Fame riddle

Dummett, Decker, Depaulis, Kaplan; here we document the people, places, and events that shaped Tarot History. (Credentials not required; but references, citations, and substantiating evidence may be requested at the door.)

Fame riddle

Postby Huck on 09 Nov 2011, 23:32

Ross in a post at LTarot in 2005 had found the following small poem from Alciato

Mundus habet primas, - World,
croceas dein Angelus alas: - Angel,
Tum Phoebus, luna, & stella, - Sun, Moon and Star,
cum fulmine daemon: - Tower and Devil
Fama necem, - Fama and Death
Crux antesenem, - Cross and old Man
fortuna quadrigas: - Fortune and Chariot
Cedit amor forti & justo, - love, force and justice
regemque sacerdos: - king and pope
Flaminicam regina - Flaminca and queen
praeit queis campo propinat Omnibus, - Magician
extremò stultus discernitur actu." - Fool


Andrea in these creative days published ...
"About the etymology of Tarot" ... http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=220&lng=ENG
But the jurist Andrea Alciati, the famous author of the Emblemata in another of his works, the Parergon Juris appeared for the first time in 1538, in Chapter XVI named De ludis nostri temporis interprets the etymology of the word in this way: “Interrogatus sæpissimè fui, an veteres lusum chartarum haberent, quo transigere tempora otiosi maximè solent. Respondi, nusquam me hoc legisse: habuisse quidem alios lusus, quos Jul. Pollux lib. IX recenset: hunc verò, quod equidem sciam, nemo prodidit: tametsi ille, qui vulgò Tarochorum dicitur, Gręcum etymum habeat, possunt enim [hetarochoi] hi sodales dici, qui cibi causa ad lusum conveniunt, & chartulis hoc ferè ordine lusitant.

(I have been asked many times, if ancients had cards game, with which today many lazy people use to spend their time. I have answered I have not read about that anywhere: actually they had other games that Julius Polluce describes in his IX book. But about his, nobody has ever written, even if the game that vulgarly is called game of tarots has a Greek origin. Can be called hetarochoi those “friends” who gather to play for food and use to play cards generally in this order).

Mundus habet primas, croceas dein Angelus alis:
Tum Phoebus, luna, & stellæ, cum fulmine dæmon:
Fama necem, Crux ante senem, fortuna quadrigas:
Cedit amor forti & justo: regemque sacerdos,
Flaminicam regina præit que is campo propinat
Omnibus: extremo stultus discernitur actu.

The world has the primate, then the golden winged angel;
Then Phoebus, the moon and the stars, the devil with the lightening;
Fame precedes death, the cross the old man, fortune the chariot;
Love gives up to the strong and justice, the priest precedes the king,
The queen precedes the high priest’s wife (4), the innkeeper offers drinks
To all these ones, at last the fool is recognizable by his behaviour.


The theme interest me in the moment just for a specific detail: the allegory Fama (unusual for nomal Tarot) gets Nr. 14 in the Tarot numerology in the poem.

With this "Fame follows Death (Nr. 13)", something which we perceive also in Petrarca's Trionfi poem: Love - Chastity- Death - Fame - Time - Eternity is there the sequence.

Now I see some other Fame allegories with Nr. 14

Image
Bodet-Tarot

Image
Vievil-Tarot

Bodet was from Belgia, and Vievil also was from Belgia (at least there's a deep suspicion, that he was).

And the Vievil-Tarot actually is much less a Tarot-de-Marseille-Typus than it is just a Belgian Tarot.

Here are motifs, which have much similarity to each other, but not to the Tarot de Marseille

Image
Image
Hermit is turned to his left , and in the Marseille-Tarot the Hermit is turned to his right.


Image
Image
upside-down-change


Image
Image
Another devil

Image
Image
A tree instead a Tower

Image
Image
A star with astronom

Image
Image
A special moon

Image
Image
a man on horse instead twins

Image
Image

I've no Fool for the Bodet, but other Fools of Belgian Tarots are similar. The tables of the Magicians are turned left-right

Image
Image

The world is different ... in this the Vievil goes to the Tarot de Marseille.


So ... what shall one conclude from this?
User avatar
Huck
member
 

Re: Fame riddle

Postby Bertrand on 10 Nov 2011, 10:16

Hello,
Huck wrote:and Vievil also was from Belgia (at least there's a deep suspicion, that he was).
Where did you get that from ?
From what I remember Vieville is supposed to be an influence to later Belgian tarots, or at least share a common source, but why would he be from Belgium ? As he be noted anywhere else than Paris (1643,1648,1663,1664 from Depaulis ?
Adam de Hautot made a "Belgian Tarot" but he was from a long time family of cardmaker from Rouen. That doesn't make him a belgian, does it ?
So ... what shall one conclude from this?
that the Belgian tarot may have a french origin ?
Bertrand
member
 
Location: Paris - France
Favorite Deck: Viéville

Re: Fame riddle

Postby Huck on 10 Nov 2011, 13:04

Bertrand wrote:Hello,
Huck wrote:and Vievil also was from Belgia (at least there's a deep suspicion, that he was).
Where did you get that from ?


