Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#11
mikeh wrote:Could that Pope in your first version be talking to Balaam's ass, a proverbial source of wisdom to people who don't obey God's commands, with Balaam in the background? (http://www.fisheaters.com/animalsbalaam.html). The ass doesn't look too pleased with what it hears.
Image
The name Balaam doesn't appear in the pope text. The key text to the pope (above the picture) is:

Wir Bebste seien ewr aller veter un herrn
Du sollst uns habe in guten eren
Dich hat der der Esel her gesandt
Des soltu werden geschandt
Gee hin du verfluchter knecht
Der Jacob wirdt dich weisen recht

"We popes shall be father and master of you all
You shall have us in good honor
You was sent by the donkey
For this you shall get shame
Go away, you cursed servant
Jacob will you give advice."

Hie sitzt der Babst un bey im stet ein prophet Jacob genannt / bey im ein Esel
(that's only a picture description: "here the pope sits and with him the prophet Jacob stands and with him a donkey")

Then follow the 22 4-verses-texts (one exception: the first has 10 verses), in which the donkey occasionally appears - I counted the appearance of the ..

donkey: 5
Jacob: 7
Babest (pope): 2

.. in the 22 verses. The single texts have no continuity between them, as far I see it. Not all oracles are bad, not all are good. The donkey appears, when he appears, to be "stupid as usual", not a wise speaking donkey as in Balaam's story.

If one attempts to get a meta meaning out of this: "You're stupid and an ass, if you ask the pope anything". As the theme (the question) of the 22th chapter is "Von der Liebe" (about love), it's definitely the "highest theme and the highest question" and perhaps cause of this one is extraordinarily stupid, if one asks about it. And especially: One doesn't ask the pope about love - or one is a donkey. Perhaps something like this.

I see, that this is not very satisfying.
The emperor gets the hare ... why? Hare have long ears ... does the emperor hear everything? Mind control? Hares are quick ... emperors usually traveled much.
Both connections ... Pope = donkey and emperor = hare ... appear to be ironic. But I don't recognize this for sure.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#12
Stupid as it is ...

The emperor has the theme/question: "Will a prisoner be released ...". He has Position 21 ... which in Tarot might be Nr. 20:

Image


I see "released prisoners"

**************************

Occasionally there are jokes: I see the theme/question: "About many women" ... this belongs to the King "im Morenlande". The Moors or Mauren are allowed to have many wives.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#13
Thanks for the one verse, Huck. It is indeed odd. At the end it says,
Go away, you cursed servant
Jacob will you give advice.
Who is this servant, sent by the donkey ? Is he the one in the picture behind the donkey, or is that Jacob? I know that the banner says "Donkey and Jacob," but then who is the servant? The servant seems to be someone different from Jacob. The servant follows the donkey's suggestions, so he could be Balaam, among others, who after the story about him listens to his donkey. How else does the donkey appear in the verses? And Jacob? And the servant?

Huck wrote,
The donkey appears, when he appears, to be "stupid as usual", not a wise speaking donkey as in Balaam's story.
This might be ironic. Again, it would be useful to see the context for the other appearances of "donkey" and "Jacob." Did you give all the verses somewhere? All I see so far is isolated words.

I remember seeing in one of Jung's books a medieval graffito of a donkey-headed man on a cross. Balaam's donkey might have been considered a precursor of Christ.

On the Wheel of Fortune, e.g. Noblet and Dodal, the figure going up sometimes is a donkey (the foolish donkey), while the one going down has a donkey's hind-quarters, or at least tail, and a man's head (the wise donkey). This is related to the Wheel in Ship of Fools, where the nature of the animal, and what it is composed of, is clear (http://www.associazioneletarot.it/The-W ... 2_eng.aspx, fig. 8). So a donkey might mean one thing in the first half of the sequence, and another in the other.

Image

Image


You may be right in saying that the donkey is foolish, so that the servant needs to stop paying attention to it and pay attention to Jacob instead. Or maybe the one speaking, the Pope, is the fool. As I recall, Jacob wasn't all that wise in the Bible. But I am not aware of any sayings about Jacob, pertaining to his wisdom or stupidity.

For Emperor/Judgment, your comparison looks good, although of course very uncertain. What does that make the 22nd card? World, Fool?

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#14
Stupid as it is ...

The emperor has the theme/question: "Will a prisoner be released ...". He has Position 21 ... which in Tarot might be Nr. 20:

Image


I see "released prisoners"
At the distant horizon appears a sort of relationship between the observed lot book and the Tarot system ...

Alright,
let's check it.

