-Noble ... age-2.html

Does that at all suggest that they had the same publisher around the same time?
Perhaps different publishers used the same back? Perhaps there was a Parisian order, that playing cards should have the same backs to avoid cheating? Perhaps the common use of these backs influenced the dating of the Parisian Tarot?
Well, I date the design of the Tarot de Paris, otherwise dated c. 1600, on 1559 ... I can't exclude, that the extant deck is a later remake of an earlier composition and in reality made c. 1600 or even 1650.
My dating is referring (and it is based on it) to heraldic elements at the coin suit.

There are two Gonzaga girls left in Nevers 1637. Both get a great show in the Parisian life of the early 1640's. One of the girls seems to have ordered the printing of Tarocchi rules in 1637, the writer's hand seems to have been that of Marolles.
Marolles in his autobiography 1657 gives information to the activity of 1637 and suggests a great ballet, in which also Tarot cards appear as living figures.
Marolles was a great engraving collector. His collection became the base of that collection, which was described end of 19th century and contained beside other playing cards also the Vievil, the Noblet and the Tarot de Paris. Maybe without Marolles we wouldn't know neither of the Noblet, or the Vievil or the Tarot de Paris.

Marolles lived close in the 1640s close to the Gonzaga girls, at least close to the elder. But this disappeared in 1645 to become Queen of Poland. The other girl had a great salon in Paris and married a son of the "Winterkönig", whose activities to get the Emperor throne in 1619 gave reason to start the 30-years-war in Germany from 1618-1648).

Marie Louisa Gonzaga (ordered Tarocchi rules, later Polish Queen)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Louise_Gonzaga

Anna Gonzaga, younger sister, had a salon in Paris
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Gonzaga
According to the Italian historian Signor G. B. Intra, Anne “held one of the most brilliant salons during the early years of the reign of Louis XIV.”[1]
Anna Gonzaga's first pseudo-husband (scandal 1439/41)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_II,_Duke_of_Guise

Anna Gonzaga's second husband
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward,_Co ... of_Simmern

Winterkönig, father-in-law to Anna Gonzaga
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_ ... r_Palatine

Marolles
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_de_Marolles
His relation to the Gonzagas isn't noted in this short biography, but it's indeed so, that likely the Gonzagas played a deciding role, which made his immense collection possible.

*******************

If one assumes, that all three well known decks Tarot de Paris, Noblet and Vievil went through Marolles' hands, then it is plausible, that at least Vievil and the Tarot de Paris came to him through the Gonzaga connection. Vievil appeared in 1643 in Paris, that's the "high time" for the Gonzaga girls and their salons. In this year Louis XIII died and also Richelieu ... the reality of French life adapted itself to the new situation full of new chances and developments. Vievil's appearance just at this time might indicate, that he was called to Paris by the Gonzagas, who possibly wished to do something with Tarot cards (game promotion).
Mazarin, the follower of Richelieu, had organized gambling sessions earlier, he was in playing card aspects very active. A favor for Tarot cards was not recognizable for him (though he was to some part Italian), and indeed "Tarot went into decline" in his time as regent. Relative soon after 1643 started the production of educative playing card decks for Louis XIV (5 years old in 1643).

All 3 have the same back ... perhaps this were used backs, and the backs were restored at a situation, when all 3 decks already were in the collection. Under such a condition the equal backs would say us nothing, just "later forgery".

My answer is similar to that of Bertrand, as I understand it.

I don't know, if anything is internal known about the provenance of the 3 decks. If nothing is known, it seems plausible, that Marolles collected these decks.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#42
Huck wrote:Relative soon after 1443 started the production of educative playing card decks for Louis XIV (5 years old in 1443).
Please be more careful with dates. These messages are public and searchable.

I know, I make the same mistake; best to double check before posting.
Image

Re: Fame riddle

#43
Doesn't Dodal have the same back also, dated 1701-1713?

And if so, not in Paris, so what can we learn?
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Fame riddle

#44
Hello,
robert wrote:Doesn't Dodal have the same back also, dated 1701-1713?
not it doesn't, it has got a kind of hermine back.
I haven't heard of this pattern outside Paris in the17th century.