I personally took this from my own considerations ... some older entries in my older note books, it seems I forgot to add occasionally a link, where I got it from:

I wished to know something about the names Noblet and Vieville (especially I wished to know, if they are rare) and used the following method:

Noblet
in 1891-1915 (25 years) totally 848 births in France
in the Southern part of France nearly none (so VERY likely NOT from Marseille)
most in the Northern half of France
about 40-45% from the Bretagne (the 3 first places),
44 births in Ain (4th place) ... suspicious region
44 births in Paris (4th place) ...
43 births in Saone et Loire (6th place)... suspicious region
http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/car ... &image.y=8

Vievil ... zero, nobody has the name

Vieville
in 1891-1915 (25 years) totally 329 births in France
75% are from two departements at the Belgian frontier (1st and 2nd place) ... suspicious region
22 births in Paris (3rd place)
The suspicion seems given, that Vieville appears also in Belgium very much (this couldn't be confirmed).
Google maps knows four locations with "Vieville", all relatively small, so likely it's not a city-name
http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/car ... &image.y=9

********************

Vivielle
This page ...
http://www.nom-famille.com/nom-vieville.html
tells, that Vieville is the 3388th most used name, so rather rare (in Paris the 8848th name, so there below the distribution average)
Nowadays it is estimated, that 2.039 persons have this name (roughly counted from about 60.000.000 modern inhabitants of France this would be one between 30.000). Paris is estimated to have 75 living persons with the name Vieville.

Noblet
This page ...
http://www.nom-famille.com/nom-noblet.html
tells that Noblet is the 1358th name and 4110 have it (so it's about twice often used, so about 1 of 15.000 has this name). In Paris it is the 8608th name (so VERY much below the distribution average). Paris is estimated to have today 75 Noblet inhabitants.

**********************

From this observation I attempt to build a sort of theory (or better said, a speculation) about the two persons, which interest us, Noblet and Vieville, both card producers in Paris.

http://www.demographia.com/dm-par90.htm
Paris is given for 1637 with 415,000 persons at 4.3 qkm, which are 96,512 per qkm, a rather unbelievable density.

The modern city of Paris is given with 2.100.000 inhabitants, but much more qkm's (105). As this seems larger, one has to calculate, that possible the earlier Paris had some additional people in locations "around Paris", maybe further 50.000 or so.

A straight way to make a sort of conclusion, would be to say:

2.100.000 Parisian inhabitants have 75 living Vievilles
so 415.000 (about 1/5th of 2.100.000) should have had 15 (= 75/5) living persons

... well, there are naturally disturbing factors, one of them would (probably) increase the number, the other would decrease it.

The increasing factor would be, that there were likely much less names around 1650, so naturally there should have been more Vievilles in Paris.
The decreasing factor would be, that there were less wanderers (people, who changed the major location during their life), and as we clearly see, that the name Vieville came from the region of the French/Belgique frontier, Vieville seems to be a foreigner in Paris. So - naturally, according this logic - there should be less living Vievilles in Paris.
Other factors might have played a role. Carefully I would say, that perhaps the suspicion might be justified, that something like 5-25 living Vievilles might have been in Paris in 1650. Similar the Noblets, which are also 75 nowadays.

Vieville

1643 is the moment, when Vieville started his business in Paris. A "wandering process" is often connected to a wedding, and a wedding is often connected to the birth of child soon later.

Well ... it seems, that Vieville came from the French/Belgian frontier (nowadays 75% of the Vievilles live there). That's the region of Rouen and Rouen produced playing cards and generally the Flemish countries were well known for engravings.
Well ...
Robert Mealing once wrote ...
"The Tarot of Jacques Vieville seems to also be related to, (and is sometimes classified as), the "Belgian Tarot".
http://www.tarothistory.com/vieville.html
...
:-) ... somehow, two very different methods come to the same conclusion.

Noblet

I found another Noblet in Paris around the same time. An architect, working for the king, somehow connected to triumphal celebrations around the late 1650's (!!!!), the name should be Michel Noblet. Relationship: probable cause the already mentioned reasons, rare name etc., and a successful brother, cousin or uncle would attract relatives to settle in the same city.

Michel Noblet had been son-in-law to this man (another, likely more famous architect)
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Villedo

Here Michel Noblet appears in another biography (lived at least till 1667 and was dead 1683
http://books.google.com/books?id=yAp7Oi ... iv&f=false

Michel Noblet's father-in-law (Michel Villedo) and his son-in-law Liberal Bruand became more successful than Michel Noblet, at least as far one can conclude this from the relevant few biographical material (more snippets, at least for me in the moment).


Image
That's the modern distribution of French Tarot Clubs. Dark green is much (till 15), white is no Tarot Club in the region. Dark green appears massive in the specific region, which earlier belonged to Burgundy (near to Nevers), but also North, near to Belgium. [/quote]

***************

Bernard wrote:So ... what shall one conclude from this? that the Belgian tarot may have a french origin ?


