Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#61
Apparently there is a whole book on the "Avignon" theory of tarot origins. Franco wrote about it in the note on Petrarch's Triumphi, (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1092&start=20#p17714, from http://www.naibi.net/A/521-PETRAR-Z.pdf ):
... I know an exceptional whole book that sees the very origin of the tarot precisely with Petrarch, when he resided in Avignon (16). In my opinion, this is an amateur contribution that is coupled with scientific in quotes: this seems to me the maximum in our field; I can only repeat what I have already written (17):
The origin of the tarot would be connected with Pope John XXII (1249-1334), who was too old and tired to continue reading books. So different authors undertook to provide books reduced to pure and simple sequences of images. Unless I have misunderstood the text (and I am ready to recognize my limited understanding) the authors explain the birth of the tarot sequence as only an extension of the six triumphs celebrated by Petrarch; Also, they go to further extend the set of triumphal cards so as to include, subsequently, the cards of the four suits. As a final result, we obtain that the tarot sequence had already been born, although [start of p. 17] kept in a rather secret form, before the death of Simone Martini (1344), and Petrarch (1374). As for me, I'm always looking to set back the date of the origin of our triumphs, but this is excessive; we can only comment briefly: "You are too kind, Saint Anthony!"
Perhaps the most daring result of that book is that from the Triumphi would be derived not only the triumphal tarot cards, but the whole pack, including the number and picture cards. It is better to reduce our expectations and limit ourselves to less ambitious considerations.
_________________
16. R. Fusi, R. Pio, Tarocchi un giallo storico: Le carte perdute e ritrovate. Firenze 2001; reprinted in 2004 with the title: Petrarca, Simone Martini e le carte.
17. F. Pratesi, Giochi di carte nella repubblica fiorentina. Ariccia 2016, p. 504.
And while I am at it, since the title of this thread mentions John Shephard, in his book The Tarot Trumps: Cosmos in Miniature (1983) he presented a nice set of correspondences between the cards, 20 of them, and the six Petrarchan triumphs, in both the A and B orders, a kind of spin-off on Moakley of 1956 (whom he does credit). I will post a copy of his table when I get a chance, in a different thread, since I don't want to detract from the Goldschmidt here.

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#62
Mi Mikeh

Yes the thesis of Verame is ambitious. Too ambituous I think.

The synthesis of Jean VERAME's thesis translated in English :
http://www.historyoftarotsandtheirorigin.com/

As Franco notes : The thesis of VERAME is exceptionnal but let's say too daring!
http://lesoriginesdestarotsparjeanverame.com/
Texte écrit par Jean Verame et ajusté par Agnès Barbier ( conservatrice du Musée Français de la Carte à Jouer ) et les illustrations sont encartées par Marion Lamy
Musée Français de la Carte à Jouer
http://www.museecarteajouer.com/
Video on :
https://youtu.be/bcVFja_jawk

The strengh of Verame thesis , for me, comes from the " scientific in quotes" as Franco notes ; they are mainly from :
H.CHOBAUT, Les Maîtres-Cartiers d’Avignon du XVème Siècle à la Révolution, dans Mémoires de l’Académie de Vaucluse, quatrième série, Tome IV , 1955
http://e-archives.vaucluse.fr/ead.html? ... !{"content":["FRAD084_IR0000270_de-54",false,""]}

Of interest here, CHOBAUT's notes :
Reference works

Note 1 - H.CHOBAUT, in Les Maîtres-Cartiers d’Avignon du XVème Siècle à la Révolution, in Mémoires de l’Académie de Vaucluse, Forth series, Volume IV , 1955, precise : «Paper manufacturing in this region dates back to the second half of the 14th century».

Note 2 - H. CHOBAUT , op. cité : « The first known card manufacturer in Avignon… was both haberdasher, painter and card manufacturer. These three trades were related in the 15th century, we note this on many occasions. One must not forget that during this period the haberdashers sold playing cards, and that these were often hand painted… At the end of the 15th century, Avignon’s card manufacturers, along with painters, belonged to the brotherhood of Saint-Luc, more proof of the relationship between these two trades»

Note 3 - H. CHOBAUT , op. cité : « On January 15, 1431, Bernard de Guillermont, paper manufacturer…, tenant of mills in Entraigues and in Sorgues sells to two Italian merchants established in Avignon all of his paper production, among other things playing cards, during the following year »..

Nevertheless, my point was not the Tarot had it's origin in Avignon (Verame's take)
But that the Falconner's Card of the Goldschmidt would eventually refer to Avignon ....(my" thinking aloud")

Quite different.

