Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#141
Phaeded wrote:
My comments back in 2013:
Marcello saw the Marziano deck sometime in November/December 1448 when he rejoined Sforza from Brescia, for these are the only months in 1448 that the Venetians were not incurring loss after loss to Sforza (notably Casalmaggiore and Caravaggio) . So when Marcello writes at the end of 1449 to Rene’s wife that he saw the cards “last year in the field of Milan” it had to have been after the October 1449 Treaty of Rivoltella when Sforza switched sides back to the Venetians who agreed to support him in taking Milan against the Ambrosian Republic.
There is a letter of February 1449, in which Sforza introduced Marcello to Renee, according which Marcello didn't know Renee and so hadn't a reason to think about a deck for Isabella.
And I think, that it is not correct to say, that "So when Marcello writes at the end of 1449 to Rene’s wife that he saw the cards “last year in the field of Milan” ..." he didn't saw the cards, he got the idea to search for the cards, when Scipio Caraffa had the idea to send a Trionfi deck to Isabella.

Its also hard to imagine that Marcello did not see Sforza/Bianca's CY deck - as the 'World' trump has similarities.
I don't see the similarities.

I see ...

Image


... a crowned Justice with 2 human heads at her feet, which likely shall indicate, that it not funny to play stupids games with the Venetian army.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#142
From Margaret L. King, page 67

Image


Marcus Claudius Marcellus, assumed ancestor of the Venetian Marcello family
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Claudius_Marcellus
Later life: Second Punic War[edit]
Marcus Claudius Marcellus re-emerged onto both the political and military scene during the Second Punic War, in which he took part in important battles. In 216 BC, the third year of the Second Punic War, Marcellus was elected as a praetor. A praetor served either as an elected magistrate or as the commander of an army, the latter of which duties Marcellus was selected to fulfil in Sicily.[2] Unfortunately, as Marcellus and his men were preparing to ship to Sicily, his army was recalled to Rome owing to the devastating losses at Cannae, one of the worst defeats in Roman history.[5] By the orders of the Senate, Marcellus was forced to dispatch 1,500 of his men to Rome to protect the city after the terrible defeat by Hannibal of Carthage. With his remaining army, along with remnants of the army from Cannae, (who were considered to have been disgraced by the defeat and by surviving it), Marcellus camped near Suessula, a city in the region of Campania in Southern Italy. At this point, part of the Carthaginian army began to make a move for the city of Nola. Marcellus repelled the attacks and managed to keep the city from the grasp of Hannibal. Although the battle at Nola was rather unimportant in regards to the Second Punic War as a whole, the victory was “important from its moral effect, as the first check, however slight, that Hannibal had yet received.”[2]

Then, in 215 BC, Marcellus was summoned to Rome by the Dictator M. Junius Pera, who wanted to consult with him about the future conduct of the war. After this meeting, Marcellus earned the title of proconsul.[2] In the same year, when the consul L. Postumius Albinus was killed in battle, Marcellus was unanimously chosen by the Roman people to be his successor. Livy and Plutarch tell us a bad omen occurred, allegedly because the other consul was also a plebeian. Marcellus stepped aside and Q. Fabius Maximus Cunctator took his place. Supposedly, the senate (interpreting the gods) disapproved of having two plebeian consuls.[2] Marcellus was appointed proconsul, whereupon, he defended the city of Nola, once again, from the rear guard of Hannibal’s army. The following year, 214 BC, Marcellus was elected consul yet again, this time with Fabius Maximus. For a third time, Marcellus defended Nola from Hannibal and even captured the small but significant town of Casilinum.

Sicily and Syracuse[edit]
Main article: Siege of Syracuse (214–212 BC)
Following his victory at Casilinum, Marcellus was sent to Sicily, upon which Hannibal had set his sights. Upon arrival, Marcellus found the island in disarray. Hieronymus, the new ruler of the Roman-ally Kingdom of Syracuse, had recently come to the throne on his grandfather's death and fallen under the influence of the Carthaginian agents Hippocrates and Epicydes. He then declared war against the Romans after the Carthaginian victory at the Battle of Cannae. However, Hieronymus was soon deposed; the new Syracusan leaders attempted a reconciliation with Rome, but could not quell their suspicions and then aligned themselves with the Carthaginians. In 214 BC, the same year that he was sent to Sicily, Marcellus attacked the city of Leontini, where the two Syracusan rulers were residing. After successfully storming the city, Marcellus had 2,000 Roman deserters (who had been hiding in the city) killed, and moved to lay siege to Syracuse itself. At this point, several cities in the province of Sicily rose in rebellion against Roman rule. The siege lasted for two long years, partly because the Roman effort was thwarted by the military machines of the famous inventor Archimedes. Meanwhile, leaving the bulk of the Roman legion in the command of Appius Claudius at Syracuse, Marcellus and a small army roamed Sicily, conquering opponents and taking such rebellious cities as Helorus, Megara, and Herbessus.

