Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#71
jmd wrote:But of course, there is no contradiction between Christ and Adam... as Christ is described as the second Adam.

So the loin cloth as leaves indicates the perfect human being in Christ, and the aureole, mantle and four evangelists confirms the representation as Christ.
I thought of this too, but I came up with a theological problem. The Second Adam restores Man to his primal glory and innocence. The First Adam covered himself with the proverbial "fig leaf" out of shame as a result of the Fall. Therefore, the Second Adam, having restored Man to his prelapsarian condition, should not feel shame, and thus has no need for the covering.

I think it is legitimate to question the choice of a leafy loincloth in this instance, because it appears to be unique to these Tarots, as far as I can find in a few hours of googling images. Of course that is only a drop in the ocean of possible images, and I'll keep looking for non-Tarot cognates.

But Viéville's appears to be nude, and the Castello Sforzesco world, while difficult to make out because of damage, does seem to show the irregular presence of leaves. I wonder what would make someone choose the leafy garment rather than a simple loincloth like in the St. Jacques carving, but at least if the Sforzesco card does show it, then it at least helps explain why Noblet and Dodal also have it - they were copying from a long tradition.
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Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#72
I agree that there appears to be (at this time) difficulty in finding cognates (apart from the S.Castle card, which to my eyes shows the same symbolic covering rather clearly, even if partially damaged).

There is both a problem and not a problem with this (which does not mean that it's not something that we need to seek further images in evidence as to its origins).

If it is indeed Christ as Second Adam, then the easiest and most amenable manner to render this evident is by the inclusion of leaves girdling him. Neither the cape nor the leaves are necessary, except in this symbolic sense. The rest of the image shows him to be not Adam, but the second Adam as Christ, due to in part the aureole and, more importantly, the four evangelists.

I too have in the past googled for images and do not recall locating some... though, as for the Papesse, it's only a matter of time before such is found, in my view.
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Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#73
jmd wrote:The rest of the image shows him to be not Adam, but the second Adam as Christ, due to in part the aureole and, more importantly, the four evangelists.
There is no aureole. Only the Vieville has a halo, and in this case it does not have the girdle of leafs. Possibly someone saw in the unfamiliar image of the figure with leafs what they expected, and transformed it into something more familiar by removing the leafs and adding the halo, thus transforming the unfamiliar into something more familiar and in line with their expectations.

The four evangelists are not used exclusively of Christ; for example, just as they are at the four corners of the 'world' card in the Tarot de Marseille, in highest position, so they are at the four corners of the concluding card of one of the Mantegna series ('S' i think, possibly 'E' can't recall off hand) surrounding the circles of a Ptolomaic 'cosmos/munda'.
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
jmd wrote:But of course, there is no contradiction between Christ and Adam... as Christ is described as the second Adam.

So the loin cloth as leaves indicates the perfect human being in Christ, and the aureole, mantle and four evangelists confirms the representation as Christ.
I thought of this too, but I came up with a theological problem. The Second Adam restores Man to his primal glory and innocence. The First Adam covered himself with the proverbial "fig leaf" out of shame as a result of the Fall. Therefore, the Second Adam, having restored Man to his prelapsarian condition, should not feel shame, and thus has no need for the covering.
I thought of this too, and troubled a little by the theological problem; perhaps theology took second place to considerations as to how most easily illustrate relationship between Christ as second Adam other than through Adam's most recognisable emblem, a loin-cloth of leafs; though Christ as second Adam is more commonly suggested through Christ holding an apple - otherwise a symbol of the fall and sin that brought death, in the hands of Christ as second Adam brings life - perhaps too the girdle of leafs that is a symbol of Adam's shame is perhaps represents rather the 'modesty' of the lamb when/if on Christ as second Adam (just guessing here - nothing to back it up).
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#76
That's correct - there are numerous uses of the mandorla around other representations, such as Mani, the World Sophia, etc.

It's more the overall context, and its sequence following the Judgement imagery, that makes the whole a rather coherent representation of the card as Christ.

Of course, this does not mean that in later decks, Christ is not altered to represent something entirely different.
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Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#78
EUGIM wrote:Which Italian iconography precedent,strictly talking,has this card ?
paris_14.jpg
Do you have one from France to show us?

PS.. I'm not even sure why it matters. I thought we were talking about the Tarot de Marseille?
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#79
EUGIM wrote:Which Italian iconography precedent,strictly talking,has this card ?
paris_14.jpg

EUGIM. What is your point? You seem to be arguing that since research has proven that tarot was in fact a game with trumps representing fairly common allegorical themes and not a 'secret doctrine', and that most of this research has focused on the earliest 'Italian Period', therefore all the secret goodies must have been added later by the French. Is that what you are saying??? :-\

If you think you have 'de-coded' some secret stuff, just tell us what it is, and stop beating around the bush.
When a clock is hungry, it goes back four seconds.

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#80
First hello RAH,son not RA,so no not Mellanchollic.

1- I never suggested any subtle meaning sustained on any secret doctrine.
I am not Bob O Neill who had not enough pants to sustain his... ( I don t want to be banned again Mel,pleae,ok ? )
2-I got you Mel,you know I sustain a Medieval-Romanesque-early Gothic about Tarot de Marseille...
Just read Umberto Eco book " Art and beauty at the Aesthetic Medieval "
There you can see the supposed antinomia between image and symbolism,all holy "blessed" by the Church I did baptize.
3-Any bush to "get into" Mel...
4-Is not a Gryphon above the X card ?
5-Is not this kind of DIABLE so not a a Diavolo depicting the XV card ?
You talked earlier or prior about " clumsy " engrave...

* Please...



-I like to discuss with,because you have guts,and as a Moon child born you are very persistent !

Eugim
The Universe is like a Mamushka.
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