Bertrand

Re: Fame riddle

#45
Bertrand wrote:Hello,
robert wrote:Doesn't Dodal have the same back also, dated 1701-1713?
not it doesn't, it has got a kind of hermine back.
I haven't heard of this pattern outside Paris in the17th century.

Bertrand
Thanks Bertrand!!
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Fame riddle

#46
The Backs of the Cards:

Bertrand wrote, about the Maltese cross design on the backs of the cards
I haven't heard of this pattern outside Paris in the 17th century.
Are you saying that this pattern didn't exist except in 17th century Paris? Kaplan (II p. 294)says, of Group 6 of the Sforza Castle cards ,
6. Five cards have the identification AL SOLIDATO in a panel at the bottom of the black design, which is an encircled Maltese cross in a checkered pattern.
He shows some examples pp. 294-295. Kaplan adds that
AL SOLDATO was likely a Bolognese cardmaker of the eighteenth century.
So apparently Maltese cross designs on the backs had some popularity. That still supports your main point: the pattern was used on more than one occasion, even if we don't know when it started. And as Huck points out, even if we did know when the pattern was introduced, all it would show is the earliest date for that particular manufacture, which could have been a copy of something earlier. The likelihood of that increases when we consider that the words "FAMA SOL" are printed backwards, as are many of the designs relative to their usual orientation. I surmise that the cutter simply traced the designs onto the woodblock from pre-existing cards, without bothering about the reversal-effect of woodcuts. In any case, the pattern on the backs is relatively insignificant in relation to the issues here.

The Banner

One possibly significant thing is the mere existence of the banner with words on it, in the Vievil Temperance image. Looking in Kaplan, it would appear that banners with words are relatively rare in tarot, after the "A Bon Droit" and "Mio Amor" of the Visconti and Sforza. There are the "I will reign" etc. inscriptions on the von Bartsch Wheel of Fortune, repeated in the printed 16th century sheets of Italian cards (Kaplan I p. 125, II pp. 272, 276). There is a banner on the Tarot de Paris Four of Coins (Kaplan II pp. 310-311): it has "APARIS PAR " written on the banner. The "APARIS" is written backwards, mirror style, while the PAR appears in the regular way. "APARIS" is how we know the deck is Parisian. The writing after "PAR" is rubbed out. (Modern image enhancement techniques might recover it, I don't know.) I also see banners on the backs of the nine partial decks of the "Group 2" Sforza Castle cards, which show classical personages with banners above them labeling who they are (added later: an example is at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=753): Saturno, Veritas, Marte, Ercule, Proserpina, Pluto, Jove, Mercurio, and Venere (Kaplan II pp. 289-292). "Veritas" is a nice abstraction, like "Temperance," with a suitably female personage otherwise dissimilar. The fronts are all pips and courts. The borders of the backs show a diamond pattern. Kaplan says (p. 289)
Novati dates the cards to sixteenth-century Venice; Michael Dummett feels strongly that the cards should be attributed to Milan, sixteenth or seventeenth century.
The Temperance Allegory in the Tarot de Paris:

Bertrand wrote
The decks using the "sol fama" word are particularly puzzling regarding the temperance allegory - Vieville, Hautot and the Belgians. The Paris deck is close but different with the Atrempance representing a woman pouring water - to temper a fire ? or maybe is she pouring oil ... or maybe is she making a quenching ("trempe" in french).
The "temperance" thread doesn't propose anything close.
I wrote something about Temperance on Aeclectic that might be relevant, http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=2002483. You don't need to read it: I'll repeat the relevant part here.

There is perhaps a connection between what you describe as happening in the Tarot de Paris Temperance and what is happening in the Vieville and the Geoffrey. Those two, at least, are clear enough. They show a lady pouring water with one hand into another container, which she is not holding by a handle. Here are all three, in their probable temporal order:

Catelin Geoffrey (http://www.poker168.com/bwg/bwg_tl6.htm):
Image


Tarot de Paris (http://www.poker168.com/bwg/bwg_tl7.htm ... /t7/15.jpg[/img]

Vievil (Huck, what is your source? I haven't seen this card in color before):
Image


In my Aeclectic post, I associated the image in the Geoffrey--and now I would add the Vievil and perhaps the Tarot de Paris--with Hebe, cupbearer to the gods before being married off to Hercules and replaced by Ganymede. She gave the gods their periodic dose of nectar, which kept them immortal. Any mortals who were to be elevated to immortality also got this drink. Psyche is an example. An analogy with the Eucharist is evident.

