Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#50
I made a very interesting find.

Cod. Pal. germ. 7
Wahrsagebuch (= lot book)
Bayern, 1. Hälfte 15. Jh.
http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit ... fc1c30dacc

A lot book based on 32 animals, each with 32 one-line-answers, 32 Prophets (+ 4 additional philosophs), 32 questions or themes.

All 22 animals of the Fränkische Losbuch are part of the 32 animals in this text. The row of the animals is confusing, not the same as in the Fränkische Losbuch, with the exception, that Wag = Libra is again the first sign.
10 animals are new, 7 of the them are birds.
The connecting system seems to be rather similar to the Fränkische Losbuch, but again, there are a lot of differences. But it's close enough to state, that both lot books existed not independent from each other.

That's the row (FL stands for Fränkische Losbuch with number of the already known motifs):

01 Wag (zodiac Waage/Libra, FL 1)
02 Gauch oder Guguck (cuckoo, new)
03 Esel (donkey, FL 22)
04 Falck (falcon, new)
05 Nachtigal (nightingale, FL 16)
06 Fuchs (fox, new)
07 Hierß (stag, FL 19)
08 Per (bear, new)
09 Hunt (dog, FL 20)
10 Krebs (zodiac Krebs/Cancer, FL 4)
11 Leb (zodiac Löwe/Leo, FL 5)
12 Junckfraw (zodiac Jungfrau/Virgo, FL 7)
13 Zwihling (zodiac Zwilling/Gemini, FL 10)
14 Visch (zodiac Fische/Pisces, FL 8)
15 Weßrer (zodiac Wassermann/Aquarius, FL 9)
16 Sperwer (sparrowhawk, new)
17 Schutz (zodiac Schütze/Sagitarius, FL 11)
18 Krannich (crane, FL 14)
19 Adler (eagle, FL 15)
20 Hann (cock, new)
21 Taube (pigeon, new)
22 Scorp (zodiac Scorpio, FL 12)
23 Einhorn (unicorn, zodiac Steinbock/Capricorn, FL 13)
24 Awle (Owl, new)
25 Rab (Raven, 13th zodiac sign, FL 6)
26 Wieder (zodiac Aries, FL 2)
27 Ochß (Einhorn, zodiac Taurus, FL 3)
28 Kamel (camel, FL 17)
29 Sitich (parrot, FL 18)
30 Haß (Hare FL 21)
31 Aglaster (bird, Elster = magpie ?, new)
32 Gaiß (goat, new)


Here is the other list (from Fränkische Losbuch)
1. Ob ains an Wirdigkeit mag komen (question)
If one gets honors (translation of question)
Prophet David (Prophet)
King Franckreich (France) (King)
Animal: Wag - Zodiac: Libra (Animal ... in this case a zodiac sign)
Further attributions: Mercury / North

2. Ob ains gedancken vollend mugen werden
If one's ideas reach their goal
Prophet Daniel
King Engelland (England)
Animal: Wider - Zodiac: Aries
Further attributions: Mercury / West

3. Ob es gut sey wider feynd kriegen
If it is good to fight against an enemy
Prophet Zacharias
King Schottenland (Scotland)
Animal: Ochs - Zodiac: Taurus
Further attributions: Jupiter / East

4. Von frawen haymlichkeit
About "Hamlichkeit" of the woman
Prophet Isaias
King Ungern (Hungary)
Animal: Krebs - Zodiac: Cancer
Further attributions: Jupiter / North

5. Von gottes huld und gnaden
About god's grace
Prophet Abacuck
King Marroch (Marocco)
Animal: Leb - Zodiac: Leo
Further attributions: Mercury / East

6. Von manne haymlickeit
About "Haymlichkeit" of the man
Prophet Jonas
King Cecilien (Sicilia ?)
Animal: Rab - Crow
Further attributions: Mercury / South

7. Von gtrewn Lewten
About loyal persons
Prophet Malachias
King Römischer König (Rome)
Animal Jungfraw - Zodiac: Virgo
Further attributions: Jupiter / South

8. Von vil frawen
About many women
Prophet Jeremias
King Morenland (land of the Moors)
Animal Fisch - Zodiac: Pisces
Further attributions: Venus / East

9. Von reichtum
about richness
Prophet Gedeon
King Armenien (Armenia)
Animal Wassertrager - Zodiac: Aquarius
Further attributions: Mars / North

10. Von langem leben
About long life
Prophet Nabuchodonnsor
King Schweden (Sweden)
Animal Zwyling - Zodiac: Gemini
Further attributions: Jupiter / West

11. Von deinem frewnde
About a male friend
Prophet Ismahelite
King Turcken (Turkey)
Animal Schutz - Zodiac: Sagitarius
Further attributions: Mars / South

12. Von deiner Frewndin
About a female friend
Prophet Theodosius
King Spangen (Spain)
Animal: Scorpion Zodiac: Scorpio
Further attributions: Mars / West