********************
"Haymlichkeit" appears twice, once as the "Haymlichkeit" of the man (6) and once the "Haymlichkeit" of the woman (4) ... I've checked the Grimm Wörterbuch and it's clear that "Haymlichkeit" could relate to sexuality (as "hidden sexuality"; "heimlich generally assiciates "mysteries" and things, which aren't public). In the common public opinion the Pope naturally would be very "heimlich" and the Popess also.
Nr. 4 in the lot book = 3 in Tarot, and 3 is a possible position for Popess, and 6-1=5 and 5 is the standard position for the Pope.

So best I sort all questions/themes together:

0=1. Ob ains an Wirdigkeit mag komen - If one gets honors
1=2. Ob ains gedancken vollend mugen werden - If one's ideas reach their goal
2=3. Ob es gut sey wider feynd kriegen - If it is good to fight against an enemy
3=4. Von frawen haymlichkeit - About "Hamlichkeit" of the woman ... POPESS
4=5. Von gottes huld und gnaden - About god's grace ... EMPEROR, good fitting
5=6. Von manne haymlickeit - About "Haymlichkeit" of the man ... POPE
6=7. Von gtrewn Lewten - About loyal persons
7=8. Von vil frawen - About many women
8=9. Von reichtum - about richness
9=10. Von langem leben - About long life ... HERMIT, perfect
10=11. Von deinem frewnde - About a male friend
11=12. Von deiner Frewndin - About a female friend
12=13. Ob es gut sej wallen - If it good to "wallen" (? to wander or to make a pilgrim's journey ?)
13=14. Ob es gut sey zu Ee greffen - If it good to marry
14=15. Ob eins sein schuld vergelten mag - If something is paid back
15=16. Von weisheit und thorheit - About wisdom and stupidity
16=17. Von herren lone - About salary of a master
17=18. Von sorgen - About sorrows
18=19. Ob eins verloren ding wider finde - If a lost object is found again
19=20. Von hoffnung - About hope
20=21. Ob ein gefangener erlöst mug werden - If a prisoner will be released ... JUDGMENT, seems suggestive
21=22. Von der libe - About love ... WORLD, seems possible

Two additional I find very suggestive:

4=5 Emperor has as animal Leo, the usual king of the animals, "von Gottes Huld und Gnaden" is a common formula for reigning heads.

9=10 Hermit, "About long life", that meets his theme in a perfect manner.

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I found 2=3 very disturbing: "Ob es gut sey wider feynd kriegen - If it is good to fight against an enemy", but then I considered the version of Trier, which starts with "wild man, then noble man, then "ritter"="knight" ... that's actually ...

0=1 something like a Fool (wild man, but also Fool in the Hofämterspiel)
1=2 the Unter, in the Italian version the page "without horse"
2=3 The Ober, in the Italian version with horse, so a "Ritter"
...
under the idea "Ritter" the consideration, if a war should take place or not, seems logical.

So I would think, that from 0=1 till 5=6...

0=1. Ob ains an Wirdigkeit mag komen - If one gets honors
-- Fool is correct, see Hofämterspel, a "person without Wirdigkeit, that means "without any merits for the moment"

1=2. Ob ains gedancken vollend mugen werden - If one's ideas reach their goal
-- Magician, low noble man with ambitions, at the start of his career

2=3. Ob es gut sey wider feynd kriegen - If it is good to fight against an enemy
-- Ritter naturally interested in fights

3=4. Von frawen haymlichkeit - About "Hamlichkeit" of the woman
-- the POPESS is likely wrong, it's just the queen position

4=5. Von gottes huld und gnaden - About god's grace
-- EMPEROR, good fitting, but as the Emperor appears at 21=20, just the king's position

5=6. Von manne haymlickeit - About "Haymlichkeit" of the man
-- POPE --- for the pope one has to see, that the animal is the "crow", that means, the figure, which isn't part of the zodiac, but splits the zodiac ... the Pope is at highest position 21=22, so we have to place here another "man in black", which should be "from the clergy", but "lower than the pope"

So far this seems logical and somehow "playing-card-deck compatible"

**********************

Observing the upper part (18=19 - 19=20 - 20-21 - 21-22), I see ...

18=19. Ob eins verloren ding wider finde - If a lost object is found again
19=20. Von hoffnung - About hope
20=21. Ob ein gefangener erlöst mug werden - If a prisoner will be released ... JUDGMENT, seems suggestive
21=22. Von der libe - About love ... WORLD, seems possible

... Liebe and Hoffnung, that is "Hope and Love" and this are suits in the Boiardo Tarot and Boiardo made this system according the 4 stoic passions - likely also unknown in Germany. Boiardo's other suits are Fear and Jealousy, the ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoic_Passions

... independent report of Wikipedia comes to the expressions

Delight (= likely Love for Boiardo)
Lust (= likely Hope for Boiardo)
Distress (= likely Jealousy for Boiardo)
Fear (= likely Fear for Boiardo)

It seems, that we have to assume

21=22 Pope = Love
20=21 Emperor = Fear (a prisoner surely has reason for fear)
19=20 = Hope ("About hope")
18=19 = "If a lost object might be found again ... which might be presented, if it refers to a 'lost lover', as jealousy

In this context "Hope" might be seen as "sun", and an occasionally "lost object" might refer to the moon, which occasionally is present and occasionally is lost.