Franco, about Verame , is talking about a hypothetical Petrachian origin of Tarot in Avignon, I believe.
He is not ansewring an inquiry about the "provencals" possible origins of the Godschmidt remaining cards
- what was my specific take about "la piste avignonnaise" in the Goldschmidt thread.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&start=50#p17942

"Ne pas jeter le bébé avec l'eau de la baignoire" - we say in French...Refering CHOBAUT more than VERAME in clear ...

Illustration

Verame : Avignon origin of Tarot
Refering Petrach stay in the city, for example the Wheel - as you wrote " it could be the representative of Petrarch's Time, instead of the Old Man".


Bougearel : Avignon linked to the Wheelwater of the Falconner's card
Refering the Waterwheel in Avignon : it would be representative of the "moulins pour la fabrication du papier " of Avignon ...

Data offered by Verame based on H.CHOBAUT, dans Les Maîtres-Cartiers d’Avignon du XVème Siècle à la Révolution, dans Mémoires de l’Académie de Vaucluse, quatrième série, Tome IV , 1955
:
VERAME about The falconner's Card :
La plus ancienne carte connue est celle qui fait partie de la série dite « de Goldschmidt », du nom du collectionneur qui possédait neuf cartes de ce jeu, peintes sur parchemin, et qui sont considérées comme étant Provençales. Ce jeu comporte, en plus d’un valet et de son chien (Fig. 7), un cinq de bâtons, un as de coupes et un as de deniers ! C’étaient les enseignes en cours dans le midi à cette époque). Le problème toutefois, pour ceux qui négligent le fait que rien n’était institutionnalisé au XIVème siècle, qui est celui qui a vu naître les cartes à jouer et où il y avait une liberté de création totale (voir les jeux faits main de la Chasse d’Ambras et celui de Stuttgart, et voir aussi le Fou d’un autre Tarot Visconti qui est à Yale University), c’est qu’il est manifeste que le tarot n’a pu être créé en une seule fois, mais que des images y ont été introduites pour rendre le jeu ordinaire plus complexe.

The Water Wheel :

VERAME
Dans les environs d’Avignon, dans les petites villes de Sorgues et Entraigues, on recense dès le XIVème siècle bon nombre de moulins destinés à la fabrication du papier. Ainsi, un acte passé devant un notaire avignonnais, le 15 janvier 1431, nous dit qu’un artisan exploitant des moulins autour de la ville vend à des marchands italiens toute sa production de papier, dont du papier pour carte à jouer ( Cf. Note 1 ).
{In fact it is Note 3 :see below Note 3}
CHOBAUT
Note 1 - H.CHOBAUT, dans Les Maîtres-Cartiers d’Avignon du XVème Siècle à la Révolution, dans Mémoires de l’Académie de Vaucluse, quatrième série, Tome IV , 1955 :, précise : «L’industrie du papier remonte dans cette région à la seconde moitié du XIVème Siècle».


VERAME
L’existence de «tailleurs de molles» ( moules) ayant été trouvée à Dijon en 1393, à Ulm en 1398 ainsi qu’ à Florence, rien n’empêche donc une ville comme Avignon d’avoir eu des tailleurs de moules pour cartes. Le pape Clément V prônait la diffusion d’images saintes. Le premier cartier avignonnais connu était mercier depuis 1419 et, en 1439, il est désigné comme factor cartorum, puis factor cartorum et pictor, des métiers loin d’être incompatibles au XVe siècle ( Cf. Note 2 ).
CHOBAUT
Note 2 - H. CHOBAUT , op. cité : « Le premier cartier avignonnais connu...était à la fois mercier, peintre et cartier. Ces trois métiers sont parents au XVème siècle, nous le constaterons à maintes reprises. Il ne faut pas oublier qu’à cette époque les merciers vendaient des cartes à jouer, et que celles-ci étaient souvent peintes à la main..(...) A la fin du XVème siècle, les cartiers d’Avignon faisaient partie avec les peintres, de la confrérie de Saint-Luc, encore une preuve de la parenté de ces deux métiers.»
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilde_de_Saint-Luc


VERAME
On peut supposer qu’une partie de cette production partait vers la région et même vers Lyon ( Cf. Note 3 ).
CHOBAUT
Note 3 - H. CHOBAUT , op. cité : « Le 15 janvier 1431, Bernard de Guillermont, fabricant de papier…, locataire de moulins à Entraigues et à Sorgues vend à deux marchands italiens établis en Avignon, toute sa production de papier, entre autre pour cartes à jouer, durant l’année à venir »..
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#63
The "Water wheel" is in heraldry contexts usually the St. Catherine's wheel, from the saint Catherine of Alexandria.