13. Ob es gut sej wallen
If it good to "wallen" (? to wander or to make a pilgrim's journey ?)
Prophet Putifar
King Indian (India)
Animal Einhorn - Zodiac: unicorn/capricorn
Further attributions: Mars / East

14. Ob es gut sey zu Ee greffen
If it good to marry
Prophet Olibrius
King Capodocia (central Turkey, Anatolia)
Animal: Kranch (crane)
Further attributions: Venus / North

15. Ob eins sein schuld vergelten mag
If something is paid back
Prophet Moyses
King Tartern (land of the Tartars ? Mongolia ?)
Animal: Arr (eagle)
Further attributions: Sun /NorthEast

16. Von weisheit und thorheit
About wisdom and stupidity
Prophet Isaac
King Lilio (?)
Animal: Nachtigall (nightingale)
Further attributions: Venus / South

17. Von herren lone
About salary of a master
Prophet Abraham
King Nobie (Nubia)
Animal: Kamelthyer (camel)
Further attributions: Venus / West

18. Von sorgen
About sorrows
Prophet Joseph
King Cypern (Cyprus)
Animal Syttich (parrot)
Further attributions: Moon / SouthEast

19. Ob eins verloren ding wider finde
If a lost object is found again
Prophet Samuel
King Arragon (Aragon)
Animal: Hyrs (stag)
Further attributions: Saturn / West

20. Von hoffnung
About hope
Prophet Israhel
King Babylonien (Babylon)
Animal: Hundt (dog)
Further attributions: Saturn / East

21. Ob ein gefangener erlöst mug werden
If a prisoner will be released
Prophet Nathan
King - Emperor
Animal: Has (Hare)
Further attributions: Saturn / North

22. Von der libe
About love
Prophet Jacob
King - Pope
Animal: Esel (donkey)
Further attributions: Saturn / South
I took some snapshots:

Two of the animals (animal pages with small animal and 32 lines of text):

Image


Image


4 outside philosophs:

Image


Some of the Prophets:

Image


Technical pages (at one I added the 7 connected planets):

Image


Image
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#51
I looked for the prophets ... difficult

I got for the prophets:

01 David
02 Daniel
03 Zacharias
04 Amos
05 Isaias ?
06 Jonas ?
07 Abakuk
08 Malachias
09 Balaam
10 Jeremias
11 Sophonias (= Zephanja)
12
13 Zachoris (? Zacharias ?)
14 Gedeon
15 Nabuchodnosor
16
17 Putiphar
18
19 Theodosp (? Theodosius)
20 Olybras (=Olybrius)
21 Morel ?
22 Moyses
23 Isaac
24 Abraham
25 Israliel ?
26
27 Samuel
28
29
30 Sawlin (Saul ?)
31
32 Joseph

I cannot read all names. From that, what I can read, the row is partly similar to that, what is used by the Fränkische Losbuch.

*************

In the next step I studied the second order as given by this page ...

Image


In contrast to the other order as given by the row of the animals, as they are presented by the row of the pages in the book (as given in my post to this book, let's give it the name "order A"), this order ("order B") makes more sense.
Generally one can observe, that the 32 elements are parted in 3 basic groups: 12 normal zodiac signs, 12 birds (from which one, the Raven, gives a 13th zodiac sign) and 8 animals, which don't fly.

Here's my analysis:

Image


More or less the 12 zodiac signs build a group of 12 (No. 3-15, I've marked them in light blue), only broken by the "donkey" (08, dark blue), which in the Fränkische Losorakel got a connection to the highest element (Pope). This intrusion by the pope-donkey causes, that one of the zodiac signs (11 of them are in the spheres of Saturn-Jupiter-Mars) drops down to the sphere of the Sun. This one is the Sagitarius, the Schutz or Schütze, in other words the hunter.
And a hunter is needed in the lower section of the arrangement, cause there a lot of animals, which might be hunted. Well, but let's first research of the begin and the construction of the zodiac in this system.


Saturn-Sphere: The first 2 signs are animals, which one doesn't meet in German forests, the camel and the parrot (01 + 02). Naturally they don't belong to the lower hunter's world. In the Fränkische Losbuch they have the position 17+18, so higher than all the zodiac signs (1-13) and higher than the follwing birds beside the parrot (14-17). In the order B they belong to the sphere of Saturn, together with 4 zodiac signs. The first zodiac sign is here 03 Taurus ... and we see the curious sensation, that the first 3 of this system ...

01 camel = gimel
02 parrot , a bird living in the house and in the parrot-house and house = beth
03 TAURUS = Ox = aleph

... somehow refer to the Hebrew alphabet. Curiously.

With 04 we've the usual old zodiac starting sign "LIBRA" (Babylon), and CANCER (05) (which somehow starts the planet row inside the zodiac with Cancer = moon) and ARIES (06), which starts the zodiac in modern times.

