Re: Game of Triumphs in Rome, 1460s

#21
Huck wrote: What does the number of the registers say? Are these an indication of time?
YES, they are ...

Image


So we have together
Rome, Dogana da terra 1474-1481
---------------

June 1474 - May 1475 ... much cause of Jubilee year (?)
reg 52, fols 8r, 10r, 21r, 23v, 47v, 62v, 68v, 70v, 73v, 122v, 123v,

June 1475 - May 1476
reg 53, fol 24v

missing year (?)

June 1477 - May 1478
reg 54, fol 121v

June 1478 - May 1481... 3 years together ... less trade cause of war with Florence since 1478 (?)
reg 55, fols 36r, 56r, 377r
************************

The expectations in the Jubilee year 1475 were high, likely it was considered to become better and greater than the Jubilee year 1450. But this wasn't fulfilled. The plague arrived early. Bad business in Rome.

************************

It's difficult to estimate the value of the "etc". Is it an "etc" as "I'm drowned in all these playing cards" or is it an "etc" like "I've careful researched for all these Trionfi, but I can't be sure, that I overlooked something"?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Game of Triumphs in Rome, 1460s

#24
hi Girolamo,

nice to meet you.

Please note also ...

3 new articles of Franco Pratesi
************************
This you know already ..
1.
http://trionfi.com/triunfi-playing-cards-rome
1453 Arrival of Triumphs in Rome
-------------------------------
.... about a new document in the year 1453, referring to an import of 8 Triunfi decks to Rome (likely from Florence)

2.
http://trionfi.com/playing-cards-florence-1840
1840 Playing Card Production in Florence
---------------------------------------
... Playing card documents of Florence 1840.
Only 1% of all sold decks are Minchiate decks

3.
http://trionfi.com/rosenwald-tarocchi-sheet
Rosenwald's Fourth Sheet
------------------------
.. a new interpretation of the Rosenwald Tarocchi (Kaplan I, p. 130/131)
Image

It's suggested, that this had been an early Minchiate sheet

... with some further works of Franco Pratesi in near future (soon).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Game of Triumphs in Rome, 1460s

#26
I have quickly checked Pratesi's article. As usual, Mr. Pratesi is brilliant, competent and deep. Congratulations to trionfi.com for the auguste writer we are so much grateful to. Minchiate ? well, it's off topics, but my main present curiosity is to solve the misterious Germini-Minchiate puzzle. I am not sure that the XV century Minchiate were played with a tarot pack. I am not sure that the Germini pack was invented before 1520. I guess that XV century Minchiate was a game played with the common pack and that name (and possibly some playing details) was later given to a XVII century variation of the Germini game.

Re: Game of Triumphs in Rome, 1460s

#27
GirolamoZorli wrote:I have quickly checked Pratesi's article. As usual, Mr. Pratesi is brilliant, competent and deep. Congratulations to trionfi.com for the auguste writer we are so much grateful to. Minchiate ? well, it's off topics, but my main present curiosity is to solve the misterious Germini-Minchiate puzzle. I am not sure that the XV century Minchiate were played with a tarot pack. I am not sure that the Germini pack was invented before 1520. I guess that XV century Minchiate was a game played with the common pack and that name (and possibly some playing details) was later given to a XVII century variation of the Germini game.
hi Girolamo ...

we have the documents of 1466 (a letter from Luigi Pulci to Lorenzo de Medici), 1470/71 (a juristic case against blasphemy) and an Florentine allowance of 1477 for the existence of a card game Minchiate (all without information, how much cards were used). We have a recent document with Sminchiate detected by Andrea Vitali c. 1510 (Farsa Satyra Morale, also without structural inormation).
http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=255&lng=ITA and http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=255&lng=ENG

Further we have a lot book of Lorenzo Spirito (possibly 1473, sure 1482), which uses a 20-20-20-20-scheme. The elements have a slight similarity to Minchiate, the structure is clearer "similar". Likely Spirito imitated a German lot book, which already existed at least 1450 (but likely is older and it might be much older), which used a 22-22-22-22-scheme. In the case, it is true, that Lorenzo Spirit really imitated this version, we would have the curious question, why Lorenzo Spirito reduced the 22-22-22-22 system to a 20-20-20-20 form. If the Minchiate already existed and had a stronger part of the market, Spirito's choice would be natural.
Well, we have the case, that the word Minchiate appear by far not so often as Trionfi in documents ... but it might be, that outside of Florence these cards were simply addressed also as "Trionfi" cards.