***********

So also this final group "somehow " fits with the values, which are known from Tarot.

***********

But the rest? We've one lucky meeting with the hermit ... but for the moment that's all.

*************

I've expressed earlier in the analyzes of Karnöffel the opinion, that the first cards of Tarot have developed from Karnöffel ... I guess, this was here in the Meisner-thread
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=416&hilit=meisner

In Karnöffel the analogy to the Trionfi cards went till "7 card devil" = "6 card love " in Tarot. This astonishing analogy refers to the difference of card interpretation in Germany (Karnöffel) and Italy (Trionfi cards)
In this lot book version we have somehow only a parallel till 5:6 "crow" as a Pope replacement and then follows in the system ...

6=7 About loyal persons
... which could hardly serve as analogy either for Karnöffel-Devil or Trionfi-Love

7=8 About many women
... which could serve as analogy to the Karnöffel-Devil in Germany ... as we see Meister Ingold mostly engaged to attack the devil in the form of nice women in playing card context.

************

But this follows "not immediately" at 6=7 and so also isn't really suggestive as a parallel development.
Generally one has to draw the line, that there are some similarities between this lot book system and the later Tarot, but this goes not too far, that one could make up too much of it.
A hierarchical system 1 (low) - 21 (high) +0, as it is assumed for Tarot (well, it isn't 100% clear neither, but at least well believable), is more given by the (later) Trier version than by the system of the other 3 lot books, which definitely is rather old and for this under suspicion to have influenced the Trionfi card development.

As I mixed in the above argumentation the Trier versions with the others, the actual parallel between the system sfor the first parts is weaker than it looks.

More interesting (and somehow more believable) is the analogy to the stoic passions and for the "finish of the systems" ... (Pope-World-Love) - (Emperor-Judgment-Fear) - (Sun-Hope) - (Lost things-Moon)

***************

A further view at the lot book system ...

1-13 is used for the "zodiac + crow"
14-18 is momentary not clear, 5 places
19 "Lost things"- Moon
20 "Hope" - Sun
21 Emperor
22 Pope

5 undefined places, and after them follows moon and sun: Shouldn't one conclude, that these 5 places are used for the other "5 planets"?

For this observation we should take a look at another "more famous" German production (Augsburg c. 1530), the Splendor Solis, also constructed with 22 elements. Adam McLean analyzed this structure:
1. The Arms of the art
2. Philosopher with flask
3. The Knight on the double fountain
4. Solar King and Lunar Queen meet

The Seven Parables:
5. Miners excavating hill
6. Philosophers beside tree
7. Drowning King
8. Resurrection out of the swamp
9. Hermaphrodite with egg
10. Severing the head of the King
11. Boiling the body in the vessel

The Seven Flasks:
12. Saturn - Dragon and child
13. Jupiter - Three birds
14. Mars - Triple-headed bird
15. Sun - Triple-headed dragon
16. Venus - Peacock's Tail
17. Mercury - The White Queen
18. Moon - The Red King


19. The dark sun
20. Children at play
21. Women washing clothes
22. Sun rising over the city
The planets row takes the somehow strange positions 12-18, a place for the zodiac is not recognizable.

The planet-relation is clear, the gods are given with chariot in the upper part at the pictures:

Image


So the basic construction is "somehow similar curious". We have again "4 at the top" ... as in the Trier version, where we have

22 Pope
21 Emperor
20 Cardinal
19 King
---
18-12 ... then followed by 7 Kurfürsten (electors)
... well in Splendor Solis we have there the 7 planets

This indeed is rather striking and a "strong argument" - ... :-) ... I don't know, for what, but it's definitely a real "evolution context".

1. The Trier version definitely evolves in context of the other 3 more or less identical texts.
2. Splendor Solis uses the same ... (11-18) (19-22) - number pattern as the Trier version


Well, Splendor Solis is seen as an "alchemistical text" and the archbishops of Trier were strong men in the development of German alchemy (though I would assume, that the Trierer lot book text was made by Mainz interests mainly - but Mainz and Trier, that's very near)

A further look at the 4 last chapters of Splendor Solis ...