Then the Saturn sphere is finished.
Now one might observe, that Libra is the only sign in the zodiac with an artificial presentation, the other 11 signs are either at least a little bit humanoid (4 of them) or just animals (7 of them). Indeed this trivialand very old arrangement seems to be a key here in this lot book system:

04 Libra (artificial) ... Sphere of Saturn
09 Gemini (humanoid; man and woman united) ... Sphere of Jupiter
11 Aquarius (humanoid; man) ... Sphere of Mars
13 Virgo (humanoid; virgin, female) ... Sphere of Mars
15 Sagitarius (half humanoid, half animal, hunter) ... Sphere of Sun (as the single Zodiac sign of all, somehow moved by the donkey-pope)

Jupiter-Sphere (considered friendly): Gemini (09 =" Adam+Eve" in the interpretation of the Fränkische Losbuch) is accompanied by the pope donkey (08; well, they want marry, they need a priest), the "capricorn = unicorn" (07; symbol for innocence) and the Scorpio (10; interpreted as the viper in the paradise ?)

Mars-Sphere (considered more vital): Male Aquarius with much water meets female Virgo, which needs water. Pisces (opposite of Virgo, indication of Venus ?) and Leo (opposite of Aquarius) accompany the process. Somehow it seems, that Aquarius becomes a Leo, and Virgo gets a fish.

Sun-Sphere: Sagitarius (15), having been dropped from paradise gets falcon (17) and sparrowhawk (18) as helpers to hunt the most noble crane (16).

Venus-Sphere: 3 birds and another natural hunter, the fox, who likely gets only the cck, and not the Venus birds nightingale and pigeon.

Mercury-Sphere: 4 birds this time, as Mercury (with wings at his feet) is - somehow - also a bird. Special birds: The Raven as th 13th zodiac sign, the cuckoo, who tricks the other birds, the eagle, cause Mercury is the messeger of Zeus, and the owl, the king of the nights.

Moon-Sphere: Only one bird this time, the magpie-thief, but 5 animals with 4 legs: the goat, a dog, who can hunt the hare, a bear with chances to capture the stag.

**********

This "order B" looks like a plain story, not too complicated. The possible involvement of 3 Hebrew letters is "strange". But the other parts look easy. No deep involvement of very old astrology as in the Fränkische Losbuch.

"Order A" I don't understand for the moment. Maybe just a difference "by error" between writer and designer?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#52
Hmmm The Pope with Donkey......

Silenus is an old man with a bald head and a snub nose, who is generally to be seen riding on a donkey; he is of Lydian extraction. Assembly of Gods or Gods Council by Lucian spoken by Momus.
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#53
Lorredan wrote:Hmmm The Pope with Donkey......

Silenus is an old man with a bald head and a snub nose, who is generally to be seen riding on a donkey; he is of Lydian extraction. Assembly of Gods or Gods Council by Lucian spoken by Momus.
Nice to meet you,
Zeus (addressing undesired persons): Now, gentlemen, enough of that muttering and whispering in corners. You complain that our banquets are thrown open to a number of undesirable persons. Very well: the Assembly has been convened for the purpose of dealing with this very point, and every one is at liberty to declare his sentiments openly, and bring what allegations he will.--Hermes, make formal proclamation to that effect.

Hermes (opening the discussion): All duly qualified divinities are hereby invited to address the Assembly on the subject of foreigners and immigrants.

Momus (asks for permission to speak): Have I your permission to speak, sir?

Zeus (agrees): It is not needed; you have heard the proclamation.

Momus (addressing a problem with the increased number of gods): I desire, then, to protest against the insufferable vanity of some among us who, not content with their own promotion to godhead, would introduce their dependants and underlings here as our equals. Sir, I shall express myself on this subject with that blunt sincerity which is inseparable from my character. I am known to the world as one whose unfettered tongue cannot refrain from speech in the presence of wrong-doing; as one who probes matters to the bottom, and says what he thinks, without concealment, without fear, and without scruple. My frankness is burdensome to the generality of Gods, who mistake it for censoriousness; I have been termed by such the Accuser General. But I shall none the less avail myself of the freedom accorded to me by the proclamation--and by your permission, sir--to speak my mind without reserve.--There are, I repeat it, many persons who, despite their mixed origin, have been admitted to our feasts and councils upon terms of equality; and who, not satisfied with this, have brought hither their servants and satellites, and enrolled them among the Gods; and these menials now share in our rations and sacrifices without ever so much as paying the customary tax.

Zeus (doesn't understand): These are riddles. Say what you mean in so many words, and let us have the names. Generalities of this kind can only give ground for random conjecture; they might apply to any one. You are a friend to sincerity: speak on, then, without hesitation