I summarized yesterday, what all happened around a specific critical time (in another context, but it might serve also here):
Pulci wrote the first parts of the Morgante for the Medici, when he likely was engaged to help occasionally in the education of the Medici boys (1460 - 1463), likely mostly, when the family spend their days in the villa Caffaggiolo (Morgante lived in short distance to it in the Mugello). This Morgante actually is "youth literature". Pulci had about 15 chapters in 1463, when Lorenzo reached his 15th year. About this time (so my suspicion) he got a Trionfi deck with 16 trumps, the socalled Charles VI. This had a Fool, but not a Magician. And the Morgante had till chapter 15 also only Morgante, and Margutte wasn't invented. In a later Tarocchi deck in Ferrara (Este deck, Beinecke library) we have a Fool AND a Magician, and both are painted as giants.

Pulci's Morgante reached 23 chapters at the begin of the 1470s, just about the time, when Lorenzo had become 23. Margutte was then part of the story.
Around 1474/75 the relationship Pulci and Lorenzo got troubles. In April 1478 the assassination attempt on the Medici was staged. Lorenzo's brother died, but Lorenzo survived, then 29 years and afew mnths old.
Pulci's and Lorenzo's relationship was repaired about 1479 and Pulci offered a new "finished" version of 28 chapters of the Morgante. It seems, that Lorenzo didn't wish to see a 29th chapter or any more chapter. It seems to express, that "youth was finished".
The Morgante went into printed production at the begin of the 1480's. At around the same time also Boiardo's Orlando text went into its first printed versions.
Pulci died in Padova in his 43rd year, so somehow near to places, where Folengo lived. Lorenzo Medici died April 1492, having reached his 43th year.

Recent researches have made clear, that mass production of Trionfi cards had started (at least) at the beginning of the 1460's, and it seems, they were exported from Florence to Rome.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=743
http://trionfi.com/n/
About Minchiate we know, that it was mentioned in 1466 in a letter from Pulci to Lorenzo. It's already an older suspicion, that Pulci was involved in the invention of the game himself.
Recently a new argument appeared in close relation to the new ideas about Trionfi exports from Florence to Rome. Franco Pratesi suggested, that the Rosenthal Tarocchi had a 4th "unknown" sheet ...

http://trionfi.com/rosenwald-tarocchi-sheet

... and inside the internal discussions of Trionfi.com appeared the argument, that the Minchiate development had at a specific not clear moment (but it seems possible "begin of the 1460's") only 96 cards, not 97, as expressed inside the Rosenthal Tarocchi fragments. It might be, that the Minchiate had a double-figure, in which usual qualities of the Magician and the Fool were united.

Image


A fool, but with a table, which usually belongs to the magician.

Michal J. Hurst some time ago at ...
http://pre-gebelin.blogspot.com/search? ... results=13
... had published some details from "children of the Moon" pictures, which are given to Baccio Baldini and the years c. 1464 and c. 1465 (according Michael). Michael pointed already to a similarity to the Rosenthat fool.