19. The dark sun ... as an equivalent to the Trionfi-Moon ("lost things, jealousy")
20. Children at play ... as an equivalent to the Trionfi-Sun ("Hope")
21. Women washing clothes ... as an equivalent to the Trionfi-Judgment (" the clothes are reborn by washing" "prisoners are released")
22. Sun rising over the city ... as an equivalent to World (The Sforza world also showed a city)

Again the 4 last symbols are "acceptable" ... this is the part, where all related systems are most similar.

**********************

I'm not ready with this ... but I think, this is stuff to think about.

... .-) ... Somehow I'm amused, that me at a complete different way find Mike's momentary major topic Alchemy ... communication indeed often has curious effects.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#15
mikeh wrote:Thanks for the one verse, Huck. It is indeed odd. At the end it says,
Go away, you cursed servant
Jacob will you give advice.
Who is this servant, sent by the donkey ?
I think, that it is rather clear, that the person who is addressed is the reader, who got this lot. In this case, the Pope is presented rather arrogant, not the "right person" to be questioned. But all Kings give a similar answer, sending the questioning person to the prophet. That's not special for the pope, that's just the system. Usually (? I haven't read all texts) the servant (the prophet?) is addressed as "Diener", in the Pope verse the word "Knecht" (which also means servant) is used , but addressing the questioner.

As example two other texts, just chosen by accident.

King of Spain
-------------
Ich bin der König von Spangen,
Der dich mir hat gesant, er wolt du werest erhange,
Wiltu aber genesen
So gee zu meine Diener der sagt dir ein ander wesen.

I'm the king of Spain
Who has send you to me, wishes, that you're hanged,
if you wish to recover,
go to my servant, who will you show more

**************

King of the Morenlande (of the moors - related to Pisces)
-------------------------------------
Ich ker mich nich vil an die Fisch
Ich wolt ich hets auff meynem tisch
Ich sag dir nit gern mee
Gee zu meinem Diener er tuts leicht ee

Ich don't care much about the fish(cause of pisces),
I wished I had it on my table,
I don't like to tell you more
Go to my servant and he will do

Is he the one in the picture behind the donkey, or is that Jacob? I know that the banner says "Donkey and Jacob," but then who is the servant? The servant seems to be someone different from Jacob. The servant follows the donkey's suggestions, so he could be Balaam, among others, who after the story about him listens to his donkey. How else does the donkey appear in the verses? And Jacob? And the servant?
There's nothing about Balaam.
Huck wrote,
The donkey appears, when he appears, to be "stupid as usual", not a wise speaking donkey as in Balaam's story.
This might be ironic. Again, it would be useful to see the context for the other appearances of "donkey" and "Jacob." Did you give all the verses somewhere? All I see so far is isolated words.
There's nothing about Balaam. ... :-) ..
The whole text is given at the link, which I already gave twice ...
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db ... 06&seite=1

Actually the thread started at the Lorenzo Spirito thread ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=442&start=40
... then, recognizing the high relevance of the topic, I decided to start a new thread.
For Emperor/Judgment, your comparison looks good, although of course very uncertain. What does that make the 22nd card? World, Fool?
22 (Pope) should be World, 1= Fool ... which is more clear in the Trier version than in the others - the Trier version has for the Fool position a wild man.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#17
Research to 5 planets on position 14-18 in the lotbook with 22 figures
************************************************************************************

http://www.archive.org/stream/abhandlun ... t_djvu.txt
Es sei bemerkt, daß das Mittelalter tatsächlich an die Existenz eines mächtigen Volkes mit Kranichhälsen und spitzen, ellenlangen Schnäbeln auf der Insel „Kypria" glaubte, wie uns die „Gesta Komanorum" ') und „Herzog
Ernst" belehren.
This translates with "It shall be noted, that the medieval times indeed believed the existence of a mighty folk with Crane-head at the island "Kypria" (= Venus island Cyprus), as it taught in the "Gesta Komanorum" and by Herzog Ernst."

The theme 14 in the system is called ..
13=14. Ob es gut sey zu Ee greffen - If it good to marry

Or better:
14. Ob es gut sey zu Ee greffen
If it good to marry
Prophet Olibrius
King Capodocia (central Turkey, Anatolia)
Animal: Kranch (crane)
.. naturally associating Venus. It's animal is the Crane.

We find the Crane as symbol at Tarot cards with clear erotic background.

