Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#82
I'd say you're pretty persistent too, sir. :)
But I'm still a little lost as to how all these points fit together from your perspective. Are you saying the Tarot is originally French, and actually pre-dates the Italian decks. Not to be 'persistant', but I really want to understand you here.

I'm actually on the Gemini-Cancer cusp, which is the Cusp of Triplets! :)) :) :D
When a clock is hungry, it goes back four seconds.

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#83
EUGIM wrote:Yes as the topic said Robert...

* So have you an Italian example ???

-Because it s seems accepted as if it has has an Italian iconography origin.

So the prove to it is yours ...
No, it's not. It's your issue Eugim. If you want to prove that it is of French origin by using the iconography, you need to show images that can only be found in France that can't be found in Italy. As far as I can see right now, we have two interesting images... the winged Temperance, which we have shown in Italy before tarot, but we have yet to see in France outside of tarot. And we have the robed figure from the Tarot de Marseille I which Ross shows a pretty good cognate for in France and we have not seen yet in Italy.

So.. as far as I know... all the rest of the images discussed so far can be found in both. If you want to keep looking for images to build your case.. do so. But you'll need to show ones in France that match the Tarot de Marseille then I would be willing to spend time looking in Italy. It is not up to me to do your research for you.

Ross thinks the Tarot de Marseille Devil is a good one to work with. I think I can probably find a devil much like yours with the face on belly, bat wings, and claws if you want me to look for one in Italy... but I think you'll need to find one that matches the Tarot de Marseille somewhat better than the one shown before we can say that the Tarot de Marseille devil is "from France".

Cancer-Leo cusp here! Which is the cusp of..um.. introverted extroverts?
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#84
Both looks like "scared" !!!

-About WHOM ???

* Please...

1-I never said that Tarot de Marseille is prior. to Italian iconography,that it is ignorance.
2-I said that Tarot de Marseille has iconographic origin at Medieval times at FRANCE.
3-I ve never done dirty,ironic rugby tackle against you R ...

-For example read about Medieval Bestiary as Kwaw surely told you about a " little" or about Medieval symbolism regarding colours.

Till the next Mell ...
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#86
"Renaissance"

* And I posted earlier an image of the Devil from a medieval manuscript.
LE DIABLE-gotico.jpg
Also you have a Gryphon as it can see at the top of X card. : http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast151.htm

So not an sphinx there...
GRyPHON.jpg
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-All the Medieval Bestiaries came from the text Physiologus,and the images of those bestiaries inspired the sculptures of the Medieval Cathedrals,Curchs and Abbeys of France.

Physiologus : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiologus
The Universe is like a Mamushka.
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Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#87
Eugim writes that the
Tarot de Marseille has iconographic origin at Medieval times at FRANCE
That is quite a different statement (at least in one way or reading such) to saying anything about the development of tarot, but rather about how the Tarot de Marseille's iconography has French Mediæval cognates.

On the whole, I agree that many images have similar form found on Mediæval French structures, in both books and on religious houses as petroglyphs.

...but... that to me more likely shows that as tarot moved from the Piedmont and North Italian area across France and northwards, its imagery was influenced by local imagery and the understanding (and also its lack thereof) of its local artisans.

So I would see that as evidence that the earliest tarot arose as a deck in approximately 15th century northern Italy (which was to be re-conquered by France around 1500 in any case), and in its (ie, tarot's) travels and re-productions, shifts occurred that reflected local sensibilities, including influences from the ever so prominent petroglyphs gracing every town square.
Image
&
Image
association.tarotstudies.org

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#88
I am agree with you JMD,and that is why I said that France jumped Renaissance art.
As you posted many examples in the past here and there,the case of the Gryphon is elocuent as seen at Cathedrals.

http://images.google.es/imgres?imgurl=h ... X%26um%3D1

Frenchmen engravers took the italians images of Tarot and gave them theirs art,theirs different slant.

* It is known the Gryphon love for dig up gold treasures and hoard them in its nest.
May be is gold what this Gryphon has in the bag its holds as we can see at the X card ?
May be it distribute the gold to the figures at the wheel in each turn according to they worth,as a prize well gained ?

-Here is a better resolution of an image earlier posted including the text:

Au revoir...
The Universe is like a Mamushka.
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Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#89
The name Gryphon in french it s menas robinet,so a faucet.
But in terms of architecture it is called in french " gargouille " and in english gargoyle,because it was referring lately to the Gryphons as water outlet at the Churchs.
So after the Gryphons lost its initial meaning as Guardian of the Divine.

* // In Greek (may be copied from Persia from its comes) was called the Guardian of Dionosio.
And nothing least my dear friends ! //

That is was is also understand as throat...

* And that is why friendly the Manchester fans called Carlos Tevez as a Gargoyle...

-Reasons they have many !

-Guardian of the Divine :
GRIFO-AMIGO.jpg
GRIFO-AMIGO.jpg (13.44 KiB) Viewed 4875 times
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

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