Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#41
I'm sorry Eugim, but I disagree.

You kept pushing for a sample of an image of Temperance with wings... I gave it to you, and it is Italian, and from around the same time as Tarot's invention. Perhaps we can find more than this (and I hope we do!) but I'd say this is a pretty strong argument that the iconography of Temperance with wings is not necessarily "French", but is... at least so far... known in Italy from the early 1400s. Jean-Michel says that he has images of it as well, so I'm expecting to see some French versions, but like it or not, the iconography was known in Italy in the early 15th Century.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Are we seeking to clarify or obscure?

#42
Hullo Robert.

But what about the other symbols on that casket?
Isn't the whole point of this thread to discredit any imagery that lies outside of an Italian "trump cycle" as irrelevant?
What sense does it make to follow the threads of mythology and symbolic imagery through history until they come together on tarot cards, when it is so easy to dismiss anything that does not present all 22 trumps as "outside the context"?

This thread broke my back.
I am not a cannibal.

Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#43
OnePotato wrote:Hullo Robert.

But what about the other symbols on that casket?
Isn't the whole point of this thread to discredit any imagery that lies outside of an Italian "trump cycle" as irrelevant?
What sense does it make to follow the threads of mythology and symbolic imagery through history until they come together on tarot cards, when it is so easy to dismiss anything that does not present all 22 trumps as "outside the context"?

This thread broke my back.
My Fault.

I apologise for taking the subject off topic and have asked James to merge the discussion with this thread on the origin of the Tarot de Marseille, (which seems a more appropriate spot, as OnePotato has indicated), than the original thread here.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#44
Fantastic image, Robert.

I'm honestly not sure where I've placed the images I had in mind, but I did find a lone one! (It may be that the others are in books somewhere - or amongst the numerous images that are in the 'to be sorted', 'mixed', 'miscellaneous' and 'other' folders on my computer where I found this one :ar! - rather than actually where they should be!)

Anyway, one of the details I also particularly like in the image presented earlier is that she is aureoled with a stellar pattern (denoting an allegory or virtue).

From Venice, by Giovanni Bellini (whose brother-in-law was Andrea Mantegna, by the way), is this amazing representation of Temperance - certainly far more removed than the ones I had in mind!

Image
Image
&
Image
association.tarotstudies.org

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#45
Michael Hurst sent me a few winged-Temperances (along with the other virtues) that he found online from Florence. My hotmail search function isn't working, but I'll post them as soon as I find them.

My understanding of Michael's idea is that the wings on Temperance in the Tarot de Marseille, coming after Death, suggest that this "virtue-angel" has the role of psychopomp, or perhaps guardian angel.

This doesn't help with the source of the "original" idea of Temperance with wings, and the trump lists of the C orderings are no help for saying whether the Temperance or Fama in Italy ever had wings.
Image

Re: Tarot de Marseille - Italian or French origin?

#46
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:Michael Hurst sent me a few winged-Temperances (along with the other virtues) that he found online from Florence. My hotmail search function isn't working, but I'll post them as soon as I find them.

My understanding of Michael's idea is that the wings on Temperance in the Tarot de Marseille, coming after Death, suggest that this "virtue-angel" has the role of psychopomp, or perhaps guardian angel.

This doesn't help with the source of the "original" idea of Temperance with wings, and the trump lists of the C orderings are no help for saying whether the Temperance or Fama in Italy ever had wings.
Hi Ross,

As a note, the casket has all seven virtues, all with wings. I'll post photos of the set later (back to the Victorian Poor Law!)
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Winged Temperance

#47
Hi, Robert,

This is a great near-twin for the box Marco posted about last year... with excellent pictures.

Winged Temperance - XV Century
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=107183

He posted the image here.

Temperance01.jpg
http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Image:Temperance01.jpg

His is in Milan, yours in in Oxford, but both are from the Embriachi workshop, 15th century.

Regarding my own view of winged virtues, as usual, it depends on the context. In some works, all the theological virtues are winged and the classical virtues are not. The significance of that should be obvious but, if not, it can be found in Aquinas (and elsewhere). The theological virtues have God as their object and are infused from God rather than being merely practiced habit. The wings suggest that iconographically.