It appears also as attribute at the card Rosenthal sun.

Image


Catherine is one of the 14 Nothelfer. In English she helps against "sudden death". In German she is "Beschützerin der Mädchen, Jungfrauen und Ehefrauen, auch Helferin bei Leiden der Zunge und Sprachschwierigkeiten, und Patronin der Gelehrten sowie auch zahlreicher Handwerksberufe". In French she is patron of
"Filles célibataires
Professions intellectuelles: étudiants, philosophes, orateurs, avocats.
Professions liées à la roue : charrons, meuniers, rémouleurs, tourneurs."
and helps against
"Maladies de la langue.
Célibat.
Dangers des femmes enceintes, fausses couches.
Mort soudaine."
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#64
The question is, then, whose arms would have such a wheel on it, relevant to our study?

There is also the problem that it has to be a wheel with teeth, not a smooth wheel, as in some depictions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_wheel has a section on "Coats of arms". The only one in a relevant location was that of the city of Molsheim, in Lorraine. It has a smooth wheel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_wheel. Possibly French Wikipedia has more, I don't know.

I see no reason why it has to be a heraldic design. Looking at images of water wheels, I see that they have similar "teeth", to catch the water, but they are spaced closer together.

John Shephard, in his book The Tarot Trumps, Cosmos in Miniature (1983), interpreted the wheel as a "toothed escapement wheel of a clock" (p. 81). If you look in Google Images, the images there are much like what is pictured. He associates the picture with the god Mercury. He goes on:
Clocks, or clock parts, were often shown n prints of the children of Mercury as symbols of the ingenuity and inventiveness which he bestowed. Confirmation of the escapement wheel as a symbol of Mercury is to be found in a photograph of one of the so-called Rosenthal cards, The Sun (see figure 12j). Under the image of the sun are shown the toothed escapement wheel (Mercury) and a fleur-de-lys (Venus). The point here is that in classical astrology Mercury and Venus were called the Companions of the Sun, because to an observer on Earth they could never be very far distant from the sun.
He does note that the authenticity of the Rosenthal is questionable. But it still might be a copy of an authentic original it is the symbolism that is important, not the age of the card.

Other relevant attributes of Mercury are, he says, a bird on the wrist (in Mercury's case, a cock), a purse (as god of merchants), and a short sword.

He gives no particular example of such a wheel in a "children of Mercury" picture, but if you look at the one at viewtopic.php?f=14&t=573#p8282, of c. 1475, there is one in the upper left corner.

So it might be someone of a mercurial, i.e. changeable, disposition, such as Charles VIII, who broke his engagement with the daughter of the Emperor (Margaret of Austria) to marry the Duchess of Brittany. Perhaps there are other candidates, with other features of Mercury. Changeableness is a feature of the metal (quick-silver) rather than the god, but I think that counts.

Thanks for drawing the wheel to our attention, Alain.

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#65
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_wheel has a section on "Coats of arms". The only one in a relevant location was that of the city of Molsheim, in Lorraine. It has a smooth wheel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_wheel. Possibly French Wikipedia has more, I don't know.

I see no reason why it has to be a heraldic design. Looking at images of water wheels, I see that they have similar "teeth", to catch the water, but they are spaced closer together.
There are much more with Catherine's wheel, I once researched it with some energy, I'm not interested to repeat it. I don't know, where this material is. Mostly for cities, which had a connection to Catherina of Alexandria (a church or something like this), I remember. I think, there's a lot about heraldry on the Goldschmidt cards.

https://www.google.de/search?q=catherin ... AQ_AUIBigB

*****************

What is, if the deck theme is just about heraldry? Heraldry card decks are known from 17th century. We have only a few cards, so we cannot judge about the whole deck concept.

https://standrewsrarebooks.wordpress.co ... edinburgh/
https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/news/archi ... 919,en.php

http://www.wopc.co.uk/uk/margary/arms

In the Tarot de Paris heraldry of French regions is used for the coin suit ... 16th century.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

H. CHOBAUT Les Maîtres Cartiers d'Avignon ...

#66
Data about an hypothetical "provencal" origin of the Goldschmidt remaining cards .

Complete data also about the so called Tarot de Marseille cartiers from Vaucluse....