Momus (addressing a migration problem): This is really most gratifying. Such encouragement is precisely what I should have expected of a king of your exalted spirit; I will mention the name. I refer, in fact, to Dionysus. Although the mother of this truly estimable demi-god was not only a mortal, but a barbarian, and his maternal grandfather a tradesman in Phoenicia, one Cadmus, it was thought necessary to confer immortality upon him. With his own conduct since that time, I am not concerned; I shall have nothing to say on the subject of his snood, his inebriety, or his manner of walking. You may all see him for yourselves: an effeminate, half-witted creature, reeking of strong liquor from the early hours of the day. But we are indebted to him for the presence of a whole tribe of his followers, whom he has introduced into our midst under the title of Gods. Such are Pan, Silenus, and the Satyrs; coarse persons, of frisky tendencies and eccentric appearance, drawn chiefly from the goat-herd class. The first-mentioned of these, besides being horned, has the hind-quarters of a goat, and his enormous beard is not unlike that of the same animal. Silenus is an old man with a bald head and a snub nose, who is generally to be seen riding on a donkey; he is of Lydian extraction. The Satyrs are Phrygians; they too are bald, and have pointed ears, and sprouting horns, like those of young kids. When I add that every one of these persons is provided with a tail, you will realize the extent of our obligation to Dionysus. And with these theological curiosities before their eyes, we wonder why it is that men think lightly of the Gods! I might have added that Dionysus has also brought us a couple of ladies: Ariadne is one, his mistress, whose crown is now set among the host of stars; the other is farmer Icarius's daughter. And the cream of the jest is still to come: the dog, Erigone's dog, must be translated too; the poor child would never be happy in Heaven without the sweet little pet! What can we call this but a drunken freak?

So much for Dionysus. I now proceed--.
... and Dionysus is in the main line of attack.

Silenus is from Lydia, that's nowadays the Western half of Turkey. Well, that's a foreigner of the perspective of the Greek Olymp.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia

Zeus attempts to get Heracles and Asclepios out of the line, but Momus has a lot of other examples and Zeus can't escape his arguments. Finally Momus presents a bill for decision in the assembly, that a bureaucracy has to be formed with a commission of 7 high gods, which should control all this wild development, and everybody of the gods should bring his papers with evidence for his parents and ancestors, if they could prove their value to be honored by temples and humans.

And the bill was like this ...
On the seventh day of the month in the prytany of Zeus and the presidency of Posidon Apollo in the chair the following Bill introduced by Sleep was read by Momus son of Night before a true and lawful meeting of the Assembly whom Fortune direct.
Whereas numerous persons both Greeks and barbarians being in no way entitled to the franchise have by means unknown procured their names to be enrolled on our register filling the Heavens with false Gods troubling our banquets with a tumultuous rout of miscellaneous polyglot humanity and causing a deficiency in the supplies of ambrosia and nectar whereby the price of the latter commodity owing to increased consumption has risen to four pounds the half-pint:

And whereas the said persons have presumptuously forced themselves into the places of genuine and old-established deities and in contravention of law and custom have further claimed precedence of the same deities upon the Earth:

15It has seemed good to the Senate and People that an Assembly be convened upon Olympus at or about the time of the winter solstice for the purpose of electing a Commission of Inquiry the Commissioners to be duly-qualified Gods seven in number of whom three to be appointed from the most ancient Senate of Cronus and the remaining four from the twelve Gods of whom Zeus to be one and the said Commissioners shall before taking their seats swear by Styx according to the established form and Hermes shall summon by proclamation all such as claim admission to the Assembly to appear and bring with them sworn witnesses together with documentary proofs of their origin and all such persons shall successively appear before the Commissioners and the Commissioners after examination of their claims shall either declare them to be Gods or dismiss them to their own tombs and family vaults and if the Commissioners subsequently discover in Heaven any person so disqualified from entering such person shall be thrown into Tartarus and further each God shall follow his own profession and no other and it shall not be lawful either for Athene to heal the sick or for Asclepius to deliver oracles or for Apollo to practise three professions at once but only one either prophecy or music or medicine according as he shall select and instructions shall be issued to 17 philosophers forbidding them either to invent meaningless names or to talk nonsense about matters of which they know nothing and if a temple and sacrificial honours have already been accorded to 18 any disqualified person his statue shall be thrown down and that of Zeus or Hera or Athene or other God substituted in its place and his city shall provide him with a tomb and set up a pillar in lieu of his altar and against any person refusing to appear before the Commissioners in accordance with the proclamation judgement shall be given by default.

That, gentlemen, is the Bill.
Well, looks a little bit too far off the meaning of the Fränkische lot book, I would assume.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#54
Steven at ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1102&start=50#p17036
noted (in some context to this thread):
And the association of donkey/ass with fools is one that goes back to classical times. Closer to our period is the tale of the donkey Burnel, in 'A Mirror for Fools' (actually written in the 12th century, but internationally popular for several centuries thereafter).

The tale of the Burnel, says the author, should be read as a Mirror for Fools, the reader invited to see in Burnel's follies their own.

Burnel wants a longer tail, to match his ears, and seeks out a pharmacist to help him, but ends up losing his drugs and his tail (which is bitten off by dogs). He then goes to Paris to take up an education, but after 10 years without even being able to learn the name of the City (still only able to say 'hee-haw'), he decides instead to go to Rome to see the Pope, in order to become a bishop. On the way he decides instead to enter a religious order, but after considering various orders decides instead it would be easier to found his own, taking the easiest rules from each of the others (such as not wearing breeches). Finally his master comes and takes him home, and clips his ears in punishment, which makes Burnel happy, for finally his tail matches his ears.

