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Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

Posted: 02 May 2009, 04:02
by EUGIM
I don t think that is a matter of perspective.
Some cards give us the impression to be two dimensional,but for example the X card shows a clear three dimensional perspective,so the wheels as shown at VII I think was deliberate.

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

Posted: 10 May 2009, 19:30
by robert
Ross's discovery of a Tarot de Marseille I World style figure is a great find. As far as I know, this is the first one to show up, and it's from France! So, point to the French unless we can find another somewhere else:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=182

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

Posted: 10 May 2009, 19:36
by SteveM
robert wrote:Ross's discovery of a Tarot de Marseille I World style figure is a great find. As far as I know, this is the first one to show up, and it's from France! So, point to the French unless we can find another somewhere else:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=182
18th century France? It looks like the figure of St. John on coins such as florins, can't point to Florence though, as their florins were used all over europe...

I doubt it was Jesus, why should a universal, common and well known figure across Christendom become something obscure? More likely where the figure looks something like christ someone has turned something they misunderstood and obscure into the more familiar...

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

Posted: 10 May 2009, 19:41
by robert
SteveM wrote:
robert wrote:Ross's discovery of a Tarot de Marseille I World style figure is a great find. As far as I know, this is the first one to show up, and it's from France! So, point to the French unless we can find another somewhere else:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=182
18th century France? It looks like the figure of St. John of florins, can't point to Florence though, as their florins were used all over europe...

I doubt it was Jesus, why should a universal, common and well known figure across Christendom become something obscure? More likely where the figure looks something like christ someone has turned something they misunderstood and obscure into the more familiar...
Maybe. Looks like a pretty good match to me.. Christ or not.

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

Posted: 10 May 2009, 19:52
by SteveM
robert wrote:Maybe. Looks like a pretty good match to me.. Christ or not.
Vieville is closest, as for other two, show me a Christ in a loin cloth of leafs...

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

Posted: 10 May 2009, 19:54
by robert
SteveM wrote:
robert wrote:Maybe. Looks like a pretty good match to me.. Christ or not.
Vieville is closest, as for other two, show me a Christ in a loin cloth of leafs...
Well, as I said, I've not found a cognate before... so I'll go ahead and assume that this IS Christ, surrounded by the four evangelists.. and there you go.

I will keep looking though. :)

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

Posted: 10 May 2009, 19:57
by SteveM
robert wrote:
SteveM wrote:
robert wrote:Maybe. Looks like a pretty good match to me.. Christ or not.
Vieville is closest, as for other two, show me a Christ in a loin cloth of leafs...
Well, as I said, I've not found a cognate before... so I'll go ahead and assume that this IS Christ, surrounded by the four evangelists.. and there you go.

I will keep looking though. :)
Loin cloth of leafs is a symbol of Adam / Eve - in this position possibly redeemed, paradise restored.

Perhaps Christ as second Adam?? Tarocchi as tree of life, the 77 generations from fallen man to redeemed Man (56/21).

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

Posted: 10 May 2009, 20:00
by robert
Well, whoever it is, (and hopefully Ross will be able to get some more information on it), I still think it is a very good cognate to the Tarot de Marseille I World card, and it is from France, which was the reason I posted it here in the first place.

I'll go with Christ until someone shows me a better cognate to the Tarot de Marseille I World card.

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

Posted: 10 May 2009, 20:37
by SteveM
robert wrote: I'll go with Christ until someone shows me a better cognate to the Tarot de Marseille I World card.
Several years ago I post a picture of Fortuna from Witherspoons Emblem book on TarotL. Huck stated it was not Fortuna but Occassio, that Witherspoon had read the image wrong. I explained to Huck that no, Witherspoon had not read it wrong, as in the same book there is in fact an image of Occassio - the two in fact are very similar, the identifying differences are in the emblems they carry, Fortuna holds a crescent moon, Occassio a razor. Huck obviously didn't agree with me, as he posted the image as 'occassio' on his site, still claiming Witherspoon had it wrong.

Here I agree on the similarity, and context would strongly support the argument too, in the case of the vieville the argument is the stronger for me; in the other two instances there is the loin cloths of leafs, usually an emblem of Adam/Eve. Show me an image of Christ with a loin cloth of leafs then I will be persuaded, otherwise belief what you wish to believe, and unlike some, I will not ridicule you for what you believe, but respectfully disagree.

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

Posted: 11 May 2009, 10:25
by jmd
But of course, there is no contradiction between Christ and Adam... as Christ is described as the second Adam.

So the loin cloth as leaves indicates the perfect human being in Christ, and the aureole, mantle and four evangelists confirms the representation as Christ.