Pagan heroes--Psyche, Hercules--got the drink as their reward. It put them in the Elysian Fields, or better. Hence it is the reward for "fama."

Hebe also was noteworthy for her power to forgive sins. Pausanias wrote:
Of the honours that the Phliasians pay to this goddess the greatest is the pardoning of suppliants. All those who seek sanctuary here receive full forgiveness, and prisoners, when set free, dedicate their fetters on the trees in the grove. (http://www.theoi.com/Ouranios/Hebe.html)
Cartari, 1581 (http://www.uni-mannheim.de/mateo/camena ... /s038.html), depicts her as in Pausanias, with an account based on him. Again there a pagan parallel to the Eucharist.

In art of the period, the scene of the steward at Cana pouring liquid from one jug to another is the commonest visual equivalent of the Temperance card, from Giotto on. It usually happens in the lower right hand corner. See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wedding_at_Cana

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_at_Cana (two examples)

For more, search in Google Images for either of these phrases.

Temperance, Alchemy, and Cooking

Bertrand wrote,
As a side note, regarding the "sol fama" in Vieville, an hypothesis that might interest in particular Mike H. (and might irritate some other fellows here) is that it is a reference to the FAMA from the Rose-Croix - this is developped in Charly Alverda's book "trois figures hiéroglyphiques" which proposes an alchemical lecture of the Vieville's deck.
Thanks for the reference; I will try to locate the book.

In relation to alchemy, O'Neill discusses a possible connection, not to the "fama" part, just to the liquid being poured from one vessel to another. He relates it to the alchemical process of distillation. He writes (Tarot Symbolism p. 283)
The stone volatilizes and rises in the retort. When it strikes the cooler upper portions, it condenses and falls. The pouring of water between the two ewers on the Temperance card suggests the same process. One alchemical image shows a woman, like the Tarot angel, presiding over the distillation represented as water flowing up and down between two vessels. (Footnote: Fabricius, Alchemy, fig. 105).
The image in Fabricius turns out to be one from Michael Maier's Symbolae aurae mensae of 1617, identified there as "Maria Prophetess."
Image


Zozimos of Panapolis in the fourth century had identified her as Maria or Miriam, the sister of Moses. That is not credible, but she could be the possibly real female alchemist, Maria the Jewess, 1st-3rd century Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_the_Jewess), said to have invented a method for heating alchemical material with a constant gentle heat. De Rola says of Maier's image (Golden Game p. 114):
The Mountain, in alchemical symbolism, is the Materia Prima, which must first be reincrudated, "made green again," in order to produce the desired results. The fumes rising and falling between the vessels symbolize the circular process of Dissolution and Fixation (Solve et Coagula), preceding the birth of the Quintessence--five flowers on a single stem.
Maier's symbolism of the five flowers representing the Quintessence again relates the image to the Eucharist: the Elixir grants eternal life to those who drink it often enough. The next two cards, Devil and Tower, as represented in the Marseille, might represent other stages in the purification process, down with the fire (as in Dante's Inferno) and then out the top (as in Purgatorio), finally entering Paradiso with the waters of the Star card (as in the two streams from which Dante drinks at the end of Purgatorio). Perhaps it is the people with "fama"--as opposed to "infamy"--that are included in Dante's Paradiso.

Today in France, as de Rola points out, the particular apparatus that Maria was said to have invented is known as a "bain marie." Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bain-marie) notes that
Bains-marie were originally developed for use in the practice of alchemy
. Wikipedia cites a French culinary source plus the 4th century Zosimos text.

Interestingly for our purposes, Wikipedia adds:
According to culinary writer Giuliano Bugialli, the term comes from the Italian bagno maria, named after Maria de'Cleofa, who developed the technique in Florence in the sixteenth century.
Another source adds that the apparatus was introduced into France at the wedding of Catherine de'Medici in 1533 (http://www.answers.com/topic/1533).
The double boiler introduced to the French court by the cooks of Catherine de' Medici is known to Italians as a bagno maria after a legendary medieval alchemist named Maria de Cleofa, reputed author of Tradtor della Distillazone (about medicine, magic, and cookery); the French will call it a bain marie.