After Marcellus returned and continued the siege, the Carthaginians attempted to relieve the city, but were driven back. Overcoming formidable resistance and the ingenious devices of Archimedes, the Romans finally took the city in the summer of 212 BC. Plutarch wrote that Marcellus, when he had previously entered the city for a diplomatic meeting with the Syracusans, had noticed a weak point in its fortifications. He made his attack at this fragile spot, using a night attack by a small group of hand-picked soldiers to storm the walls and open the gates.[2] During the fighting, Archimedes was killed, an act Marcellus regretted.[6] Plutarch writes that the Romans rampaged through the city, taking much of the plunder and artwork they could find. This has significance because Syracuse was a Greek city filled with Greek culture, art and architecture. Much of this Greek art was taken to Rome, where it was one of the first major impacts of Greek influence on Roman culture.[5]

Following his victory at Syracuse, Marcellus remained in Sicily, where he defeated more Carthaginian and rebel foes. The important city of Agrigentum was still under Carthaginian control, though there was now little the Carthaginian leadership could do to support it, as the campaigns against the Romans in Spain and Italy now took precedence. At the end of 211 BC, Marcellus resigned from command of the Sicilian province, thereby putting the praetor of the region, M. Cornelius, in charge. On his return to Rome, Marcellus did not receive the triumphal honours that would be expected for such a feat, as his political enemies objected that he had not fully eradicated the threats in Sicily.[2]

Death in battle[edit]
The final period of Marcus Claudius Marcellus’ life began with his fourth election to Roman consul in 210 BC. Marcellus’ election to office sparked much controversy and resentment towards Marcellus because of accusations by political opponents that his actions in Sicily were excessively brutal.[2] Representatives of Sicilian cities presented themselves before the senate to complain about Marcellus' past actions. The complaints prevailed and Marcellus was forced to switch control of provinces with his colleague, so that Marcellus was not the consul in control of Sicily. On switching provinces, Marcellus took command of the Roman army in Apulia,[2] leading it to many decisive victories against the Carthaginians. First, Marcellus took the city of Salapia and then continued along his way by conquering two cities in the region of Samnium. Next, when the army of Cn. Fulvius, another Roman general, was completely dismantled by Hannibal, Marcellus and his army stepped in to check the progress of the Carthaginian leader. Then Marcellus and Hannibal fought a battle at Numistro, where a clear victory could not be decided, although Rome claimed a victory. Following this battle, Marcellus continued to keep Hannibal in check, yet the two armies never met in a decisive battle.

In 209 BC, Marcellus was named as a proconsul and retained control of his army. During that year, the Roman Army under Marcellus faced Hannibal's forces in a series of skirmishes and raids, without being drawn into open battle. Marcellus defended his actions and tactics in front of the senate and he was named a consul for the fifth time for the year 208 BC. After entering his fifth consulship Marcellus, re-entered the field and took command of the army at Venusia. While on a reconnaissance mission with his colleague, T. Quinctius Crispinus, and a small band of 220 horsemen, the group was ambushed and nearly completely slaughtered by a much larger Carthaginian force of Numidian horsemen.[1][2] Marcellus was impaled by a spear and died on the field.[2] In the following days, Crispinus died of his wounds.

In the year 23 BC, Emperor Augustus recounted that Hannibal had allowed Marcellus a proper funeral and even sent the ashes back to Marcellus’ son.[1] The loss of both consuls was a major blow to Roman morale, as the Republic had lost its two senior military commanders in a single battle, while the formidable Carthaginian army was still at large in Italy.
... this Marcellus indeed had a lot of action against Hannibal (and likely also against Hannibal's elephants).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#143
The curious elephant doesn't look lucky ...

Image


... the ears are hanging down.

The strange water scene possibly belongs to the upper building, and indicates, that Venice is save in its waters. Cossa is said to have also conspirated with Genova as an old enemy of Venice and the past knew attacks from the sea side by Genova against Venice (1379, Chioggia was conquered and taken for a year).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chioggia
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#145
A few comments.

Huck wrote,
The number of letters at the picture roughly are the same ...
the upper line has from left to right 2-3-8-3-4-4or5 letters as "Se mia speranza non dixe bugia"
the lower line looks more difficult.
A fuller explanation is in Meiss (Andrea Mantegna as Illuminator, 1957, p. 12):

What is chiefly difficult about the lower line is how it is to be understood. Here is the couplet again:
If my hopes do not deceive me
You, Cossa, will not make my country ungrateful to you
In other words, "my country will be grateful if you do as I wish", perhaps implying that Venice will support Rene's claim to Naples if they sabotage Sforza. In the event, Cossa arrived in September, near the end of the battle season and didn't do much. But Venice supported Alfonso's drive into Tuscany. And Milan and Florence were no longer interested in French assistance or the French claims on Naples (Meiss, p. 16). Rene, "half aware of this betrayal" (Meiss p. 16; but who betrayed who?) beat a hasty retreat three months before the Treaty of Lodi was signed. It seems that they had served their purpose just being there, forcing the Venetians to negotiate.