Well, we've a phenomenon, that French persons in the second half of 17th century got the opinion (a French physician at the French court 1655 and Menestrier in 1704, if Iunderstood Ross correctly), that the Tarot game came from Germany, but Thierry Depaulis in a recent article argues with valid arguments, that there's not much indication for this in documents - as far we understand "Germany" in the context of 20th/21th century. But for the interpretation of the opinions of people living in the second half of 17th century we need some calculation, what they might have interpreted as "German".

So there's the question, if a Belgian card maker Vievil might have been perceived as "German" and if a Gonzaga-princess as part of the dukedom Nevers-Rethel in 1637, who arranged, that the first French Tarot rules were written by Marolles, might have been also "a German lady" in French eyes. France was growing in 17th century and already before, but how long took it for the "original French citizens" to call the "New French citizens" then "real French citizens"? I think, that such developments can take centuries.

I see the possibility, that Vievil brought a Belgian Tarocchi deck to Paris ... where it took its own development. And that the Belgian original also took its own development with cards, which we don't find in the Marseille Tarot, the Bacchus and the figure of the Commedia dell'Arte.
Naturally one shouldn't forget the importance of the Besancon Tarocchi (and its relationship to the Belgian development), but we have no early examples.

Well ... and very important, one shouldn't forget the dukes of Nevers-Rethel. This were Italians, the Gonzagas ... but in Italy 15th/16th century the Gonzagas were taken as "Germans". That's really difficult.
The dukes of Nevers-Rethel were ideal to import Italian customs (and playing card customs) to France. Their territory was Rethel (near Luxembourg, near Belgium) and Nevers between Lyon and Paris, the both French capitals. And Lyon was the major playing card location around 1500 and later. And with the nearness of Rethel to Belgium the house of Nevers-Rethel could easily explain, why we have a Besancon development and a Belgian Tarocchi development with strong similarities.

An then French Tarot dies for unknown reasons in the period 1650-60. Marolles himself tells 1657, that earlier Tarot had been quite popular, but recently ... what had happened? Cause the Mantovan Gonzaga house hadn't a heir, the French house Nevers-Rethel lost its head for a return to Italy. The whole operation causes a war: The "Mantuanische Erbfolgekrieg" or in French: "Guerre de Succession de Mantoue" (1628 – 1631).
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerre_de_ ... de_Mantoue
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the ... Succession

So one force of French Tarocchi card promotion was gone. The remaining Gonzaga-Nevers-princess arranged, that the Tarot rules are written and somehow she plays some years a role in the social life of Paris. But then - she goes to Poland and becomes the wife of two Polish kings. And with this, as one has to assume ... the French Tarocchi life seems to have lost its energies. Marolles, who published his autobiography 1657, states: Tarocchi had been earlier in much use.
The Gonzagas sell their countries to Mazarin, the French chancellor in 1659. The Tarocchi game was lost in France. It recovered, but this seems to have followed later.

Following the Gonzaga line to its earlier roots we find Isabella d'Este, who had been once playing card player, playing card collector and even playing card producer, as it seems. Her brother had been Alfonso d'Este, duke Ferrara, who produced Tarochi decks in 1505. In the earlier family (Este) we find Leonello d'Este, who paid for 4 Trionfi decks in February 1442, made by Sagramoro, the first Trionfi deck producer, which we know of.

Image

Back to your question:
Bernard wrote:So ... what shall one conclude from this? that the Belgian tarot may have a french origin ?

No, no, somehow vice versa.
User avatar
Huck
member
 

Re: Fame riddle

Postby Bertrand on 10 Nov 2011, 16:51

Hello Hugh,

if you pardon me this looks like a pretty verbose but quite shallow development.
Hugh wrote:in 1891-1915
quite out of our time frame.
Hugh wrote:Nowadays
but what about the XVIIth century ?
Hugh wrote:The Tarot of Jacques Vieville seems to also be related to, (and is sometimes classified as), the "Belgian Tarot".
http://www.tarothistory.com/vieville.html
I've always seen it the other way round and will continue to do so - since there are positive arguments, contrary to your imaginary hypothesis. Depaulis wrote in "Tarot, jeu et magie"
Depaulis wrote:it seems certain that the brusselan cardmakers had a french model, maybe from Rouen
.
Of course, you can easily forge a belgian origin hypothesis if you overlook Adam de Hautot.
Hugh wrote:but Thierry Depaulis in a recent article argues with valid arguments, that there's not much indication for this in documents - as far we understand "Germany" in the context of 20th/21th century. But for the interpretation of the opinions of people living in the second half of 17th century we need some calculation, what they might have interpreted as "German".
so what do we do with earlier (XVIth century) tarots from Lyon, and earlier tarots from Paris (the anonymous, early XVIIth)...
So there's the question, if a Belgian card maker Vievil
assuming he was belgian which I doubt anybody might be convinced of if based on the argumentation you propose above.

A fancy fiction, but pretty inconsistent.