Another book, the Encyclopedia of Kitchen History, repeats the Catherine de'Medici story but says that this Maria was a Spanish alchemist (http://books.google.com/books?id=D7IhN7 ... fa&f=false). It adds that the derivation from Maria sister of Moses is in the works of Arnold of Villaneuve (calling this alchemist a "13th century physician"). I know from other sources that manuscripts allegedly by him were numerous in early 15th century Europe.

As a cooking implement, the Encyclopedia adds, the device was described by Caelius Apicius in "the world's oldest cookbook," from 4th century Rome. This "Apicius" had its first printed edition in 1498 Milan and 1500 Venice, according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apicius). In WorldCat (http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=au%3AA ... first_page), I see the 1498 and 1500 data; there seems also to have been one in 1503 Venice. Then nothing is listed until 1541, in Basel and Lyon-- by the same publishers as Alciato had, in fact.

I also see on-line a recipe from Apicius for soft-boiled eggs using a bain-marie (http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/233472.html); but the recipe itself doesn't specify the apparatus, just that the heat be "temprabis." More digging is needed, but need we be so picky?

So perhaps it was in the late 15th and the 16th century that the apparatus became well known, probably more due to to the publication of Apicius than of Zosimos or Arnold. Still, it would be of interest to know when the passage in Zosimos describing the technique was known in the West, and where in Arnold the apparatus is described. Perhaps Berthelot's translation of Zosimox has the answer (http://remacle.org/bloodwolf/alchimie/intro.htm), but if so I haven't found it.

In the Tarot de Paris, as Bertrand observes, there might be flames shooting up around the bottom of the stream. So perhaps the lady there is getting a bain marie ready, for alchemical purposes or just to whip up some nice Hollandaise.

Huck, I would be interested in knowing more about how the coins on the Tarot de Paris relate to the Catelin Geoffrey.

Re: Fame riddle

#47
I'm not sure, if the following list of "Tarocchi Appropriati" is still complete. Alciato's text should be mentioned, and there is this earlier finding, which possibly had been before 1500. Are there others?

http://trionfi.com/0/p/28/
1522 Rome: Pietro Aretino, "Pasquinate sopra il Conclave del 1521." (ms.) - (Berti and Vitali, 108 (no. 35) (full text))

1527 (pub. Venice): Teofilo Folengo (pseud. Merlin Cocai), "Il Caos del Triperuno."

1525-40 (or 1570) Pavia: Giambattista Susio (assumed), "Motti alle signore di Pavia sotto il titolo de i Tarochi." (ms.) - (Berti and Vitali 1987, 106 (no. 29); Berti 2007, 174-175)

1530-1560 Ferrara: Anonymous, "Trionphi de Tarocchi appropriati" (ms.) - (Berti and Vitali 1987, 107 (no. 32); Berti 2007, 175-176)

1530-1560 Ferrara: Anonymous, "Due sonetti amorosi." (ms.) - (Berti and Vitali 1987, 107-108( no. 33, text of one))

1534 Venice: Troilo Pomperan, "Triomphi de' Pomeran da Cittadela composti sopra li Terrochi in Laude delle famose Gentil donne di Vinegia." - (Kaplan 1986, pp. 9 and 185; Berti and Vitali 1987, 106-107 (no. 30))

1547 Trent: Leonardo Colombino, "Il Trionfo Tridentino." (ms., partially published) - (Berti 2007, 177-178)

1553 Florence: Anonymous, "I Germini, sopra quaranta meretrice della città di Fiorenza, dove si conviene quattro ruffiane, le quali danno a ciascuna il trionfo, ch'e a loro conveniente dimostrando di ciascuna il suo essere." - (Berti and Vitali 1987, 107 (no. 31); Berti 2007, 178)

1559 Rome: Paolo Giovio (assumed), "Gioco di Tarocchi fatto in Conclavi." - (Depaulis 1986, 117-127 and 160; Berti and Vitali 1987, 109 (no. 36); Dummett 1993, 411; Berti 2007, 173)
For Alciato's complete text it would be nice to have it translated, not only the key list ... perhaps something is inside, which helps to understand something of the general situation.