But is this reading of the second line right? The problem is that there is no "to you", and instead the last wod is "mia". Meiss explains why the "to you ' is right:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1dxDYjT4U80/ ... ge-009.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-yVVy3F-t5Es/ ... ge-010.jpg

Phaeded wrote
Its also hard to imagine that Marcello did not see Sforza/Bianca's CY deck - as the 'World' trump has similarities.
To which Huck replied, starting
I don't see the similarities.
I see both similarities and dissimilarities. Instead of the trumpet, there is an elephant. Elephants were symbolic of military fame. They were standard accoutrements of Roman triumphal parades. Not only is the top part similar, but the bottom part is similar to another illumination in the same manuscript, from the legend of St. Maurice:
(http://famwiechers.nl/met-naam-gekende- ... tegna.html)
Image

But it is hard to say one way or the other whether the CY card inspired either. They seem fairly standard. And we don't know how much direction Marcello gave the illuminator (who might have been a Bellini but also might have been Mantegna, or, surely in the case of the one above, neither).

The water is to make it clear that the building is the Ducal Palace in Venice, and also to paint birds, which would appeal to Rene, according to Meiss. And also to paint Venice as a sea power, to which Marcello as elephant is necessary on land, however reluctantly he carries his burden (the drooping ears? nobody surely knew if elephants dropped their ears, there being no elephants in Italy until the 16th century per Meiss, but dogs did).

Huck wrote,
There is a letter of February 1449, in which Sforza introduced Marcello to Renee, according which Marcello didn't know Rene and so hadn't a reason to think about a deck for Isabella.
If Marcello was allied with Sforza and knew that Sforza was seeking help from Rene, that is enough for him to start thinking about gifts. And somehow he knew she liked to play cards, among which I think the letter assumes was triumphs.

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#146
mikeh wrote: The water is to make it clear that the building is the Ducal Palace in Venice, and also to paint birds, which would appeal to Rene, according to Meiss. And also to paint Venice as a sea power, to which Marcello as elephant is necessary on land, however reluctantly he carries his burden (the drooping ears? nobody surely knew if elephants dropped their ears, there being no elephants in Italy until the 16th century per Meiss, but dogs did).

Huck wrote,
There is a letter of February 1449, in which Sforza introduced Marcello to Renee, according which Marcello didn't know Rene and so hadn't a reason to think about a deck for Isabella.
If Marcello was allied with Sforza and knew that Sforza was seeking help from Rene, that is enough for him to start thinking about gifts. And somehow he knew she liked to play cards, among which I think the letter assumes was triumphs.
Marcello started to think about cards, when Scipio Caraffa was there. At least - so he tells the story. And Scipio Caraffa likely brought a positive answer from Renee.

And there were 2 battles for Colleoni, against Savoy, 1st and 22nd of April 1449. The last was deciding, the battle of Borgomanero. Savoy searched for peace after this.
http://www.comune.borgomanero.no.it/Bor ... manero.pdf

And Marcello talks of a personal attempt to produce the deck himself.

There is a strange journey from Mantegna to Milan, and Mantegna had disrupted his work on a church for this. Mantegna appeared in Ferrara end of May 1449, likely after this strange journey. He painted a picture for Leonello, but what he really wanted there, is unknown. In Ferrara it was known how to produce Trionfi decks. Mantegna worked for Marcello, at least later. He was also considered as painter of the St. Maurice manuscript.
The negotiations between Savoy and Venice (likely May 1449) possibly opened the way to the Michelino deck, so the search for a self-produced deck became obsolete for Marcello. Mantegna returned to his work at the church.

If Marcello was proud of his descent of the Roman general Marcellus, who fought against the elephants of Hannibal, it's obscure, if he painted himself as an elephant. The order motto "Los en croissant" fits to Fame.

And, btw., the picture with the elephant is indeed very similar to a chess figure:

Image
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#147
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=30676


IT IS NOT TRUE THAT THERE ARE NO HISTORICAL DATA ABOUT CARDS IN RENE LIFE APART THE 1449 REFERENCE FOR ISBELLE DE LORRAINE

Armand Taverier, peintre, originaire du diocèse de Lyon, plus précisément de Montbrison, fixé en Avignon, en 1446, mort en 1482.
"Le 15 janvier 1479, il fournit au Roi René des miroirs, des draps peints et deux jeux de cartes. Il s'agissait sans doute de cartes peintes, de cartes de luxe".
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... pqd1U/view

PS Was this reference unknown before ? CHOBAUT 1936 gives as his source :
Pierre Pansier
Les peintres d'Avignon au XIVe et au XVe siècles, AVIGNON, 1934 p.286

It would surprize me that it wasn't checked when revising the 'Latin suits' of Chobaut!
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#148
Huck wrote:
Phaeded wrote:
Its also hard to imagine that Marcello did not see Sforza/Bianca's CY deck - as the 'World' trump has similarities.
I don't see the similarities.