Speculum Stultorum (Mirror of Fools), or The Book of Burnel the Ass, by the twelfth-century satirical poet, Nigel Wirecker, otherwise known as Nigel de Longchamps.

In similar satirical vein was the Roman de Fauvel, Fauvel the Ass, whose name means nonsense, and is an acronym for seven sins, whom dame Fortune makes master of the house.

Image


Illustration from the Roman de Fauvel.

Sometimes he is referred to as a horse rather than an ass, here he is on stage behind which turns the wheel of Dame Fortune (play the video) :

http://www.interlude.hk/front/roman-de- ... ses-mouth/
Thanks, I didn't know this literature.

The "Roman de Fauvel" ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_de_Fauvel
"is a 14th-century French allegorical verse romance of satirical bent, generally attributed to Gervais de Bus, a clerk at the French royal chancery. The original narrative of 3,280 octosyllabics is divided into two books, dated to 1310 and 1314 respectively. In 1316–7 Chaillou de Pesstain produced a greatly expanded version."
So it belonged also to the time of the Templars.
I think, papacy was disputed then (and papacy was connected to the ass). Some time later emperor Louis of Bavaria had expanded fights with the popes and he was excommunicated. Nonetheless he had 33 years for his reign (1314-1347), excommunicated in 1324.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#55
At ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1105&p=18343#p18343
... a specific observation was done, which relates to this thread:
In the context of the Rosenwald Tarocchi a specific detail has appeared:

Image

Rosenwald Ace of Coins

Image

Assissi cards Ace of Coins

Image

Bolognese Tarocchino Ace of Coins - 18th century

Image

Bolognese Tarocchino Ace of Coins - 18th century

Image

Bolognese Tarocchino Ace of Coins - 17th century

Image

Bolognese Tarocco by Mitelli Ace of Coins - 17th century

Image

Bolognese Tarocchino Ace of Coins - 18th century

***************

Pictures from ...

Rosenwald Tarocchi

Andrea Vitali, Terry Zanetti: IL Tarocchino di Bologna (2005)

Tarotwheel.net (webpage of Iolon)
http://tarotwheel.net/history/cousins%2 ... chino.html

Catalogue of an exhibition in Milan:
“Giochi di salotto – Giochi
d’osteria” che ebbe luogo dal dicembre 2012 al marzo 2013 nel Palazzo
Morando di Milano. Alberto Milano (con la collaborazione di Giuliano Crippa)

***************

In contrast to the hypothesis, that the Rosenwald Tarocchi should be a Minchiate deck from Florence, the Hare and Dog symbol at the Ace of coins doesn't appear at the known Minchiate (as far I do know them, see Minchiate links at ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=420 ...).

On the other side we have the humanoid-animals as knights only in Minchiate, not in the Bolognese Tarocchino, although we see them on one of the Rosenwald sheets together on one sheet:

http://a-tarot.eu/p/jan-11/fra/rosenwald-sheet-11.jpg

I started to think about it. Minchiate was also produced in Bologna - we have evidence by later decks.

In the context of Franco's second article to the Rosenwald it appears as if the sheets were involved with the city of Perugia.

... I thought about the Hare-and-Dog symbol and searched for it with the standard research procedures. Nothing looked promising. Finally I remembered the thread "The Pope and the Donkey" ... there was something in it, a Dog and a Hare, the Dog connected to the number 20 and the Hare connected to the number 21.

Tarocchino decks had no numbers in their early versions. But from the rules we know, that there were high points for the Angel and the World and the Bagatello and Fool ... and the 4 Kings, of course. 8 cards instead 7 cards as usually. Angel and World have usually the number 20+21, like Dog and Hare in a very strange German lot book system, about which there is no evidence, that it was known outside of Southern Germany.

Bologna was in the early period of the Trionfi cards influenced by German cardmakers, as we know from our documents (especially a theft case in Bologna in 1459).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#56
I looked for the relevant pictures of dog and hare ...

In the printed edition:

Image


Image


In the Heidelberg edition with 32 elements:

Image


Image


A similarity to the Bologna Ace of coin motif is not given in both sources. The dog in the order A of 32-elements object appear at place 9 and the hare at position 30, so also no connection to 20 and 21.

But in order B we have dog and hare a position 29 and 30 (of 32), which is similar to 20 and 21 (of 22), both positions short before the end. Curiously the hare has position 30 in both orders. This puzzled me ... I started to compare the 22-Order, Order B and Order A, if there are other concordances (in relation to the position of equal figures).