Image


Image


So there are running various points together:
1458: New pope Pius II, who knew about German printing technologies
1459: Congress in Mantova with much German participation (woodcut technology and playing cards production technique ?)
??? around 1460 arrival of woodcut technology in Florence
1460-1463: first parts of Morgante (without Margutte)
1462: attack on Mainz, which kept book printing mysteries hidden
1463: assumed date for Charles VI production without Magician
1463: Sweynheim and Pannartz from Mainz to Subiaco
1463-1468: known mass exports of Triunfi cards from Florence to Rome
1463: second Florentine Trionfi allowance
1463: Borso stops his rather normal Trionfi card productions in Ferrara (as far we see them) - possibly cause mass-production had arrived in the Trionfi card production
1464-65: assumed date of Baldini pictures - Fools with Magician qualities
1465: assumed date for 6 card addition to PMB in Milan
1466: Minchiate letter from Pulci to Lorenzo
????? Rosenthal-Tarocchi as Minchiate with united Fool-Magician and totally 96 cards
....
begin or mid 1470s: Fool and Magician as giants and as two figures in Ferrara (Este cards with Aragon heraldic)
Franco's point is, that 3 sheets of the Rosenthal have 72 cards. Assuming, that this had been part of a deck with 78 cards, would demand, that 6 cards must have been printed additionally ... not very practical. The consideration is, that he printers in the first moment of the game development arranged a game, which was practical in the printing process. Maybe two woodblocks served to produce a deck with 48 cards. 3 woodblocks served for a game with 72 cards, and 4 woodblocks served for Minchiate. A most practical solution.

The general consideration from the side of the 5x14 theory says, that in the early stage of the game development there were decks with 5x14 - structure (as possibly given with the cards - if it were cards - made at 1.1.1441, the 14 Bembo trumps in PMB and the 70 cards in the Ferrarese document of 1457) or decks with 16 trumps and a not clear number of court and number cards (Michelino deck - 16 trumps; Cary-Yale Taocchi - 16 reconstructed trumps; Charles VI - 16 trumps).
Generally (in the 5x14-theory) it's assumed, that early Trionfi card versions knew great creativity and had no standard sequence (hand-painted cards dominated). If cards should be exported on the mass market, then this deck should satisfy also players in other cities, which possibly had other trumps and other sequences. So this deck should have had no numbers on the trumps and enough motifs, so that the expected customers could form their used Trionfi deck just by eliminating a few cards. This would have been a rather practical solution.

The Rosenthal Tarocchi has partly numbers, but the impression is, that the numbers were hand painted and the worker had a few errors. So this piece of paper wasn't used as playing cards.

Well, this is just an idea to explain the situation.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Game of Triumphs in Rome, 1460s

#28
.... a lot book of Lorenzo Spirito (possibly 1473, sure 1482), which uses a 20-20-20-20-scheme. The elements have a slight similarity to Minchiate, the structure is clearer "similar". Likely Spirito imitated a German lot book, which already existed at least 1450 (but likely is older and it might be much older), which used a 22-22-22-22-scheme. In the case, it is true, that Lorenzo Spirit really imitated this version, we would have the curious question, why Lorenzo Spirito reduced the 22-22-22-22 system to a 20-20-20-20 form. If the Minchiate already existed and had a stronger part of the market, Spirito's choice would be natural.
Well, we have the case, that the word Minchiate appear by far not so often as Trionfi in documents ... but it might be, that outside of Florence these cards were simply addressed also as "Trionfi" cards.......[/quote]

Thanks for your prompt and exhaustive reply. I wasn't aware of the Lorenzo Spirito's book. Interesting. Dating back to 1450 ? fantastic. As you know, in Italy at that time chalcografy was rare and books were printed out of expensive woodcarving plates, so they usually printed popular subjects, big hits like Bibles, Decamerons, Dante's Commedia and similars. I will try to get it to see if I can understand the "20-20-20-20 scheme". I guess it is related to the deck. The earliest reference to Germini I am aware of is in 1543 Pietro Aretino's "Le Carte Parlanti". In that text, Pietro talks a good deal about Germini, explaining their trionfi together with the classical Tarot trumps. Listing a series of other games, he cites also Minchiate, stating that the listed games are a "fagiolata", a bean soup. It is unlikely that Minchiate could be the same game as Germini.
On the other hand, Francesco Berni in 1528 in the "Commento sopra il Capitolo della Primiera" cites Minchiate together with Trionfi and Tarocchi. So, the puzzle about what the hell were the misterious XV century Minchiate is on and I am very curious about it. Your information will help. Thanks !