Bertrand
Bertrand
member
 
Location: Paris - France
Favorite Deck: Viéville

Re: Fame riddle

Postby Huck on 10 Nov 2011, 19:59

Well, if you think so ...
.... what's your answer, why the French court physician Borel in 1655 expressed the opinion, that the Tarot cards came from Germany?
http://books.google.com/books?id=sJBbAA ... &q&f=false

see Tharauts ...
This dictionary was variously repeated in the next 100 years.
see also
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=611&p=8914&hilit=1655#p8914

And why it was repeated by Menestrier 1704? Ross recently stated:
There is also the tara (French tare) theory. This explanation goes back as far as the venerable Menestrier, in 1704.

"As it was the Germans who first invented woodcut impression, they were also the first to print playing Cards. It is true that they made many extravagant figures, very different from ours, since they showed God, Angels, the Devil, the Pope, the Popess, Kings, Fools etc., and to make them more practical without being easily dirtied or recognized by the backs, they covered them with criss-crossing lines in the form of a Mesh [Rezeüil=reseau] which gave them the name Tarcuits and Cards Tarautées. Because the word Tare, flaw, waste, or stain, is properly a hole, of which the Etymology is the Greek word tiréin, Terebro, torno, vulnero teredòn Teredo, the worm that eats wood, Terebra Tariere to pierce, Terere to crumple, worn off from rubbing. Tare is thus any sort of stain, flaw, or waste; a work taré, is a work punctured, used, scratched, from which was formed the word Tarif for a sheet of paper or a table divided by lines and by squares, to mark the tax on Foodstuffs and Merchandise to pay at the Customs desk, and the tablets on which were marked the price and estimation of payment according to their additions and subtractions. Also in Blazon one says a “casque tarre” [helmet “tarre”], that is to say one which has a meshed (or slotted) visor." (Bibliothèque curieuse et instructive, II, 179)

True, he puts in every meaning and the kitchen sink, but in the penultimate meaning (deduction) he hits on the common etymology found in most lexicographical works, e.g. the Grand Robert: TAROT n.m. --- 1604; 1534, Rabelais; Ital tarocco, de tara "tare", de l'arabe tarh 'Deduction"
(note that he also attributes the invention of Tarot to the Germans; the logic is impeccable, but he didn't have enough facts)


I don't have seen this text, but I would trust Ross in such things.

The French physician might well have an error, coming from the East of the country, but Menestrier, father of European playing card research, had a lot of his time in Lyon, a playing card production center. Why should he have an error in just such a point of recent history, not too far back from his on time? Menestrier, born 1631, might have had personal experience with Tarot players in his youth.
User avatar
Huck
member
 

Re: Fame riddle

Postby Bertrand on 10 Nov 2011, 22:50

Hugh wrote:Well, if you think so ...
.... what's your answer, why the French court physician Borel in 1655 expressed the opinion, that the Tarot cards came from Germany?
Germany ? Weren't you speaking about Belgium ? Sorry, pardon my poor english, I didn't know Germany was spelled B-E-L-G-I-U-M.
I don't have seen this text, but I would trust Ross in such things.
Ross sounds undoubtedly very trustable indeed, were did he state that Vieville or his tarot came from Brussel ? Oh, right, he just didn't.
Hugh wrote:Menestrier, born 1631, might have had personal experience with Tarot players in his youth.
1631... my memory might be faulty here, but I would swear early tarots in Lyon are from the XVIth century.
Supposing the Tarot in France finds its origin in Lyon - which I personaly believe, but wouldn't dare pretend to be a certain and demonstrable truth - it was already present at the end of XVIth, early XVIIth in Paris (anonymous), and was long established in Lyon in 1631, even more in 1641 when Menestrier might have been in age of being interested in that matter (quite precocely).

maybe, maybe not. Are there any substantial evidences ?

Bertrand
Bertrand
member
 
Location: Paris - France
Favorite Deck: Viéville

Re: Fame riddle

Postby Huck on 11 Nov 2011, 06:27

Bertrand wrote:Germany ? Weren't you speaking about Belgium ? Sorry, pardon my poor english, I didn't know Germany was spelled B-E-L-G-I-U-M.


Ah, sorry. Maybe my text was arranged too confusing, but I wrote before ...

Well, we've a phenomenon, that French persons in the second half of 17th century got the opinion (a French physician at the French court 1655 and Menestrier in 1704, if Iunderstood Ross correctly), that the Tarot game came from Germany, but Thierry Depaulis in a recent article argues with valid arguments, that there's not much indication for this in documents - as far we understand "Germany" in the context of 20th/21th century. But for the interpretation of the opinions of people living in the second half of 17th century we need some calculation, what they might have interpreted as "German".

So there's the question, if a Belgian card maker Vievil might have been perceived as "German" and if a Gonzaga-princess as part of the dukedom Nevers-Rethel in 1637, who arranged, that the first French Tarot rules were written by Marolles, might have been also "a German lady" in French eyes. France was growing in 17th century and already before, but how long took it for the "original French citizens" to call the "New French citizens" then "real French citizens"? I think, that such developments can take centuries.