I see ...
... a crowned Justice with 2 human heads at her feet, which likely shall indicate, that it not funny to play stupids games with the Venetian army.
What you see is the primary symbol of Venice (in addition to the winged lion), described by King as 'Venezia Magna'. Its a stand in or allegory for Venice herself, but given that she is seated, she is not dissimilar from the bust of 'Fama of Sforza, ruler of Visconti Cremona' in the CY (or whatever you want to call the CY 'World'). Both overlook their respective domains - the Venetian lagoon (by extension, the seas Venice wished to rule) and the Cremona contado. The CY shows a one-off unique image (a specific fama) because she has a new ruler that has not forged an urban identity with that city as of yet. Venice on the other hand had a well-worn image; in fact its taken from the medallion embedded in the Doge's palace, of which Marcello's illumination is a elongated version of said palace. The medallion:
Image

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#149
BOUGEAREL Alain wrote:http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=30676
+
"Le 15 janvier 1479, il fournit au Roi René des miroirs, des draps peints et deux jeux de cartes. Il s'agissait sans doute de cartes peintes, de cartes de luxe".
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Hg6j ... pqd1U/view
Alain,
Nice find on Rene.

Also, thanks for the link to old thread - this is neither here nor there in regard to the current topic, but certainly helps explain the c. 1450 PMB "papess" as a Franciscan tertiary (the new pope was also reforming the order then):
...René d'Anjou was very devoted to the Franciscan order, and in fact Bernardino of Siena was his confessor while René was in Naples, 1438-1442. René was actually one of the foremost proponents of Bernardino's canonisation, which occured in 1450. (Ross Caldwell)

Image
Franciscan tertiary, Zanino Di Pietro.jpg
Franciscan tertiary, Zanino Di Pietro.jpg (247.09 KiB) Viewed 3694 times

Re: John Shephard - Goldschmidt tarot

#150
Image


Thanks for the picture. This is indeed similar to the Marcello picture with elephant.

I would say, that Geometria, Mantegna Tarocchi, ...

Image


... is more similar to the Cary-Yale Fame, also "Agrippina in the sky" in the clouds of old Cologne by Woensam, ...

Image


... also the Moscito-Fame above Florence ...

Image


... than the Justice-on-a-throne in Venice ...

Image


... which is not very high in the air at the St. Marcus place. Likely there were changes to the palace after 1453, perhaps the justice figure once was higher positioned and larger.

Image


End of 14th century:


Only in 1424, did Doge Francesco Foscari decide to extend the rebuilding works to the wing overlooking the Piazzetta, serving as law-courts, and with a ground floor arcade on the outside, open first floor loggias running along the façade, and the internal courtyard side of the wing, completed with the construction of the Porta della Carta (1442).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doge%27s_Palace

I find this picture ...


...commented with ...
located at the gateway to the Palazzo Ducale above the bust of St. Mark, a sculpture of Justice with her sword and scales
https://marthapfeil.com/2012/07/14/veni ... lla-carta/

... and this ..

Image

http://renruskin.blogspot.de/2014_04_20_archive.html

Porta della Carta with Justice at top.

Well, just in 1452 Sforza had his doubts about the Justice in Venice ...

Image


... and Venice itself got serious doubts about the Justice of Doge Francesco Foscari.

I find ...

wiki:
The "Porta della Carta" is the entrance of the Palazzo Ducale in Venice. It was built in the flamboyant Gothic style designed by Giovanni and Bartolomeo Bon in 1438-1442. Above the door, shows the Doge Francesco Foscari; sculpture that you see now, however, is a nineteenth century copy, sculpted by Luigi Ferrari after the original was destroyed in 1797, the fall of the Venetian Republic.
Sforza was in Venice then.
Marcello was then already related to Sforza, together they planned, that Sforza should help Renee d'Anjou in Naples (so Marcello should have known the Cary-Yale-Tarocchi, if the deck was indeed made for the wedding in October 1442). But it took some time, till Sforza started in this direction, and Renee lost Naples much more quickly than anyone had expected.

**************
Added:

It's interesting to observe, that the triumphal door "Porta della Carta" (Venice) was earlier than the triumphal door of Alfonso of Aragon in Naples (made around 1452-1465).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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