Image


.. in the Alessandro Sforza Tarot
As king or land we have "Capodocia" (central Turkey, Anatolia), so near to Cyprus, however ... there is also a king of Cyprus, and that is found at another planet's position. Here are all 5 figures, which are under suspicion to be planets.
14. Ob es gut sey zu Ee greffen
If it good to marry
Prophet Olibrius
King Capodocia (central Turkey, Anatolia)
Animal: Kranch (crane)

15. Ob eins sein schuld vergelten mag
If something is paid back
Prophet Moyses
King Tartern (land of the Tartars ? Mongolia ?)
Animal: Arr (eagle)

16. Von weisheit und thorheit
About wisdom and stupidity
Prophet Isaac
King Lilio (?)
Animal: Nachtigall (nightingale)

17. Von herren lone
About salary of a master
Prophet Abraham
King Nobie (Nubia)
Animal: Kamelthyer (camel)

18. Von sorgen
About sorrows
Prophet Joseph
King Cypern (Cyprus)
Animal Syttich (parrot)


So a good time to observe the whole 5 figures in context.

First: we have 4 birds + one usual animal.

The zodiac group has no birds - but the interfering 13th figure, the crow, is a bird.

The last four are the stag (moon), the dog (sun), the hare (emperor), the donkey (pope)... no bird.

The stag is the Moon ... Diane and Aktaeon

Image


Diane is hunting goddess, cause rising and falling moon looks like a bow.

The dog is the sun ... the hottest days of the year are the "Hundstage" (dog days) since old Greek times, connected to Sirius, who announced the high water of the Nile. The star is part of Canis Majoris, accompanying Orion, the hunter, who was loved by Artemis, but killed by Artemis, as Apollo cheated her.

The connection Emperor - Hare is strange ... the connection Hare - Easter-Hare seems to be of a younger date. But in Byzanz the Hare was a symbol of Christ (so I collected) ...

Image

http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?o ... 12&typ=reg
Constantinople, c. 950 AD
Detail from a marble panel from Constantinople, c. 950 CE: an eagle fighting a serpent stands on a hare; some interpret the scene as Christ (eagle) carrying a Christian soul (hare) to Paradise.

The eagle definitely is a Emperor symbol ... as the eagle in this system already was given to a planet, so with some logic the hae was used emperor.

Well, this was a side-path ..

Let's stay on the planet-theme.

1-13: Zodiac: NO BIRDS ... but the crow is a bird
14-18: Planets: 4 BIRDS and 1 animal (camel)
19-22: 4 further animals, referring partly to sun and moon - NO BIRDS

Well, it's easy ... the stars (the zodiac) are fix, the "flying" moving objects at the heaven are the planets, so the PLANETS ARE BIRDS ... that's very trivial, everybody understands this. The moon is a hunter (the bow) and the sun you don't see in the night.

Why is just the camel between the birds? A camel is quick ... and it's used for traveling. A crow (the one exeption in the zodiac group) is usually a slow bird. So crow and camel are exchanged ... but why?

The zodiac has 12 signs, but the year has 12-13 moons. There are solar calendars (365.25 days) and there are lunar calendars: 7 in 19 years have 13 months.

That should be the reason ...

I don't now, what's precisely the mythological background for the crow-camel exchange is ... under suspicion is
Noah's ark - cause there appears a crow - and it would fit with "many animals" ... Or the story of Apollo, which tells, how the crow became black.
The result of the Apollo-crow story is the birth of Asclepius ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asclepius
... and Asclepius appeared then in the echecs amoureux text as one of the 16 gods (and in the Vatican manuscript of 1420 of 20) and as far I remember MikeH presented recently an Apollo-picture with black crow ... likely from one of his alchemical contexts.

Apollo ... tet of MikeH
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=655&start=0
Image


Apollo ... Vatican manuscript, also with crow
Image


Apollo with crow c. 480 BC
Image



Asclepius became the god of the physicians and many physicians became alchemists in the relevant time. .

eches amoureux
Image

http://classes.bnf.fr/echecs/feuille/amour/index.htm

Vatican
http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/book-echecs-2/p/reg11.jpg

*******************

Returning back to the 5 planets (birds) positions, I looked up the countries:
14. Ob es gut sey zu Ee greffen
If it good to marry
Prophet Olibrius
King Capodocia (central Turkey, Anatolia)
Animal: Kranch (crane)

15. Ob eins sein schuld vergelten mag
If something is paid back
Prophet Moyses
King Tartern (land of the Tartars ? Mongolia ?)
Animal: Arr (eagle)

