EUGIM wrote:Thanks Robert for the Noblet Numerals ...
I never saw them / Beautiful !
I haven t them yet till Santa Claus arrive soon...

1-Evidently word is wider in Tarot de Marseille world ...
2-Could be a less possibility that the engravers were somewhat lazy boys ?
3-After all Tarot de Marseille has for me a different art source than italians decks,and philosophical also.

The original idea behind this thread is to look at the evidence for a French or Italian origin for the Tarot de Marseille. I think it's a real riddle, and I love to explore it.

The case for an Italian origin, I would suggest (and hope for correction), includes:
1. There is no evidence that tarot developed in France. All historical evidence points to Italy. The older the Tarot de Marseille pattern is, the more likely it is that it originated in Italy, not France.

2. The Sforza Castle cards were found in Milan, Italy. The World card shows a pattern without the titles (and most likely without the numbers). If the pattern existed in Italy without the titles and numbers, and only existed in France with them, is there any explanation other than that the older pattern is the one without the titles and numbers added; and therefore, Italy had the pattern first?

What is the case for the French origin?

Thanks Robert for your kind observation...
1-I expressed me on the worst way but not far...
2-Tarot de Marseille has an undoubtedly Italian source so who cant deny ?
3-But after frenchmen brought the "creature" to France also (and again ) is undoubtedly that the entirely deck was reworked.
I don t want to enter on an endless circle of examples,but just one example of my position and please don t get a ticket to ride here my bon ami...
4-Why LA PAPESSE is looking toward LE BATELEVR instead of the card sequence ?
5-Blasphemy ? / Reversed card negligence ?
It s not a minor thing I believe ...
Pointed Black or White Robert.
Why LA PAPESSE isn t looking toward the sequence cards ?
Again isn t a Plaza Sesamo question I think...
It s suppose not less how " to go ahead on what common sense" to the cards to come ...

EUGIM wrote:Thanks Robert for your kind observation...
1-I expressed me on the worst way but not far...
2-Tarot de Marseille has an undoubtedly Italian source so who cant deny ?
3-But after frenchmen brought the "creature" to France also (and again ) is undoubtedly that the entirely deck was reworked.

Was it? That's part of the question isn't it? How reworked was it? Can we prove that it was reworked? I believe the titles and numbers were added by the French, but I don't think too much else changed, (although I think some degradation happened to the iconography). I don't believe it was redrawn as something new.

Now, we could look at the Cary Sheet for instance, and say that the Tarot de Marseille looked like that in Italy, but changed to the Tarot de Marseille we know and love today in France... but I don't know of any evidence to support that.

What evidence can you offer of how the Tarot de Marseille changed from Italy to France? What is your supposition based on?

EUGIM wrote: I don t want to enter on an endless circle of examples,but just one example of my position and please don t get a ticket to ride here my bon ami...
4-Why LA PAPESSE is looking toward LE BATELEVR instead of the card sequence ?
5-Blasphemy ? / Reversed card negligence ?
It s not a minor thing I believe ...
Pointed Black or White Robert.
Why LA PAPESSE isn t looking toward the sequence cards ?
Again isn t a Plaza Sesamo question I think...
It s suppose not less how " to go ahead on what common sense" to the cards to come ...

I'm sorry, I don't see how the direction of the Popess has any relevance, but I'd very much liked to be shown why you think it has anything to do with France or Italy for the origin of the Tarot de Marseille.

As far as I can see, the only evidence to suggest a French origin for the Tarot de Marseille is a LONG shot, and that is that I found a iconographic cognate for the Cary Sheet Devil in an early French manuscript.

Is there more? What can we look to to suggest a French origin, or are we all willing to accept an Italian origin for the Tarot de Marseille? If so, what can we agree was changed when it moved from Italy to France?

a: As one example at least.
1-Choose any Moon card of an italian deck
2-See the Cary Sheet depiction of it.
3-Cross with the one of Jacques Vieville or Jean Dodal

b: Details strictly of Tarot de Marseille pattern.
1- LE MAT: The spoon/the dog /his ripped pant
2- I : Showing the four suits on the table.that show just for me that his wand isn t a depiction of a baton nor the "thing" he hold in his right hand is a denier.
3-II / Aside Vieville on all Tarot de Marseille decks the book is opened
4- VI / Crescent Moon on the shoulders as Cavalier de Epee
A pair of horses / Male (A cheek guard as on Vieville and female with a long "hair" crest as Dodal show)
5- VIIII / Hold a lantern instead of an hourglass
6- X / At the top there is an anmal figure instead an angel or a human
For me a Gryphon for others an Sphinx
7- XIII / In many decks the death is half skin "dressed" so alive.
Has victims behind and ahead (Aperpetual work ? )
8- XIIII / An angel pouring water or something else from one vessel to another tempering it
9- XV / An hermaphrodite.Having breasts and penis.Having a face on his belly and eyes on his knees.
A pair (male female)tied to his throne
10-XVI / A fire coming out from the tower toward to the Sun as on Dodal
11- XVII / A woman pouring the liquid into the stream (Of Water Life ? )
12- XVIII / Two dogs a crawfish a Sun eclipse as on Dodal an Cary Sheet (Okay just for me...)
13- XVIIII / A pair again.On some decks male/female
14- XX / A pair outside of the sarcophagus praying / another one inside.
15- XXI / A figure (Christ ? ) inside a mandorla as in the Romanesque Abbeys and Cathedrals

Manservant Note:

The following discussion on the Temperance card as Angel was split from another topic and merged with this thread.

Okay.
So which is the iconographic so not conceptual italian ancestor of Temperance card as an Angel ?

EUGIM wrote:Okay.
So which is the iconographic so not conceptual italian ancestor of Temperance card as an Angel ?

If you think it's important (and it seems many others do as well), it would be helpful if you could come up with sources for it to show the connection to France, something that makes it particularly French. There are lots of unique cards in Tarot, the wings on Temperance are just one of many. Why are the wings particularly French and not Italian or some other nationality? Otherwise, it could just a likely be an Italian invention as anything else.

okay.
Put it on your side walk.
So could you tell to me which is the italian precedent of this card ?
Iconography meant so not conceptual please.don t throw to me you library please Robert against me...

sweet dreams...

EUGIM wrote:okay.
Put it on your side walk.
So could you tell to me which is the italian precedent of this card ?
Iconography meant so not conceptual please.don t throw to me you library please Robert against me...

sweet dreams...

I don't want it on my sidewalk, it's not my issue. Sorry, I'm not the one trying to prove the point really... If you want to prove the Tarot de Marseille is French, please do so! Otherwise, I think that we can only say "maybe".

I think most people agree with you Eugim. Ross brought up that the Devil struck him as particularly French, although as far as I know we still don't have anything to really indicate that it is.

I think we just don't know, and that it is wrong to assume that the cards are French (or Italian!) until we can find some evidence to prove it.

Well talking about the revolution ah ?
See the XV of Vieville...
What a hell owe to the italians ???