22-Order|Order B | Order A

01------- 04 ------ 01 Wag (zodiac Waage/Libra)
new ---- 24 ------ 02 Gauch oder Guguck (cuckoo)
22 ------ 08 ------ 03 Esel (donkey)
new ---- 17 ------ 04 Falck (falcon)
16 ------ 19 ------ 05 Nachtigal (nightingale)
new ---- 22 ------ 06 Fuchs (fox
19 ------ 32 ------ 07 Hierß (stag)
new ---- 31 ------ 08 Per (bear)
20 ------ 29 ------ 09 Hunt (dog)
04 ------ 05 ------ 10 Krebs (zodiac Krebs/Cancer)
05 ------ 14 ------ 11 Leb (zodiac Löwe/Leo)
07 ------ 13 ------ 12 Junckfraw (zodiac Jungfrau/Virgo)
10 ------ 09 ------ 13 Zwihling (zodiac Zwilling/Gemini)
08 ------ 12 ------ 14 Visch (zodiac Fische/Pisces)
09 ------ 11 ------ 15 Weßrer (zodiac Wassermann/Aquarius)
new ---- 18 ------ 16 Sperwer (sparrowhawk)
11 ------ 15 ------ 17 Schutz (zodiac Schütze/Sagitarius)
14 ------ 16 ------ 18 Krannich (crane)
15 ------ 25 ------ 19 Adler (eagle)
new ---- 20 ------ 20 Hann (cock)
new ---- 21 ------ 21 Taube (pigeon)
12 ------ 10 ------ 22 Scorp (zodiac Scorpio)
13 ------ 07 ------ 23 Einhorn (unicorn, zodiac Steinbock/Capricorn)
new ---- 26 ------ 24 Awle (Owl)
06 ------ 23 ------ 25 Rab (Raven, 13th zodiac sign)
02 ------ 06 ------ 26 Wieder (zodiac Aries)
03 ------ 03 ------ 27 Ochß (zodiac Taurus)
17 ------ 01 ------ 28 Kamel (camel)
18 ------ 02 ------ 29 Sitich (parrot)
21 ------ 30 ------ 30 Haß (Hare)
new ---- 28 ------ 31 Aglaster (bird, Elster = magpie ?)
new ---- 27 ------ 32 Gaiß (goat)

*********************

30 (hare) and 20 (cock) and 21 (pigeon, ) are identical in Order B and Order A. In the 22-Order the dog just has the position 20, and the hare-emperor the position 21. That's perfect. The designer of this text seems to have had something special in mind, when he distributed the number positions in Order A + B. This likely had something to do with the Emperor position, and the way, how the emperor was seen by the designer.
Cocks (20) fight like dogs (20 in 22-order), and pigeons are a symbol of peace like the hare (21 in 22-order) is a symbol of love (for instance in the Venus Trionfi at Palazzo Schifanoia).

In the number comparison between 22-Order and Order B only the zodiac sign Taurus is identical. I don't have an idea for the reason.

In the number comparison between 22-Order and Order A only the zodiac sign Libra is identical. Libra was the first month for the Greeks in older time. In Minchiate Libra (No. 24) is also the first zodiac sign (zodiac from 24-35).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#57
I detected the series of Conradus Bollstatter's lot oracles online ...

https://bildsuche.digitale-sammlungen.d ... &nav=&l=en
... it has a lot of pictures. I start it at the page of the relevant 22 animals.

Here's the page with dog and hare:

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Added later: I personally would judge, that dog and hare of Bollstatter has similarities to dog and hare of the 32-animals- system.

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The manuscript with the 32 animals is given to the time of Ludwig III von der Pfalz by one researcher (Wegener), who had died in 1436.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_III._(Pfalz)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_III ... r_Palatine
Pope John XXIII once had been his prisoner.

If the opinion of Wegener is correct, the text must have existed before 1436 (Ludwig reigned 1410 bis 1436). Bollstatter wrote c. 1450, so later.

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http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit ... n2003/0078
[end of addition]
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I loved this picture (it belongs to another chapter:

Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#58
The Bollstatter manuscript has various wheels of Fortune. One of them has animals riding on the wheel, this picture is not close to the researched lot book part.

https://bildsuche.digitale-sammlungen.d ... &nav=&l=en
Full picture at this address



We see the participation of some animals, which interest us: Donkey (Pope), Hare (Emperor) and dog. I can read the texts only with big difficulties. The wheel is moved by the dog (so he has a deciding role), but the donkey seems to claim, that he reigns it. The lion on the wheel suspects, that the donkey is the reason, why he lost his reign to the wolf. I'm not sure, what the hare says and also not sure about the words of the dog.
Wolf, cat, monkey and swine are not part of the 32 animals used by the lot book, that we research.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#59
I took a sidepath to another system of Conradus Bollstatter. This (possibly) is related to the Fortuna wheel with animals shown in the post before:

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The description of the passage in the lot book collection of Bollstatter:
http://bilder.manuscripta-mediaevalia.d ... 00_JPG.htm

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The analyses of the text had come to the opinion, that the points 12. and 13. (which relates to the wheel of animals) wouldn't belong to the earlier lot book with 16 questions, 12 circles and 16 Kings and 16 groups of four.

I'm in doubt about this.

Here starts the lot book:
You can see all pictures in large at https://bildsuche.digitale-sammlungen.d ... &nav=&l=es

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On the 12 circles ...
(12 mountains
12 birds
12 animals
12 spices
12 plants
12 fishes
12 gems
12 apostles
12 trees
12 prophets
12 rivers
12 cities)
... follow 16 kings ...