16. Von weisheit und thorheit
About wisdom and stupidity
Prophet Isaac
King Lilio (?)
Animal: Nachtigall (nightingale)

17. Von herren lone
About salary of a master
Prophet Abraham
King Nobie (Nubia)
Animal: Kamelthyer (camel)

18. Von sorgen
About sorrows
Prophet Joseph
King Cypern (Cyprus)
Animal Syttich (parrot)


Solzmann (sorry, I see now, that I'd a name error about this man, "Solzmann", not "Sotzmann", probably Ferdinand Solzmann), who didn't see "Cgm 312", but got handwritten information of a Professor Massmann, gives the following row ... I added the numbers in brackets, as they became known by the studies of the text of 1520
Papst (22), Kaiser (21), römischer König (7), Franckreich (1), Engellandt (2), Schotten (3), Spangen (12), Arrogonierlanndt (20), Ungern (4), Cecilien(6), Schwydnitz (Schweiz - the text of 1520 gives Sweden)(10), Törckney (11), Babilonia (19), Marroch (5), Morenlandt (8), Armenien(9) , India (13), Cappadocye (14), Tattelyer (Dattel)-Land (15), Lylierland (Lydien)(16), Nobierlandt (Nubien)(17) and Cypern (18)
This now partly is the row, as it appears in the printed edition of 1520, which I see - and partly not. Naturally it's possible to control the real cgm 312, but actually, likely this is difficult, and I can't promise, that I will do it.

For the moment I see, that Karin Schneider (worked about cgm 312 c. 1970) started with France ... as the version of 1520, and not as Solzmann. The Fränkisches Losbuch, only in fragments, is shown "further reduced" (I assume). The order used in the picture show doesn't contradict the version of 1520.

If anything is correct with the version of 1520, then we would have 5 Eastern countries, which present the planets.
In the zodiac group we have mostly Western countries (India is not, but this is preceding the 5 planets, and Armenia not).
In the group of the highest positions with Pope and Emperor we have Babilon and Aragon ... this is curious.
If we think of "1520", this possibly might explain with the condition, that Charles V. was interested to have a Spanish part very high.

But if not ... then Aragon at such a interesting place is curious, and we have to ask, how old this text might be. Or ... where he did come from.
One meets often the suggestion, that many lot books had come from the Arabs or the Jews. Spain had been the interesting bridge to transport them. Spain was then, ca. 1200, dominated by the Almohad-dynasty.

Image


There's the curious detail in the book, that the king of Marocch reigns in the zodiac sign Leo ... that's an interesting position, as Leo is the king of the animals. So it is ... if not just accident ... a honored position. Then we have Sicily mentioned as a kingdom, Aragon at a very high position. Somehow a lot of Southern Europe, no Poland, no Bohemia.
What, if the text is an adaption made once for Alfons X. the wise ... for instance? This once had been Emperor, though more nominated as in reality.
Then some Sepher Yetzirah structure inside the composition wouldn't surprize.
He established Castilian as a language of higher learning and earned his nicknames "the Wise" or "the Learned" (Spanish: 'el Sabio', Galician: 'O Sabio') and "the Astrologer" (Spanish: 'el Astrólogo', Galician: 'O Astrólogo') through his own prolific writings, including Galician-Portuguese poetry.
It's known, that he invented games occasionally.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#19
IN WORK

...
Huck wrote:The link ...

http://www.archive.org/stream/abhandlun ... t_djvu.txt

... gives various arguments, that the camel was seen as the animal for the death sin Anger or Rage. I found this opinion confirmed in other web documents.
The examples given in the text are from Germany 13th/14th century.

Assuming, that under this condition the related crow-myth should have some connection to Mars and Anger, seems the correct conclusion.

Coronis, mother of Aesculap, is daughter of Phlegyas and sister of Ixion.
Phlegyas: The son of Ares and Chryse, mythical ancestor of the Phlegyans, a people of Thessaly. He was also the king of the Lapiths (also in Thessaly) and father of Ixion and Coronis. When Coronis became the mother of Asclepius by Apollo, Phlegyas became so angry at Apollo that he torched his temple at Delphi. Apollo killed him and send him to the underworld.
Alternativ:
While pregnant with Asclepius, Coronis fell in love with Ischys, son of Elatus. When a crow informed Apollo of the affair, he sent his sister Artemis to kill Coronis.
Elatus, the Lapith chieftain, is given as father of:

Ischys - killed by Apollo

Caeneus - whose father is called otherwise Atrax (?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caeneus
A great hero, who had changed his gender from female to male, died in a battle against the Centaurs. .."the centaurs piled pine-tree trunks (some say fir trees) and stones upon him, since he was immune to weapons"
He mutated then in a golden bird.

Polyphemus: reminds the one eyed giant of the Odysseus legend, but is assumed to relate to an Argonaut, who accompanied Herakles to search Hylas. Though, Hylas had other things to do instead becoming Argonaut:



Ampyx or Ampycus: a seer, father of the seer Mopsus with the nymph Chloris
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mopsus

************************

Well, at this point we should observe, that we analyze the system of a book of divination. So somehow it's NOT STRANGE, that we find Apollo and Delphi at a central position involved (crow and camel), and now also Ampycus and Mopsos as seers. ... :-) ..