Re: Game of Triumphs in Rome, 1460s

#29
Ah, important, I forgot. I sense a trap. The name of the game. In XVI century we have, from Aretino on, several documents citing Germini. Was the Rosenthal sheet a 96 card Germini pack ? was it called by us Minchiate pack just because we usually take for granted that Minchiate and Germini are the same thing ? in fact, from the middle XVII century on, they were the same thing. Aretino and Cardano (De ludo Aleae, about 1530) do not seem to agree. Even John Florio, in his World of Wordes (1599 or so), says : Germini, a tarot game. Minchiate, a card game.
Interesting. :-s

Re: Game of Triumphs in Rome, 1460s

#30
GirolamoZorli wrote:.... a lot book of Lorenzo Spirito (possibly 1473, sure 1482), which uses a 20-20-20-20-scheme. The elements have a slight similarity to Minchiate, the structure is clearer "similar". Likely Spirito imitated a German lot book, which already existed at least 1450 (but likely is older and it might be much older), which used a 22-22-22-22-scheme. In the case, it is true, that Lorenzo Spirit really imitated this version, we would have the curious question, why Lorenzo Spirito reduced the 22-22-22-22 system to a 20-20-20-20 form. If the Minchiate already existed and had a stronger part of the market, Spirito's choice would be natural.
Well, we have the case, that the word Minchiate appear by far not so often as Trionfi in documents ... but it might be, that outside of Florence these cards were simply addressed also as "Trionfi" cards.......

Thanks for your prompt and exhaustive reply. I wasn't aware of the Lorenzo Spirito's book. Interesting. Dating back to 1450 ? fantastic. As you know, in Italy at that time chalcografy was rare and books were printed out of expensive woodcarving plates, so they usually printed popular subjects, big hits like Bibles, Decamerons, Dante's Commedia and similars. I will try to get it to see if I can understand the "20-20-20-20 scheme". I guess it is related to the deck. The earliest reference to Germini I am aware of is in 1543 Pietro Aretino's "Le Carte Parlanti". In that text, Pietro talks a good deal about Germini, explaining their trionfi together with the classical Tarot trumps. Listing a series of other games, he cites also Minchiate, stating that the listed games are a "fagiolata", a bean soup. It is unlikely that Minchiate could be the same game as Germini.
On the other hand, Francesco Berni in 1528 in the "Commento sopra il Capitolo della Primiera" cites Minchiate together with Trionfi and Tarocchi. So, the puzzle about what the hell were the misterious XV century Minchiate is on and I am very curious about it. Your information will help. Thanks !
You have not go far ... we have a lot of the material here, inclusive links, where you get material. Maybe you find better sources, but it's anyway good for a start.

Lorenzo Spirito
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=442&hilit=lorenzo+spirito
about 50 contributions ... much to read ... .-); with a PDF-file for download
(it's easier to handle, if you place it on your own computer)
http://www.ulm.de/sixcms/media.php/29/L ... a_1482.pdf
Version of 1482 ... there had been many other later versions with differences

The German lot book
So far I detected 5 versions, from which one is easily available (a print of 1520). This seems to be rather near to the 2 handwritten "originals", one known (to me) by a German description (Bollstatter, 1450), and another fragmented copy, said to have been earlier.
Further an early 16th century version, which clearly uses the system, but variates specific parts. Then there is the famous "Splendor Solis", which took a few elements from it.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&hilit=pope+donkey
About 50 posts ... This is really a jungle, but it's very interesting to attempt to analyze it. It's system contains a 13-months-astrology, which had been in use between c. 500 BC - c. 70 in Persia and partly in Greece. A similar calendar is still used by Jews, which means, it lived all the time.
The text is German. Anyway, the text isn't very important. The interesting part is the connected system and the very interesting question, how old this system really is. The necessary information is given in the forum text and an online edition of the 1520 version is here ...
http://dfg-viewer.de/show/?set[mets]=ht ... 8_mets.xml

But I would start with Lorenzo Spirito, cause that's easier to understand.

Very interesting - as a lot book - is Fanti's version. It's also here. But I would start with Lorenzo Spirito.

********

Franco said recently, that he knows a Germini note of 1529.
About the Minchiate in 15th century this might helpful ...
http://trionfi.com/0/p/09
Somewhere I've seen the letter from Pulci to Lorenzo, but for the moment I've lost the link.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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