For the specific key text we have Andrea Vitali's suggestion ...
Mundus habet primas, croceas dein Angelus alis:
Tum Phoebus, luna, & stellæ, cum fulmine dæmon:
Fama necem, Crux ante senem, fortuna quadrigas:
Cedit amor forti & justo: regemque sacerdos,
Flaminicam (1) regina præit que is campo propinat
Omnibus: extremo stultus discernitur actu.

The world has the primate, then the golden winged angel;
Then Phoebus, the moon and the stars, the devil with the lightening;
Fame precedes death, the cross the old man, fortune the chariot;
Love gives up to the strong and justice, the priest precedes the king,
The queen precedes the high priest’s wife, the innkeeper offers drinks
To all these ones, at last the fool is recognizable by his behavior.

(1) The flaminica was a priestess of Jupiter, wife of a flamen (priest), one of the higher religious offices in ancient Rome. Here for High Priestess.
http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=126


Andrea translates "innkeeper" from "Flaminicam regina præit que is campo propinat
Omnibus: extremo stultus discernitur actu."
I read more ... ""Flaminicam regina præit queis caupo propinat
Omnibus: extremo stultus discernitur actu."

... and Caupo is indeed "the tradesman" or "the innkeeper" or "the shopkeeper". So this is just a typo, I would assume.

Have we this "Caupo" elsewhere used, for instance for the "innkeeper" in chess (which is the pawn before the Queen's side bishop)? Or in any other Tarot context as an expression for Bateleur magician? And have we the "crux" as name for the Hanging man elsewhere?

Image

Image


*******************

In the Piscina text 1565 I found The expression "fama" in context of the Hanging Man, who loses all his fame and name before death.
Questo vecchio segue l' Impiccato giunto à questo punto per haver sprezzato il buon conseglio, il qual l' Inventor ha posto per rappresentare un' huomo tristo, falso, vitioso, pestifero, e brevemente concludendo (poi che il buon Conseglio dipende dalle virtù) [18] per un' huomo privo a fatto d' ogni virtù che senza consiglio come disperato s' è impicato, per dimonstrar & avisar il pessimo fine che fanno i speratori de i prudenti consegli, e per conseguenza delle virtù, la qual sorte di gente per essere meritevolmente da ogniuno odiata morendo perde dal tutto la soa fama, e nome come se giamai non fosse nata, e per ciò segue la Morte che spenge del tutto lor memoria, la qual Morte per esser estremo male, si come soleva dir Saffo poi che così havevano giudicato, i Dij non havendo voluto parteciparne, però va dietro à mali e à vitij, ben che si puo dire e non senza qualche avveduta ragione che sia posta doppo tutte l' altre precedenti figure quivi la Morte, per significare che tutte quelle delle quali particolarmente di ciascuna habbiamo trattato siano soggetto alla Morte. come Papi, Imperatori, Triomphi, Fortezze, Vitij, e tutte l' altre sopranominate figure, e questo si verifica che doppo questa Morte nel Decimoterzo numero posta, non segue cosa sopra la qual ella habbi possanza alcuna.

The old man is followed by the Hanged Man, who came to this point because he despised all good advice. The Inventor has placed him to represent a dishonest, false, vicious, pestiferous man: in order to conclude briefly (since good advice depends on virtues) [18] a man completely devoid of any virtue, who hanged himself being as a desperate man without counsel. This shows the terrible end of those that despise prudent advice and, as a consequence, virtues: such people are rightly hated by everyone, and when they die they lose all their fame, and name, as if they were never been born. Follows Death, that completely extinguishes any memory of them. As Sappho used to say, Death is the extreme evil, because the Gods did not want to take any part in it: this is why it follows the evils and the vices. But we can also say, not without some wise reason, that Death is placed here, after all the preceding figures, to mean that all of those of which we have discussed in detail are subject to Death, as Popes, Emperors, Triumphs, Strengths, Vices, and all the other above mentioned figures. And this is verified by the fact that after Death, placed in the thirteenth place, there follows nothing on which it has any power.

In this interpretation of Death as a marking cut between lower part and upper part of the Tarot cards row I feel remembered to that, what I've analyzed in the Fama-Sol riddle ...