I think, that the opinions of Menestrier and Borel (apparently contradicting to that, what Depaulis found in his attempts to find an old German Tarot) would make sense, if we move our opinion, what might have been "Germany" or "German" in mid 17th century.
In our study of the Roman imports in the period 1445-1484 I found a sentence of the author, according which Burgundian territory was then addressed as "German".
France was expanding its territory in the following time, and it is a question, when "generally opinons" followed new political conditions. Belgium itself didn't exist as a state till 1830 or so. Till nowadays the Belgians part themselves in Wallons and Flemish, and further there is a smaller German speaking part ... and still they've political trouble around these splitting conditions.

Ross sounds undoubtedly very trustable indeed, were did he state that Vieville or his tarot came from Brussel ? Oh, right, he just didn't.


Ross was only quoted, and Ross related only to Menestrier, and it was me, who stated, that some things would make much more sense, if we assume an old Belgian Tarot, which was brought to Paris by Jacques Vievil.

For the influence of the dukes of Nevers-Rethel we have, that Rethel had its attachment to the most central place Aix-des-Chapelles, also called Aachen, also to Luxembourg. In the list of the rulers and owners are counts of Cleve, and that's definitely not France.

Image
... :-) ... For historic reasons: it's 11.11.11 today and for a specific moment at 11.11.11 a.m. you will have thousands of Cologne carnival fans at the Alter Markt opening the Carnival season, reflecting such curious things like the foundation of the Narren-Ritterorden (knight order of the Fool) by Graf Adolf von Kleve at 12th November 1381 and "das unabhängige Rheinland" from c. 1923, which perhaps would have avoided a lot of trouble like WWII for instance. Also this map of 843 ...

Image

... with Lothar I reigning in middle Europe named "Lotharingen" and the proud period, when ...

Image

In 260 AD Postumus made Cologne the capital of the Gallic Empire which included the German and Gallic provinces, Britannia and the provinces of Hispania.




So in this context I might remember to the condition, that "Nations are Imaginations" and the real earth has the more enduring conditions ... :-) ...


1631... my memory might be faulty here, but I would swear early tarots in Lyon are from the XVIth century.
Supposing the Tarot in France finds its origin in Lyon - which I personally believe, but wouldn't dare pretend to be a certain and demonstrable truth - it was already present at the end of XVIth, early XVIIth in Paris (anonymous), and was long established in Lyon in 1631, even more in 1641 when Menestrier might have been in age of being interested in that matter (quite precocely).

maybe, maybe not. Are there any substantial evidences ?

Bertrand


I think, the first known evidence of Tarot in Lyon is the fragment of the Catelin Geofroy deck 1557. This had rather unusual suits (parrots, peacocks, lions, one suit missing), and this were clearly derived from Vigil Solis 1544 (parrots, peacocks, lions, MONKEYS) ... so the whole is indicating a German-French cooperation.

Image

The triumphing figure has - astonishing - flowers in his hands. All, what we can say, this doesn't look like the iconographic way to the Tarot de Marseille.

Vigil Solis ... here's a reconstruction deck:
http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks07/d05352/d05352.htm

Image

Somewhere we found a late 16th century document, in which Catelin Geofroy was mentioned. I don't find it again, but Dummett seems to have known it.

Google snippet of Game of Tarot:
A Catelin Geoffroy is recorded as having worked as a cardmaker in Lyons between 1582 and 1603 and the letter of Duke Charles III of Lorraine authorising the establishment of cardmaking businesses in Nancy exhorted the cardmakers to ...

The duke of Lorraine wished to produce Tarot cards in the style of Geoffroy, as far I remember, short before the marriage Henry IV of Navarra with an Italian Medici daughter. Possibly cause of this reason the French interest in Tarot was raised (it seemed, that Lorraine, though not far from Lyon, hadn't Tarot cards before; as far I remember).

maybe, maybe not. Are there any substantial evidences ?


For what? Evident is, that the Vievil deck, that we know, had before any known Tarot deck made with Marseille Tarot style or Belgian Tarot style elements of both. Further we have, that two more or less contemporary opinions state, that the Tarot game came from Germany. Which meets the correct statement of Depaulis, that this hardly could be ... if we understand this "Germany" from a 20th century perspective.

Another fact is, that the Tarot de Marseille carries emotions with partly national tendencies, as if there would be something very special in this question. Something like this is usually not very good for a fair critical judgment in history.
The Marseillaise was written 1792, a good time later than the Vievil Tarot was made, in a time, when card playing (also Tarot) had gained a lot of friends. Depaulis thinks, that the interest in Tarot in the second part of 17th century was nearly gone ... .-)

... :-) the modern Cologne Carnival was invented 1823, when the French occupation of the city really was gone ...
User avatar
Huck
member
 

Re: Fame riddle

Postby Bertrand on 11 Nov 2011, 12:56

Huck wrote:So there's the question, if a Belgian card maker Vievil might have been perceived as "German"
That's once again assuming vievil was not parisian nor "french" as it was understood then, and/or that its tarot pattern came from germany, for which you still don't give any positive argument - except some names statistics from centuries later which are completely off topic.
From what we know of this specific pattern, it is unique, emerges in France, present some similarities with earlier bolognese pattern as well as with its contemporary french tarot pattern, and also similarities with milanese tarots, such as castello sforzesco cards.
Then we have evidence that this pattern is encountered later in France (Hautot which is undoubtedly a french dinasty of cardmakers) and then later in Belgium.

