Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#151
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=30676


IT IS NOT TRUE THAT THERE ARE NO HISTORICAL DATA ABOUT CARDS IN RENE LIFE APART THE 1449 REFERENCE FOR ISBELLE DE LORRAINE

Armand Taverier, peintre, originaire du diocèse de Lyon, plus précisément de Montbrison, fixé en Avignon, en 1446, mort en 1482.
"Le 15 janvier 1479, il fournit au Roi René des miroirs, des draps peints et deux jeux de cartes. Il s'agissait sans doute de cartes peintes, de cartes de luxe".
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... pqd1U/view

PS Was this reference unknown before ? CHOBAUT 1936 gives as his source :
Pierre Pansier
Les peintres d'Avignon au XIVe et au XVe siècles, AVIGNON, 1934 p.286

It would surprize me that it wasn't checked when revising the 'Latin suits' of Chobaut!
Hi
I went today to the Library of Avignon.
I've checked the data.
It is confirmed for two decks for René.
Now, the price is quite high and the order is for a paintor : that's why Chobaut writes that probably it were hand painted luxury cards.

PS I've asked Mikeh to put in order my fotos of the books ...The Library scan and numerisation was caput ...so I had to use my telefone to take shots of the pages of the two books in reference - and I don't really know how to do this right...

Btw

PS I've asked Mikeh to put in order my fotos of the books ...[/quote]

Thanks in advance Mikeh.

I ve also seen that since 1451, they were some commands of cards but for "girls" and later on for "Hellenne" - very cheap.

What is also interesting is when Charles de Bourbon access to Cardilanat, the paintor is commissioned for a big street feast in Avignon with défilés and a Fool - well paid.

I also noted that since 1477, and in 1478 and in 1479, René makes many consultations of Astrologers . The main one is fro Carpentras and he will transmit to René a rich astrolabe with the 12 zodiac signs and 7 planets.
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#152
René ans Astrologers

There were many others but the central one given G. Arnaud Daniel in Les Comptes du Roi René is the following Guillaume de Carpentras

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... sp=sharing

Interesting to note that he also worked for the Duke of Milan and King Charles VIII

NB Maybe of interest also, an entry dated July 1478 talks of "cartes" amonst other goods - of finally little value - of Florentine ships in the Port of BOUC (that is Port de Bouc near Marseille) brought to René : are these cartes à jouer or cartes geographiques? No precision.

There are 3 enormous volumes of G Arnaud Daniel listing all the buyings of King René....So difficult to be exhaustive
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#153
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:René ans Astrologers

There were many others but the central one given G. Arnaud Daniel in Les Comptes du Roi René is the following Guillaume de Carpentras

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... sp=sharing

Interesting to note that he also worked for the Duke of Milan and King Charles VIII

He also realized an Astrolabium regale for René and for Charles de Bourbon
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... sp=sharing
LIST OF RENE S ASTROLOGERS AND THEIR FEES :
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... sp=sharing
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#155
OK
But no googlebooks for this - well, at least I did not find it.

Chobaut 1936 Les Maîtres cartiers d'Avignon du XVè siècle à la Révolution
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... pqd1U/view

wrote p.35 :
"Armand Taverier, peintre, originaire du diocèse de Lyon, plus précisément de Montbrison, fixé en Avignon, en 1446, mort en 1482...
Le 15 janvier 1479, il fournit au Roi René des miroirs, des draps peints et deux jeux de cartes. Il s'agissait sans doute de cartes peintes, de cartes de luxe".

Chobaut gives as his reference :
Pierre Pansier
Les peintres d'Avignon au XIVe et au XVe siècles, AVIGNON, 1934 p.286

At the Library of Avignon, I first looked at Pansier's book.
PANSIER gives Arnaud d'Agnel as his reference :

Abbé G Arnaud D'Agnel
Les Comptes du Roi René publiés d'après les originaux conservés aux Archives des Bouches du Rhône
Tome Premier

Paris
Librairie Alphonse Picard et Fils
Librairie des Archives Nationales et de la Socièté de l' Ecole des Chartes
1908


Armand Tavernier pp 220-226
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... sp=sharing

The entry is at the end of page 222 and at the beginning of page 223
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#157
Problem of uploading pages ...This night Avignon's internet is!
1. The data is first given by Chobaut 1936 p. 35
"Armand Taverier, peintre, originaire de Lyon, plus précisément de Montbrison, fixé en Avignon, en 1446, mort en 1482...
Le 15 janvier 1479, il fournit au Roi René des miroirs, des draps peints et deux jeux de cartes. Il s'agissait sans doute de cartes peintes, de cartes de luxe".
http://provence-historique.mmsh.univ-ai ... 022_01.pdf
Chobaut 1936 Les Maîtres cartiers d'Avignon du XVè siècle à la Révolution