Tarot cards 0-5 = the usual 6 persons
Tarot card 6 = Love
Tarot cards 7-12 = 6 cards, which somehow present Chastity (as a theory), from which
Tarot card 12 = Hanging Man = NO FAME (according Piscina)
Tarot card 13 = Death
--------------------------------------------- cut (according Piscina)
Tarot card 14 = Fama
Tarot Cards 15-20 = 6 cards, which somehow present Time (as a theory)
Tarot card 21 = Eternity


A "Sol" appears a little earlier in the Piscina text in context to Fortuna as a quote from Ariost ...
Che dona è tole ogni altro ben Fortuna
Sol in virtù non ha possanza alcuna

Fortune gives and takes everything
only on virtue it has no power
Translations and text from http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Piscina_Discorso_4

I've doubts, if this was an "intentional meeting" of Fama and Sol with the quality of "deeper context", but who knows.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#48
hi Mike,
MikeH wrote:Vievil (Huck, what is your source? I haven't seen this card in color before)
I don't remember ... somewhere in the web I would assume.
Huck, I would be interested in knowing more about how the coins on the Tarot de Paris relate to the Catelin Geoffrey.
The coins of the Tarot de Paris give heraldic information ... this information fixes the date to 1559, on the background, that it was already clear, that the Gonzaga line took influence on the distribution of Tarocchi in France with Isabella d'Este as wife of Francesco Gonzaga taking part in Trionfi card activities at the begin of 16th century and also in GREAT politic and with the Gonzaga princess in 1637 causing the printing of some Tarocchi rules in France).

1559 is just near to 1557, the year of the Catelin Geofroy production. Beside that the style of the Geofroy deck is similar to the style of Tarot de Paris (If one would put Geofroy, Tarot de Paris, Vievil, Noblet, Tarot de Marseille at one table, I would say, that easily Vievil-Noblet-Tarot de Marseilles are fixed as one group and Geofroy-Tarot-de-Paris as another).
Only indirectly counts, that (Gonzaga-)Nevers is near to Lyon: The Gonzaga marriage to Nevers took place 1565, so after 1559. But the marriage of Louis Gonzaga to Rethel-Nevers likely proves, that Gonzaga already had been active in the Eastern border region of France before, so likely he was occasionally near Lyon.

So mainly Tarot de Paris and Catelin Geofroy are "just near in time".

The name Catelin Geofroy reappears in a document 1598. The duke Lorraine is interested, that some Tarocchi production should start in Lorraine. This Catelin Geofroy might be a son or relative to an earlier Catelin Gefroy, considering 41 years between 1557 and 1598.
Google snippet of Game of Tarot (Dummett):

A Catelin Geoffroy is recorded as having worked as a cardmaker in Lyons between 1582 and 1603 and the letter of Duke Charles III of Lorraine authorising the establishment of cardmaking businesses in Nancy exhorted the cardmakers to ...


Which somehow explains, that ... after Rene II, duke of Lorraine (1451 – 1508), played with Trionfi cards in 1495 ... Lorraine likely hadn't a running Tarocchi card production in 1598. Considering the general time, then it might be, that this interest was inspired by the condition, that a new Italian princess might arrive at the French throne as Queen (Maria de Medici, married Henry IV of Navarra in 1600).

******************

Generally I'll take the recent Tarot de Paris analyses to another thread. I'm still fighting for some overview about some historical processes. 16th century is naturally a little foreign to me, so I easily could overlook something.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Fame riddle

#49
Huck wrote: In the Priscina text 1565 I found The expression "fama" in context of the Hanging Man, who loses all his fame and name before death . . .

Tarot card 12 = Hanging Man = NO FAME (according Priscina)
Tarot card 13 = Death
--------------------------------------------- cut (according Priscina)
Tarot card 14 = Fama
The principle of infamy (or shame, or loss of good name) v.fame as a spur that kindles one to virtue was a standard theme of educational and moral instruction - I think we have discussed it before but at the moment I can only find this:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php? ... stcount=68

According to Isidore of Seville however, fame includes both good and evil:

"There is also infamy (infamium), as it were 'without good report' (fama), and 'report' is so called because by speaking (fari), that is, talking, it roves about, creeping through the grapevine of tongues and ears. The term fama is also appropriate for both good and evil things, for 'report' is sometimes of both good and evil things, for 'report' is sometimes of good fortune, as in 'illustrious report.' which is praise. It is also of evils, as in Vergil (Aen.4.174):

Report (fama), than which no other evil is more speedy."