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The last king is the king of Bohemia:

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After the 16 Kings follow the 16 groups with 4 items each:

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Then - so say the analyses of other researchers - the lot book is finished. However, it follow 2 other groups with 4 items: 4 angels and 4 cardinal virtues:

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... different to the design of the 16 pages before, but each with 4 figures.

And after this the wheel of the animals comes, that I presented already a post before, and after this an empty page, somehow a sign, as if here is the end of the lot book and not 3 pages before.

I analysed the 16 themes after the 16 Kings and before last 2 (4 angels and 4 virtues). One would expect somehow an order of 4x4, but it isn't, actually it has more of a 5x3+1 order (though the row looks a little confused).

The order, as it is given in the book:
(1) 135r Altväter (Patriarchs: Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Joseph)
(2) 135v pagan masters (Socrates, Aristoteles, Seneca, Alexander)
(3) 136r Evangelists (Mark, John, Lucas, Matthew)
(4) 136v Teachers (Gregorius, Hieronymus, Agustinus, Ambrosius)
(5) 137r Einsiedler (Hermits: Berchtoldus, Menrachus, Wernherus, Paulus)
(6) 137v Bishops (Mainz, Passau, Cologne, Trier)
(7) 138r weltliche Fürsten (Markgraf of Brandenburg, Duke of Brabant, Duke of Saxony, Landgraf of Alsace)
(8) 138v Grafen (counts: der lanndgrave, der burggrave, der grauchgrave, der grave von Ötingen)
(9) 139r Elements (fire, water, air, earth)
(10) 139v Gralsritter (Parzival, Titurel, Wigalois, Lohengrin)
(11) 140r Ritter von der Tafelrunde (Artus, Ruther, Tristan, Lancelot)
(12) 140v Winds (East, West, North, South)
(13) 141r Forests (Thüringer Wald, Schwarzwald, Kessler waldt, Böhmerwald)
(14) 141v Pagans (Tyttus, Kathon, Darius, Salygon)
(15) 142r Recken (heroes of the Nibelungen: Günther, Haym, Wyttig, Hagen)
(16) 142v Buhler (Minnesänger [poets]: Wolffram von Eschenbach, Moringer, Premberger, Fuß)

The grave von Öttingen (Bollstatter's commissioner) in the text gives the sign, that Bollstatter had here possibly "personal ideas".

The groups in a 5x3-scheme (as I see it):

A. (1 in the row of Bollstatter) Patriarchs (Jews) - (2) Pagan Masters (Pagans) - (3) Evangelists (Christian)
B. (5)Hermits - (14) Pagans - (4) Teachers (Christians)
C. (6) Bishops - (7) weltliche Fürsten - (8) Grafen
D. (9) Elements - (12) Winds - (13)Forests
E. (10) Gralsritter - (11) Ritter von der Tafelrunde - (15)Recken
--------
F. (16) Minnesänger - [17] Angels - [18] cardinal virtues

The category "Hermits" looks "wrong composed". Possibly once Jewish prophets were replaced by local Hermits. Jewish prophets would make sense at this place. But perhaps this was changed, cause Jewish prophets had a constant role in lot books.

The category "Grafen" looks like chosen for the friendship to the Graf of Öttingen, the groups Bishops + worldly Fürsten should stand for the group of Electors: But ...

The Markgraf of Brandenburg became "Kurfürst" in the year 1356.
The duke of Saxony became "Kurfürst" in the same year 1356.
Both actions likely had their context by the "Goldene Bulle".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Bull_of_1356

The Landgraf of Alsace (later Ludwig III. von der Pfalz; Ludwig III. was involved in the production of the lot book system with 32 animals) became "Kurfürst" in the year 1410. But ... it gives reason to think about the condition, that ...
Ludwig X. von Oettingen, † 1370, Landgraf im Elsass, [XVI 98], verkauft 1359 an
Johann von Lichtenberg, † 1365, 1345 kaiserlicher Kanzler und Landvogt im Elsass, 1353 Bischof von Straßburg [XI 73]
Johann II. von Vinstingen, † nach 1379, 1348 Landvogt im Elsass [XI 45]
Wenzel I. von Luxemburg, † 1383, 1354 Herzog von Luxemburg, um 1367/77 Landvogt im Elsass (Haus Luxemburg)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der ... _im_Elsass
... that a Landgraf from the count of Öttingen family once had been Landgraf in the Alsace, and somehow participated in an action, in which Emperor Charles IVs son Wenzel (later Roman king 1376 (1378) - 1400) became Landgraf of Alsace, possibly his first title (1367 ?).

From the title "duke of Brabant" it's not known, that it ever had the title "Kurfürst", but it's obvious, that Wenzel, duke of Brabant and half-brother to emperor Charles IV, was a very powerful man during the reign of Emperor Charles IV. Wenzel had in 1379-1383 a lot of recorded playing card bills in his account books. Wenzel was duke of Brabant in 1355-1383.