Added December 12 : but this affirmation is not, in it's description, correct because there are no "draps paints" in the command of january 1479 specific of Cards- only in the command in March 1479.
Chobaut relies on PANSIER who mixed the two commands talking of the commands of King rené to Tavernier in 1479

(Comment : I suppose that Chobaut believes it were hand painted cards because Tavernien was a not only a maitre cartier but a painter :
Tavernier is not only a cardmaker (maître cartier : many years of formation) but a painter (with 3 years of formation under a Master from Burgundy settled in Avignon.
Armand Tavernier est engagé trois ans chez Guillaume Dombet en 1446 pour apprendre la peinture (au lieu de deux ans).
https://books.google.fr/books?id=9KgeXw ... re&f=false)



2. Chobaut gives PANSIER as his reference
PANSIER 1934 pp.220-226 on Tavernier
Entry pp 222-223 on René's command to Tavernier
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... sp=sharing

Pierre Pansier Les peintres d'Avignon au XIVe et au XVe siècles, AVIGNON, 1934 p.286

Added December 12th : PANSIER gives 46 florins 6 sous ,as the price of two commands I think - one in january 1479 specific of cards amongst other things, and another in March 1479 'with draps peints" - where there is no mention of Cards.

3. Pansier gives D'AGNEL as his reference
D'AGNEL 1908
Entry 565 p.198 Volume I : René's Comptes listing the command of the two decks to Tavernier in January 1479 and also the command of March 1479
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... sp=sharing

Abbé G Arnaud D'Agnel Les Comptes du Roi René publiés d'après les originaux conservés aux Archives des Bouches du Rhône Tome Premier
Paris Librairie Alphonse Picard et Fils Librairie des Archives Nationales et de la Société de l' Ecole des Chartes 1908

Added December 12th 2016 :

Image

:-h
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#158
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:Problem of uploading pages ...This night Avignon's internet is!
1. The data is first given by Chobaut 1936 p. 35
"Armand Taverier, peintre, originaire de Lyon, plus précisément de Montbrison, fixé en Avignon, en 1446, mort en 1482...
Le 15 janvier 1479, il fournit au Roi René des miroirs, des draps peints et deux jeux de cartes. Il s'agissait sans doute de cartes peintes, de cartes de luxe".
http://provence-historique.mmsh.univ-ai ... 022_01.pdf
Chobaut 1936 Les Maîtres cartiers d'Avignon du XVè siècle à la Révolution
The book is from 1955 (or 1957), not 1936.
At p. 35 in the Pdf-file
Image

2. Chobaut gives PANSIER as his reference
PANSIER 1934 pp.220-226 on Tavernier
Entry pp 222-223 on René's command to Tavernier
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... sp=sharing
Image


Image


You overlook, that the case is repeated in the following documents:

Image


Pierre Pansier Les peintres d'Avignon au XIVe et au XVe siècles, AVIGNON, 1934 p.286

3. Pansier gives D'AGNEL as his reference
D'AGNEL 1908
Entry 565 p.198 Volume I : René's Comptes listing the command of the two decks to Tavernier
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... sp=sharing

Abbé G Arnaud D'Agnel Les Comptes du Roi René publiés d'après les originaux conservés aux Archives des Bouches du Rhône Tome Premier
Paris Librairie Alphonse Picard et Fils Librairie des Archives Nationales et de la Société de l' Ecole des Chartes 1908
Image
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#159
Huck wrote:
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:Problem of uploading pages ...This night Avignon's internet is!
1. The data is first given by Chobaut 1936 p. 35
"Armand Taverier, peintre, originaire de Lyon, plus précisément de Montbrison, fixé en Avignon, en 1446, mort en 1482...
Le 15 janvier 1479, il fournit au Roi René des miroirs, des draps peints et deux jeux de cartes. Il s'agissait sans doute de cartes peintes, de cartes de luxe".
http://provence-historique.mmsh.univ-ai ... 022_01.pdf
Chobaut 1936 Les Maîtres cartiers d'Avignon du XVè siècle à la Révolution


CHOBAUT

You wrote : "The book is from 1955 (or 1957), not 1936. "

Alain : the book of CHOBAUT is signed as 1936 revised in 1940

p 57
http://provence-historique.mmsh.univ-ai ... 022_01.pdf

H CHOBAUT
Archiviste départemental du Vaucluse

Aout Septembre 1936

Revu, corrigé et complété avril 1940
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

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