In the myth of another great Greek seer, Teiresias, we have, that Teiresias changed for some time the gender (like Caeneus), turning from a man to a woman. Also we have, that Teireisias was blind ... Polyphemos is only "one-eyed".
So the we see in the children of Elatus a mix of "Teiresias qualities". Phlegyas attacked Delphi, Apollo killed him. Well, the story tells, that an earlier reigning divination system was fought by the cult of Apollo in Delphi, and, as history has it, it seems, that Delphi was successful.

At another line of the Apollo story we meet the content, that Apollo killed the Pythia ...
From a late myth that deviates from much older ones, when young, Apollo killed the chthonic serpent Python, named Pythia in older myths, but according to some later accounts his wife, Pythia, who lived beside the Castalian Spring, according to some because Python had attempted to rape Leto while she was pregnant with Apollo and Artemis. The bodies of the pair were draped around his Rod, which with the wings created the caduceus symbolic of the god. This spring flowed toward the temple but disappeared beneath, creating a cleft which emitted vapors that caused the Oracle at Delphi to give her prophecies. Apollo killed Python but had to be punished for it, since she was a child of Gaia. The shrine dedicated to Apollo was originally dedicated to Gaia and then possibly to Poseidon. The name Pythia remained as the title of the Delphic Oracle. As punishment for this murder Apollo was sent to serve at menial tasks for eight years. A festival, the Septeria, was performed annually portraying the slaying of the serpent, the flight, the atonement and the return of the God.
Pytho, the original oracle, is called a Gaia oracle. However, we have another competing story ... Kadmos, the Phoenician arrived in Theben ...

Image


... that c. 90 km distance, so relative far. However, Thessaly, which is here noted as a divination competition to Delphi has more distance. In Thessaly is the mount Olympus, highest mountain in Greece and a "natural focus" for the god's cult of Greece mythology. But as history has it, some clever early business men made the oracle temple at Delphi more attractive (and also the greater interest in the more populated Southern Greece). Near Delphi is the famous Parnassos and also a location Amfissa (or Amphissa), which might direct or indirect relate to Ampyx or Ampicus (the seer, son of Elatus, described above), though Greek mythology has it, that there was another girl for Apollo, Amfissa.
The region of Delphi has many mountains, not a good place to build big cities.

Theben, though in some distance, has the story of Kadmos and Kadmos killed the snake of Ares (not of Gaia) ... and Kadmos found this place, following the advice of Apollo (in Delphi naturally), that he should follow a cow, and where the cow would settle, there would be the right place for Theben.
With the google earth tool you can search "Delphi, Greece" and if you set as second destination "Theben, Greece", you get the "way of the cow", and if you observe the connected landscape (mountains), then you see, that the cow and Apollo had some logic: mountains are not so good for cow breeding. There's a long lonesome road (at least a longer part) between Delphi and Theben.
Cadmus came in the course of his wanderings to Delphi, where he consulted the oracle. He was ordered to give up his quest and follow a special cow, with a half moon on her flank, which would meet him, and to build a town on the spot where she should lie down exhausted.

The cow was given to Cadmus by Pelagon, King of Phocis, and it guided him to Boeotia, where he founded the city of Thebes ...

Intending to sacrifice the cow to Athena, Cadmus sent some of his companions to the nearby Castalian Spring, for water. They were slain by the spring's guardian water-dragon, which was in turn destroyed by Cadmus, the duty of a culture hero of the new order.

By the instructions of Athena, he sowed the dragon's teeth in the ground, from which there sprang a race of fierce armed men, called the Spartoí ("sown"). By throwing a stone among them, Cadmus caused them to fall upon one another until only five survived, who assisted him to build the Cadmeia or citadel of Thebes, and became the founders of the noblest families of that city.

The dragon had been sacred to Ares, so the god made Cadmus do penance for eight years by serving him.
So we have somehow a typical "doublette" in Greek mythology, a story, which repeats at another level. Apollo kills a dragon-snake, Kadmos kills a dragon-snake ... the snake of Cadmos is given to be at the "Castalian Spring" and if you use wikipedia, you get ...
The Castalian Spring, in the ravine between the Phaedriades at Delphi, is where all visitors to Delphi — the contestants in the Pythian Games, and especially suppliants who came to consult the Delphic Oracle — stopped to wash their hair; and where Roman poets came to receive poetic inspiration. This is also where Apollo killed the monster, Python, and that is why it was considered to be sacred.
Two fountains, which were fed by the sacred spring, still survive. The archaic 6th century BCE fountain house has a marble-lined basin surrounded by benches. There is also a Hellenistic or Roman fountain with niches hollowed in the rock to receive votive gifts. The Castalian Spring itself predates classical Delphi. The ancient guardian of the spring was the serpent Python, which was killed by Apollo in its lair beside the spring.