Huck wrote:Ross was only quoted,
he was here presented by you as a guarantee for your own development, except he certainly doesn't come to the same conclusions as you do.

For historic reasons: it's 11.11.11 today and for a specific moment at 11.11.11 a.m. you will have thousands of Cologne carnival fans at the Alter Markt opening the Carnival season
sorry here in France we are busy with other historical celebrations which may or may not have lead to WWII.
Huck wrote:... with Lothar I reigning in middle Europe named "Lotharingen" and the proud period,
you'll agree it's an extremely wrong time frame regarding the tarots, pretty much as pertinent as the egyptians or the knight templars.
In 260 AD
it's getting worse...
Huck wrote:I think, the first known evidence of Tarot in Lyon is the fragment of the Catelin Geofroy deck 1557. This had rather unusual suits (parrots, peacocks, lions, one suit missing), and this were clearly derived from Vigil Solis 1544 (parrots, peacocks, lions, MONKEYS) ... so the whole is indicating a German-French cooperation.
It was predictable that you would note Catelin Geofroy, his numerals are most probably of german influence which has been a known fact for a while, but there's not much doubt neither he mixed a tarot game with experimental suits. We as weel may infer that he was able to do so because Tarot was well known and accepted in Lyon at the time, so one might dare experiment.
Anyhow I'm pretty sure that Tarot was played and known in Lyon long before Catelin Geoffroy fancy deck.
In 1580 in "les plaisants devis des seigneurs de la coquille", we can read j'ai toujours joué aux tarocs, mais non pas à la vieille mode (I always played tarocs, but not the old fashioned way), and then a lot of extremely clear references not only to the rules of the game but to the trump serie through their numbers, which imply they were extremely well known. If there was an old fashioned way and if one could make a text based on the trump numbers evocating their names, it's clear that the tarot was extremely well known there, for much more than only thirty years.

maybe, maybe not. Are there any substantial evidences ?

For what? Evident is, that the Vievil deck, that we know, had before any known Tarot deck made with Marseille Tarot style or Belgian Tarot style elements of both.
there's no point of talking of a "belgian tarot" prior to the XVIIIth century. Then the belgian tarot is much closer to the later Adam de Hautot's tarot from Rouen than to Vieville's.
Further we have, that two more or less contemporary opinions state, that the Tarot game came from Germany.
if we purposely forget the evidences that Tarot came from Italy...
Another fact is, that the Tarot de Marseille carries emotions with partly national tendencies, as if there would be something very special in this question. Something like this is usually not very good for a fair critical judgment in history.
many historical question relates to "national tendencies", in fact they both feed each other (see how you understand 11/11 and how I can see it from a french perspective). It gets only worse and more confuse when you extend the time frame to connect unrelated facts from tenth of centuries earlier.
Speaking of being fair :
Depaulis thinks, that the interest in Tarot in the second part of 17th century was nearly gone ...
that's a partial quote here - the interest for it was gone "in Paris" at the *end* of the XVIIth century.
... :-) the modern Cologne Carnival was invented 1823, when the French occupation of the city really was gone ...
and how does that relate to the subject of Tarot and the origin of Vievilles ? Again it doesn't at all, neither does "the marseillaise".
It's already quite difficult to follow the discussion with our broken english... so we should stick to the point, and the facts, and avoid hard to understand "jokes" (?)

Bertrand
Bertrand
member
 
Location: Paris - France
Favorite Deck: Viéville

Re: Fame riddle

Postby Huck on 11 Nov 2011, 17:06

Alright, let's take the fun aside.

Thanks to your resistance I took the opportunity to control my earlier developed perspective ... and I'd to correct this, as I earlier overlooked a few factors and hadn't some specific information. Well, that's very good and improvement and it connected to really new insights. So, thank you very much. But nonetheless I don't accept your statement "off topic" for name researches to determine the PROBABLE origin of a person ... as you'll see.

Image

That's the result from ...
http://www.geopatronyme.com/cgi-bin/car ... lient=cdip

That's a typical view of a one-place-only distribution of a name - very likely. But in my earlier research I expected "something from Belgium", which I didn't perceive through this tool, and I didn't find something comparable for Belgium. But now I found it, and the result was somehow paradox ....

Image
http://www.familienaam.be/

... only 8 persons in Belgium with the name Vieville in this time. Something like "at least about 50" might be considered as normal, considering that we have already between 1891 and 1915 about 250 at the other side near to the border. So you're very right, Vievil (the name is zero in France in this statistic) is very likely from France and not from from Belgium. But it is not far to Belgium.