In some works, all the classical virtues are winged, as in the Embriachi boxes. This is little more than an artistic preference, although it can certainly be defended. In some works, however, like the Tarot trumps in Tarot de Marseille, only the highest-ranking virtue is winged. Like Ross, this is an old discussion for me and I'll have to look up some notes to provide examples. As I recall, Giotto provides one such example.

As part of that old discussion, the earliest Italian (ancient Roman) example of winged Temperance is Nike. Seriously. One of her conventional depictions was as wine-bearer to victors, in which capacity she carried one or two vessels. The krater was used specifically to mix water with wine -- to temper it -- before drinking. This is not only a Pagan tradition, not only the literal fact underlying the metaphorical symbolism of Temperance, but also the same practice used in the Eucharist where water is mixed with wine for reasons of Christian symbolism. (The water and blood which poured from Christ's side, symbolizing his human and divine nature, etc.)

The significance of this for Tarot is not merely the existence of an ancient Pagan example, but the appropriateness of Nike triumphing over Death. This too was an ancient topos, but an ancient Christian one. Nike was used as a Christian psychopomp in funerary art, based on a passage from St. Paul: In 1 Corinthians he quotes Isaiah: "Death has been swallowed up in victory", and that was a well-known motif. Of course, the winged figure naturally suggests a psychopomp, by analogy with both Mercury and angels, as well as Nike -- Victory.

So the analogy between Tarot de Marseille's Temperance and Nike resonates in terms of the literal meaning, mixing water with wine, and also in terms of the triumph over Death. That latter connection derives from the generic psychopomp motif, the specific Nike "Death has been swallowed up" motif, and the specific fact that the sacraments are the orthodox Christian means by which triumph over Death is achieved.

Well, that's the short version, anyway.

JMD -- cool picture! Was it part of a pair, or group of images? As Edgar Wind noted, “of the many historical disfigurations to which Renaissance art has been subjected, one of the saddest is that pictures which were conceived in a cyclical spirit have come down to us as solitary paintings.”

Best regards,
Michael
We are either dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, or we are just dwarfs.

Winged Temperance

#48
Hi, Robert,

Okay... among the three Moral Virtues usually depicted in Tarot, Tarot de Marseille's Temperance is alone in being winged. It is this context that makes her wings so interesting, along with the context that only in Tarot de Marseille does Temperance 1) have wings and 2) triumph over Death. These things are clearly connected -- context counts.

What other works have one virtue singled out in this manner?

The great Pisano doors have a striking parallel with the Tarot de Marseille series. Only one of the eight virtues has wings while the others do not. Moreover, the winged virtue is the one which most strongly alludes to life after death, Spes. The Theological Virtue of Hope is hope of resurrection, spes altera vitae.

Eight Haloed Virtues Seated, Florence Baptistry, early 14th century
http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/ital ... doors.html

Giotto's Spes also has wings... alone in the series.
http://www.wga.hu/html/g/giotto/padova/ ... 6hope.html

Also from Florence, this one is in marble by Michelozzo di Bartolomeo, 1435.
http://www.wga.hu/html/m/micheloz/3john_23.html

So, there is certainly precedent (these all pre-date Tarot) for having one virtue singled out with wings.

Best regards,
Michael
We are either dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants, or we are just dwarfs.

Re: Winged Temperance

#50
mjhurst wrote:Hi, Robert,

Okay... among the three Moral Virtues usually depicted in Tarot, Tarot de Marseille's Temperance is alone in being winged. It is this context that makes her wings so interesting, along with the context that only in Tarot de Marseille does Temperance 1) have wings and 2) triumph over Death. These things are clearly connected -- context counts.
Michael,

I find your take on the three moral virtues to be he most useful model, yet there is something I would like to ask, and it has precisely to do with the fact that in the Tarot de Marseille Temperance is the only winged virtue. (I apologize if this feels off-topic). In the Tarot de Marseille Justice and Strength ‘pose’ in front of us almost as role-models for a certain moral assets within man while Temperance as a psychopompos feels more as an external aid for the soul. Do you see the three of them playing the same role? Does a winged Temperance suggest the soul shall find moderation after death, or does it suggest that the soul should practice moderation in the afterlife? Could you share your thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance,

EE
What’s honeymoon salad? Lettuce alone
Don’t look now, mayonnaise is dressing!

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