From this analysis it seems, that the lot book scheme might have been done in the time of Emperor Charles IV, perhaps in a time, when Wenzel (son of Emperor Charles IV, born in 1361) was already born. Charles IV made then a lot of operations to secure his succession.
Naturally Conradus Bollstatter around 1450 or little later had opportunity to change a few things in the favor of his probable commissioner, the current count of Öttingen:
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/oett/oett1.html
F2. Friedrich III, Gf von Oettingen, +23.1.1423; 1m: Elisabetta di Carrara (+by 24.5.1395); 2m: 1397 Euphemia von Münsterberg (+17.11.1447); all kids by 2m.
G1. Friedrich IV, Gf von Oettingen, +2.9.1439
G2. Wilhelm, Gf von Oettingen zu Oettingen, +13.4.1467; m.1431 Beatrice della Scala (+14.2.1466)
H1. Friedrich, Bp of Passau, *1453, +3.3.1490
There are twice Italian women in the close Öttingen family and there is an astonishing "bishop of Passau", born in 1453, especially astonishing as it is an oldest son (oldest sons seldom took a career in the church) and especially astonishing as a bishop of Passau had a position in the lot book beside the bishop of Cologne, the bishop of Mainz and the bishop of Trier (all 3 also Kurfürsten).
And this bishop von Öttingen became bishop in Passau (1486-1490) AFTER Bollstatter wrote his lot book.

Indeed there was an interesting bishop of Passau, who had a big role in early German literature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfger_von_Erla
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfger_von_Erla
He seems to have had influence on the author of the Nibelungen saga. And he had influence of authors of the Gral story. And possibly also on the stories of Ritters of the Tafelrunde. And all of these appear in the lot book. And there are poets (Minnesänger) mentioned in the text, which belong to his time.

So possibly the lot book had a very early redaction around 1205, then a later revival occurred in the time of Charles IV after his son Wenzel was born, and a later redaction happened Conradus Bollstatter with some favor for the counts of Öttingen. Likely the current count of Öttingen intended to remember on their earlier more important role in German history with this production.

The Öttinger dynasty had developed with some context to the Staufer dynasty (which had their original land possession near the region of the Grafstadt Öttingen), the castle Hohenstaufen has 90 km distance to Öttingen. Öttingen is near to Nördlingen, from which we have the first note about Karnöffel in playing card history. After the fall of the Staufer naturally also the role of Öttingen declined.

The Öttinger bishop in Passau ...
Friedrich Graf von Öttingen wurde am 2. Dezember 1485 zum Bischof von Passau ernannt und am 15. Februar 1486 als solcher bestätigt. Er regierte jedoch skrupellos wie ein italienischer Stadttyrann und verunzierte so die Reihe der Passauer Oberhirten. Als er 1490 in Linz am Kaiserhof überraschend starb, munkelte man von Giftmord.

http://regiowiki.pnp.de/index.php/%C3%96ttingen
He reigned in Passau like an Italian city despot. When he died in 1490 surprisingly in Linz at the Emperor court, some voices talked about murder by poison.

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Back to the lot book scheme:
I wrote ...
The groups in a 5x3-scheme (as I see it):

A. (1 in the row of Bollstatter) Patriarchs (Jews) - (2) Pagan Masters (Pagans) - (3) Evangelists (Christian)
B. (5)Hermits - (14) Pagans - (4) Teachers (Christians)
C. (6) Bishops - (7) weltliche Fürsten - (8) Grafen
D. (9) Elements - (12) Winds - (13)Forests
E. (10) Gralsritter - (11) Ritter von der Tafelrunde - (15)Recken
--------
F. (16) Minnesänger - [17] Angels - [18] cardinal virtues
In this (perhaps "more original") order the Minnesänger might have had a splendid role, possibly in the time of early Passau bishop with literary interests.
The last 19th figure (a wheel of Fortune with animal roles) reminds the other lot book with 22-22-22-22 scheme (Pope with donkey) ... in the earlier discussions it was also suspected, that this came from a similar region.

The 16 figures model might have developed later (in the time of Charles IV).
If we look precisely: 16 Kings and 4x16 others look like 16 trumps and 64 others in the Cary-Yale Tarocchi, just in the view of the scheme, which was used.

The lot book had also cardinal virtues:

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Bolte (1903) refers to this part of the text:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... Band_4.pdf
p. 311

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Bolte notes a second edition of this Losbuch in 1532:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... Band_4.pdf
p. 312

... I found it here:
https://bildsuche.digitale-sammlungen.d ... riff=&l=en
... though only as a project.

... also here as an object of a sale
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auct ... 2f00f24780
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... also here (English description)
https://www.vialibri.net/item_pg_i/4948 ... ie-bey.htm

Bolte's comment to this book:

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A heraldry sign of the counts of Öttingen in 1340
(according https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oettingen ... eschlecht) )

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... no dogs, as far I see it ...

A heraldry sign of counts of Öttingen in 1450-80 (the time, when Bollstatter wrote)


... a dog, if I interpret this correctly.

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The dogs look a little more like lions

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more like a dog

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more like a dog
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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