I have uploaded the 79 pages of the historical study of:

H CHOBAUT,
Archiviste départemental du Vaucluse
aout-septembre 1936' - revu corrigé et complété avril 1940

Les Maîtres-Cartiers d'Avignon du XVme Siècle à la Révolution

Plan :
1.- Avant-propos
Il.- L'évolution de l'industrie des cartes et les maîtres-cartiers en Avignon du XV" siècte à 1790.
III.- Maîtres, ouvriers et apprentis; la fabrication et la vente des cartes.
IV.- Liste des maîtres-cartiers d'Avignon.
V.- Les maîtres-cartiers de Carpentras.
VI.- Conclusion.
VII.- Pièces justificatives.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... sp=sharing
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#67
... .-) ... We discussed Chobaut earlier ...

ha ... oldest Tarot located 1517 .. no, 1502 :-) .. no, 1492
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=810&p=11542&hilit=chobaut#p11542

Ross gave the comment: "This is the article of Chobaut, and he confuses all Latin-suited packs with Tarot."

Nonetheless Chobaut had carried a lot of material together. But one has to pay attention, otherwise one gets wrong ideas.

Thanks for the text, I'd only a preview version of google.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Armand TAVERNIER / Pierre PEROUSET

#68
If we look up, under Julien de la Rovere, to 1503 for maitres cartiers in Avignon, there are many.
But maitres cartier and paintor, there is one more apart from Armand Tavernier :
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&start=70#p17963

Pierre PEROUSET probably linked to the family of the maitres cartiers de Lyon.
He is :
Baile de la confrérie de saint Luc des peintres et des cartiers en 1492, un des plus importants maitres cartiers d'Avignon .
It is s also mentionned that he used to buy cards : for example, to a merchant of Chieri in 1495.
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#69
Huck wrote:... .-) ... We discussed Chobaut earlier ...

ha ... oldest Tarot located 1517 .. no, 1502 :-) .. no, 1492
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=810&p=11542&hilit=chobaut#p11542

Ross gave the comment: "This is the article of Chobaut, and he confuses all Latin-suited packs with Tarot."

Nonetheless Chobaut had carried a lot of material together. But one has to pay attention, otherwise one gets wrong ideas.

Thanks for the text, I'd only a preview version of google.

Hi Huck

Yes about the confusion between Tarots and Latin suits.
Chobaut is an archivist not a Tarot historian...
1505 remains the oldest literary date for "taraux" in France in "Italian" Avignon (smile)
Simultaneity Avignon /Ferrare ?
the Italian researcher Adriano Franceschini discovered the earliest mention of "tarocchi" in Ferrara records also from 1505! (he discovered this probably over a decade ago, but few knew about it). The Avignon record is from December, the Ferrara (there are two) are from August. Thus, by 1505 the two different forms of this word were already in circulation.
But this is not the point I'm aiming at.
I am looking at "luxury hand painted" cards in Avignon...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=691&start=60#p17960

Armand Taverier, peintre, originaire du diocèse de Lyon, plus précisément de Montbrison, fixé en Avignon, en 1446, mort en 1482. LE 15 janvier 1479, il fournit au Roi René des miroirs, des draps peints et deux jeux de cartes. Il s'agissait sans doute de cartes peintes, de cartes de luxe.

Daring my hypothesis maybe too audacious ...maybe not (smile)
What if the Goldschmidt cards were the remaining luxury hand painted cards of a Provencal "Tarot" Deck - even if the literary evidence for the mention of "Taraux" is Avignon 1505 only?
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#70
The most important man in Avignon was cardinal Giuliano Rovere (papal legate in Avignon since 1476, since 1503 pope Julius II.). In his time in Avignon the city Avignon became a successful card production city. A few years later than 1503 the card business in Avignon declined (so I've read). Likely this has something to do with the condition, that the relation between Julius II and France went bad. But in 1505 Julius II might have ordered the production of Taraux in Avignon.
The Rovere had an oak tree as heraldic design. An oak tree appears in the Leber Tarocchi, which is assumed to have been produced in early 16th century. Possibly in 1505.

Alfonso d'Este in Ferrara was earlier with his Tarochi production (June 1505). The Avignon Taraux followed in December 1505.

Alfonso and Julius II were foes. Julius II was godfather to Ferrante, Alfonso's brother, he wished him to be duke of Ferrara, not Alfonso. And Alfonso had married Lucrezia Borgia, and all Borgia's were also foes of Julius. Ferrante attempted a rebellion 1506 and ended in prison for a long time later, right under the kitchen in the castle Ferrara.

Image

http://pre-gebelin.blogspot.de/2009/04/ ... tarot.html
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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