Now we have a clear focus: the departement Aisle.
2/3 of all Vieville in France are from this departement.
If you estimate backwards to c. 1650, one likely has to assume, that something like 9/10 of all persons with the name Vieville should have belonged to the region of Aisle.
Now this focus of a family often has a local reason, and often it's the name of a place: in this case it seems to be the location Le Hérie-la-Viéville, very small (200-250 inhabitants nowadays), but with a greater church, which likely indicates some age (I found the location noted in books of 1818, about the real age I don't have information); there are other places with Vieville in the name, but they are not connected to a strong hit of the Vieville name statistic, as far I see it.
.
In Le Hérie-la-Viéville is a chateau, very big and very private. The momentary owners are not interested to be known through internet sources, that's my impression (the wikipedia page of the location says nothing about this big chateau, it only tells, that this location has 250 inhabitants or so). A very catholic school seems to be there, too. Ecole privée Notre-Dame des Victoires, it seems, there are very few pupils.
I leave this as it is for the moment ... but in the search for Vievil the Tarot painter we've reached a concrete location, which may be right or may be wrong ... there is no ultimate truth in this name researches, but some probabilities, which either lead to something, or which might lead to nothing. In this case "knowing Le Hérie-la-Viéville leads to something and this is rather direct connected to the assumed man under suspicion ...

Image
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Gonz ... _of_Nevers

He was a 3rd son of the Gonzaga-family in Mantova, and he was part of a series of high-nobility-level-marriages between France and Italy, in this case of HIGHEST INTEREST, as the Gonzagas had been clearly involved in the distribution story of Trionfi and Tarocchi cards. He was grand-son of Isabelle d'Este, who collected playing cards, and was the sister to Alfonso d'Este, who ordered the Tarochi cards in 1505 in Ferrara - which is the first known playing card connected use of this word.
Other HIGHEST INTEREST marriages are of course the marriage of Katherina de Medici to a French prince with the result, that she became Queen and King's mother for 42 years (1547-1589) and the dominant French figure for a rather long period. Another is Maria de Medici, who married Henry IV of Navarra, also Queen and King's mother for 42 years (1600-1642), also for some time the dominant figure in France, but finishing her life then finally ... ah, yes, right here in Cologne.
Then there are HIGHEST INTEREST marriages between the Este family and France, starting with Ercole II d'Este (duke of Ferrara 1534 to 1559) ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ercole_II_ ... of_Ferrara
... marrying Renee of France, daughter of king Louis XII. This marriage had its deep religious problems, but we know of the Roman document 1559 ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=654&p=9753&hilit=1559+rome#p9753
... that Ferrara definitely in this time had been very successfully established in the production of Tarocchi cards.
Btw.: the trader, who sells his business in 1559, has a lot of playing cards, between them also proucts of France. He offers also Tarocch cards, but nothing indicates French Tarocchi cards. In 1559, and that's before the Gonzaga-son marriage (1565).

*************
So, if we go now from this very small location Le Hérie-la-Viéville and reach soon something, which leads us to the suspicious person Ludovico Gonzaga, then, so I hope ... :-) ... you might recognize some value of the method of research. Right?
You haven't to go far, this village isn't big. There should be a street sign, but there isn't (Google street view), it's the rue de Guise, and if you follow it 8.3 km you reach it: Guise.



.... :-) ... I need a pause (8.3 km are long) and some reflection.
User avatar
Huck
member
 

Re: Fame riddle

Postby Huck on 14 Nov 2011, 14:16

hi Bertrand,

... first a little more to your skeptical statements against the method to deal with French name lists.

We have here a rather convincing example: Adam C. de Hautot is another French card maker and it's stated, that he was from Rouen. Kaplan II notes c. 1723 till 1748 as possible time for his "Belgian Tarot", which possibly is a "French Tarot", who knows.



The name researcher would also assume, clear, that Adam C. de Hautot should be with high probability somebody from the departement "Seine Maritime", to which Rouen belongs. And if the name researcher would also use Google maps, he would find "Hautot-sur-mer" - near Dieppe, which is the "most important port in Northern France for 17th century".
Well, and not far from Dieppe is the location "Eu", and, as we will later see this is a location of some importance for the Guise family. So, somehow, this result in connection to the given fact, that the Belgian Tarot type somehow appears in Rouen and the small village of Vieville in relative far distance, leads to the assumption, that the Guise family played a role in this curiosity. But this later ...

Another example is the name Camoin, also known as card producer in Marseille.



Indeed, from Marseille. In this case the "location-method" doesn't work, perhaps an indication, that the family had an old Marseille origin, per "old Marseille citizens".
Not all cases are so easy as Vieville, Hautot and Camoin. The method works easier for rare names and for small locations as the original place.


Chosson ... somehow from Lyon


Noblet ... very difficult, somehow from Northern France, especially from the Bretagne


Payen is interesting, as the name came (likely) from the region as the card maker Vievil. But the Tarot producer Jean Piere Payen is said to have been born in Marseille and worked then in Avignon, with an oldest known deck type from 1713 (according Kaplan). But a father Jean Payen is also noted and it might be, that it was he, who emigrated from the Northern region.