Fama as one who 'reports on one's good and evil' after death almost akin to one after death that presents one's soul for judgment?

Huck wrote:
Andrea translates "innkeeper" from "Flaminicam regina præit que is campo propinat
Omnibus: extremo stultus discernitur actu."
I read more ... ""Flaminicam regina præit queis caupo propinat
Omnibus: extremo stultus discernitur actu."

... and Caupo is indeed "the tradesman" or "the innkeeper" or "the shopkeeper". So this is just a typo, I would assume.

Have we this "Caupo" elsewhere used, for instance for the "innkeeper" in chess (which is the pawn before the Queen's side bishop)? Or in any other Tarot context as an expression for Bateleur magician? And have we the "crux" as name for the Hanging man elsewhere?
Yes, a typo - in the text it is:

“... caupo propinat Omnibus”

Caupo ~ innkeeper
Propino, are: to drink as a toast: to pass on (a cup).

“the innkeeper drinks a toast (or 'passes the cup') to all.” It may also mean 'yield' the innkeeper yields to all (as the trump does in the game, being the lowest).
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Fame riddle

#50
SteveM wrote: The principle of infamy (or shame, or loss of good name) v.fame as a spur that kindles one to virtue was a standard theme of educational and moral instruction - I think we have discussed it before but at the moment I can only find this:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php? ... stcount=68
Nice ...
kwaw wrote:So we have infamy (in the form of the hanged man) and fame (identified with the figure of temperance) on either side of death. Fama here triumphing over death, and against the idea of the hanged man kicking againts the prick/goad/sting, we have also Fama as the sting/prick/goad to virtue:

From The Iconologia of Cesare Ripa

"Hesiodus proves, in the beginning of his book of the works and days, that a strife to honor and a good name is very honorable; because by this strife, the virtuous seem to strive with those who run with them, and seems to have a little advantage of him; hence comes the proverb: "Figulus figulum adit", "It is the one beggar's woe, that he sees the other give." And this we see amongst all artists of one Trade, how virtuous soever they be, that the one envies the other. This we see also among the Learned, that the one lessens and dispises another's work, for they envy the good name of their virtuous Countrymen; and it happens often, that they praise those, after they are dead, whom in their lifetime they have dispised. The student being moved through a certain envy of honor, which is occasioned in him by the sting of an honorable name, desiring to excell above all others and to be held the supreme above all others, and this makes him moil and toil to arrive at all the signs of perfection.
The hieroglyphic figure of the good fame is the Trumpet, signifying renown and a good name, saith Pierius. For the same animates the soldiers, and awakens them out of their sleep. The same does the Trumpet of a good fame, for she awakens a virtuous mind of the sleep of laziness, and causes them to stand always upon sentry, being willing to make a good progress in their exercises to get an [eternal] name of honor. The same does also the Trumpet among the soldiers, inflames their minds and makes them long for the Battle. The Trumpet of a good fame and honor, inflames also the mind with a sting of virtue; wherefore Plutarch speaks thus of moral virtue: "The lawgivers occasion in the cities love of honor and envy, but against the enemies they use Trumpets and flutes, to kindle the flame of wrath and desire of fighting." And certainly there is nothing that kindles the mind more to virtue than the Trumpet of fame and honor, and that especially in young men.
The crown, or garland, and palm adorned with Tassels, is a figure of the reward of virtue, by which the virtuous stand in a continual war and envy."
Your quote of Cesare Ripa gives the whole a military meaning.

Knowing about the map of the Habsburg countries in 1547, a little bit about the distribution of Tarot cards with Belgian Tarot, Tarot Besancon and Marseilles Tarot and the 60 years of Habsburg-France wars till 1559 and the speciality that "the region of Belgium/Picardy was a major battlefield", it seems clear to me, that the Belgian Tarot variant was transported by soldiers.
Indeed ... my "people under suspicion" for the production of the Tarot de Paris are also soldiers. Yes, and they fought in the Belgium/Picardy region, where the name Vieville has a natural origin ... .-) ... as already noted in this thread.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests

cron