Re: Are we seeking to clarify or obscure?

#31
EUGIM wrote:Well talking about the revolution ah ?
See the XV of Vieville...
What a hell owe to the italians ???
I'm not so sure about the Vieville Devil, but I would say that several of the Vieville cards can be traced either directly or indirectly to the Italian decks! Clearly, there is some connection to Bologna or Florence.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Are we seeking to clarify or obscure?

#33
There very likely are local image variations that in part result from the location of the artist/woodcutter, and in part the models on which they based their earlier deck.

For example, the Devil of the Besançon, Schaffhouse and other 'Swiss' decks bear particular imagery that seems distinct to the Devil of the decks that seem to have their place of manufacture in Paris, Lyon, Avignon and Marseille, which are again different to the those that seem to be more prevalent in the Italian area.

It should nonetheless also be remembered that what we now call 'Italy' did not exist as a nation in the 18th century or before, and that the connections between, for example, Milan and Paris were far closer than they are now (Milan was under French rule around the 16th century) and, conversely, Avignon and Rome had closer connections than they now do (Avignon was Papal territory).

So to even call a deck 'French' or 'Italian' can add to the confusion if these aspects are not simultaneously kept in mind.

Then there is also the family connections between various Papal families, Sforza families, and the French Crown.

Nonetheless, I think it is evident that some decks have clearer local imagery than other decks (such as the more obvious Visconti-Sforza decks), and that once local variations are introduced, they are likely to be copied more or less 'as is' by other publishers... allowing for minor artistic license in alterations.

With the wings on Temperance, they certainly are 'unexpected'... but I have seen the virtues depicted with wings before... I'll have to try and dig some source and location!
Image
&
Image
association.tarotstudies.org

Re: Are we seeking to clarify or obscure?

#34
Okay Dear JMD...
All pretty things,facts without any discussion,but what about nothing different that we already knew before ?

So I ask again ;
*Which italian precedent element can we see about Temperance card ?
Not italian,okay,Sumerian may be ???
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: Are we seeking to clarify or obscure?

#35
EUGIM wrote:Okay Dear JMD...
All pretty things,facts without any discussion,but what about nothing different that we already knew before ?

So I ask again ;
*Which italian precedent element can we see about Temperance card ?
Not italian,okay,Sumerian may be ???
Will this do?
Image


"Casket with the story of Paris"
Italian (Venice), early 15th century.
Workshop of Baldassare degli Embriachi.
Bone, horn and wood.
Ashmolean Museum, Oxford :D .

:ymbringiton: Bring it on.

;;)
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Are we seeking to clarify or obscure?

#36
:ymbringiton: Bring it on.

;;)

????
*What a hell it s means ?

-Regarding to the image:
Venice,early 15th century..
Do you know Robert a more serious link to the Tarot de Marseille than find an image with an indisputable obvious correlation ?
But Venice ? / early 15 th century ????
I thought your eyes were closer to Milan regarding Tarot de Marseille ...
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: Are we seeking to clarify or obscure?

#37
EUGIM wrote::ymbringiton: Bring it on.

;;)

????
*What a hell it s means ?
It means it's your turn to show me a Temperance with wings from France that's at least as old. (And when you do, it means we have to consider both places as possible origins for Tarot de Marseille imagery.)
EUGIM wrote: Do you know Robert a more serious link to the Tarot de Marseille than find an image with an indisputable obvious correlation ?
HA HA HA! =)) I think my example is pretty damned good.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Are we seeking to clarify or obscure?

#39
Hahaha,no...

I think your example is a Venice image with any correlation with Tarot de Marseille,if it is just prove to me.

* And please don t begin with the smileys because then things turns ahead,under "shadows" okay ?
Just as my videos you denied with reasons of course.


Cheers
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: Are we seeking to clarify or obscure?

#40
Okay did this parade finally end ?

*So then I can again ask you which is the link between a Venice image and Tarot de Marseille iconography regarding Temperance card. ?
-May be we must drive the investigation towards to the Northern East Italy regarding Tarot de Marseille ?
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

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