****************************

... now the riddle about the location Guise: Our suspicious person Ludovico Gonzaga married in 1565 the heiress of Rethel and Nevers. So he became involved with France and possibly in the story "Tarot in France". 5 years later the current duke of Guise, Henry I, then 20 years old, married a sister of the wife of Ludovico Gonzaga. So Ludovico
was brother-in-law to duke Henry III of Guise. So the condition, that near to the small location Le Hérie-la-Viéville something should be, which leads quick to the person under suspicion (Ludovico Gonzaga), is fulfilled, and the socalled "off topic" action is now justified just by success.

Here is this Henry ..
Image

.., with full name Henry III, Henry I, Prince of Joinville, Duke of Guise, Count of Eu (1550 – 1588), who was the eldest son of Francis, Duke of Guise, and Anna d'Este. And Anna d'Este was the child of Ercole d'Este II, Duke of Ferrara (who had established regular Tarocchi cards in Ferrara) and Renée of France (daughter of French king Louis XII). Renee had been accused by her own husband cause her Calvinism belief, and was released from prison only after her husbands death (1559). She went to Montargis in the Loiret departement nowadays, Loiret is in the neighborhood of Nevers) and helped the Huguenots.

But Henry III and Ludovico Gonzaga were against the Huguenots.

2 years after 1470 (marriage Henry III) the Bartholomeo massacre took place. Both participated - against the Huguenots, both clearly on the papal side. Another brother-of-law had married the third girl of the family. Unluckily this was a huguenot and he became victim in 1472, though only as prisoner. He died 1888, cause he was injured in battle 1887 or, as rumors claim, cause he was poisoned by his second wife.

Ercole d'Este, Anna d'Este's father (produced Tarocchi decks)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ercole_II_d%27Este
Renee of France, Anna d'Este's mother
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_of_France

Anna d'Este, mother of Henry III de Guise, an important woman at the court of the French queen and king's mother Katherina de Medici
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_d%27Este

Francis, Duke of Guise (Anna's 1st husband)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis,_Duke_of_Guise
..... a son of Claude, 1st duke of Guise
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude,_Duke_of_Guise
...... and grand-son of Renee II d'Anjou (played Trionfi cards in 1494)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_ ... f_Lorraine
........ and great-great-grand-son of Isabella de Lorraine (who got the Michelino deck in 1449), wife of Renee I d'Anjou

Henry I, Duke of Guise (Anna's oldest son)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_I,_Duke_of_Guise
husband to Catherine of Cleve
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_of_Cleves
who was sister to Henriette of Cleve
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henriette_de_Cl%C3%A8ves
who had married the mentioned "man under suspicion" Ludovico Gonzaga, who descended from Isabella d'Este, who was a sort of Trionfi card princess
as already given ... http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_IV_de_Nevers
and the both girls had a sister, Mary of Cleve
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_of_C ... Cond%C3%A9
who married at 10th of August 1472 the Prince of Condé
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_I_de ... Cond%C3%A9
who was a Huguenot and survived the Bartholomew day at 27th of August 1572 as a prisoner

... and all the three girls had a father
Francis, duke of Rethel and Nevers
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7 ... _de_Nevers
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7 ... _de_Nevers
http://en.wikipedia.org/ ... English wikipedia article is missing
Well, you have to read German wikipedia to get the information, that Francis fought a lot against the Germans and for French interests, and that he in his late years converted to Calvinism.

******************

Alright, that's a lot of stuff, but somehow it's recognizable, that this should have been the major "Tarocchi force", which entered France mainly from Italy.

Katherina de Medici
Anna d'Este
Ludovico Gonzaga
... all from Italy, and all high-level persons, who could move something in matters of playing cards.

But now let's take another look at a map of political reality:



A Habsburg map of 1547.

Here a detail:


I see Besancon inside this territory. A Besancon Tarot is known.
I see the region of Belgium. A Belgian Tarot is known, as discussed.
I see Tyrol. I know about cards from c. 1600 or so
I see Trieste. Tarot productions are known.
I see Milan. Well, Tarot indeed was known there, actually it is suspected, that the French Tarot developed from here.

Is this just accident, or in an unkown way connected to the true distribution of Tarocchi decks from Milan?

You spoke of missing evidence for Belgian Tarots from Belgium.
There is missing evidence for early Tarot de Marseille decks, too. There's lot of missing evidence for circumstances which are lost now, but once had been reality.

There were more of "missing evidence", when we once had started our research.

If other can speculate about the origin of the Marseille Tarot from 1500 and even earlier, from the Cathars and even the Sumerians, why should it be impossible to think about an origin of the Belgian Tarot to a a little bit earlier time than Vievil c. 1650?
French persons with some public respect note, that Tarot came from "Germany". It's plausibe, that this is correct for that, what is nowadays Germany, but what about the relevant contemporary Germany, as it once had been?

There's more to say, but I take a pause.











.
User avatar
Huck
member
 

Next

Return to The Researcher's Study


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 5 guests

cron