So ... either this is just a confusion, or Kadmos and Apollo "somehow" kill the same snake. Once it is a Gaia snake and in the other case an Ares snake.

What's a snake? A snake is a good picture for a row ... for instance of letters. Kadmos, the Phoenician, is suspected to have brought the Phoenician alphabet to Greece. Well, and this researched object, this divination system of the lot book, uses ALSO a row, and there is reason enough to relate it also - somehow - to the alphabet. Ranke-Graves promoted the idea, that there had been an 18-letter-alphabet before, which was overcome by the Phoenician import. He points to the 13-moons-year in this discussion.
Earlier I already analyzed for the observed system, that the disturbing crow inside the zodiac looks like the 13th month, which is only used in 7 of 19 years. Then I detected the 5 planets. 13+5 = 18 and that's rather similar to that, what Ranke-Graves suspected.
The story of Apollo and of Kadmos both point to "8 years" of punishment. That's naturally a relation to the Greek double Olympic year (= 2x4) with totally 99 moon-periods, 50 moons for one 4-year-period, and 49 for the following 4 years. 365.25 * 8 = 2922 days, 29.5305 x 99 = 2 923,5195 days, that was not very precise, but might have done it for some time. Later this Olympic system was replaced by the Meton cycle, with 235 ((19x12) + 7) moons in 19 years ...

365.25 x19 = 6939.75
and
29,5305 x 235 = 6939,6675

... with much less difference

In the story of the Kadmos legend the hero "sowed the dragon's teeth in the ground, from which there sprang a race of fierce armed men" and Cadmos caused them to battle with each other until only five survived ... the Phoenician alphabet had 22 letters, and when the Greek adapted it for their use, they gained 27 symbols (which they used for their counting system ... 3x9 for numbers till 999), but in their writing they only used 24 letters.

The difference between 22 and 27 is 5 and this might refer to the surviving 5 dragon-teeth-man.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#20
IN WORK

.... this isn't finished, but I've to stop for the moment ... this and the former article will probably change a
little bit, the theme is just "in research mode"

Alfonso X. the wise, and when he might have made the lot book
***********************
1255 feb. 4 ....
An diesem tage forderte pabst Alexander die schwäbischen grossen auf, den könig Alfons und dessen boten bei seinen bemühungen um erlangung des herzogthums Schwaben (ad acquirendum ducatum Suevie et quedam alia iura sibi in illis partibus ex materna successione competentia) zu unterstützen.
http://regesten.regesta-imperii.de/inde ... =%20pk2.pk

Translation: "At this day pope Alexander demanded from the Swabian nobility to help King Alfonso and his messengers to get the dukedom Swabia."

Bollstatter lived in Swabia, when he wrote his version of the considered losbuch of 1450. The other version is called "frankisch" (this might have been not too far away), the 3rd printed version (1520) was made in Landshut, a little bit northeast of Munich, 150 km east of Nördlingen, where Bollstatter had his origin.
The Trier/Mainz version, if we assume Mainz as origin, is 250 km NW of Nördlingen. Augsburg, where Bollstätter spend his later life, has its position between Nördlingen and Landshut. Some time later, 1530, we see a text with similarities (Splendor solis) appearing at Augsburg.

The year 1520 in Germany ... is definitely strongly influenced by the emperor/king election of 1519. In this year the Spanish-Flemish influenced Charles, grandson of the former emperor Maximilian, was chosen against his French competitor, Francois I. The helping hand at this opportunity had been Fugger (that's in Augsburg), who organized the money, which with the electors were bribed. The election took place at Frankfurt, a traditional location for king elections (near to Mainz).
Naturally the book market and its productions was influenced by political events. An old lot book, which once in old times had been made for another Spanish Emperor-King (Alfonso X.) would have been an ideal object to celebrate the new Spanish Emperor-King Charles V. .. just a good business, the book would sell well ... if it was not directly ordered by the new Roman king (and his party) as a tool for political propaganda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swabia
n the Middle Ages, the term Swabia indicated a larger area, covering all the lands associated with Alamannia: This included Baden, Vorarlberg, the modern principality of Liechtenstein, modern German-speaking Switzerland, and Alsace (now in France).

... The Hohenstaufen dynasty (the dynasty of Frederick Barbarossa), which ruled the Holy Roman Empire in the 12th and 13th centuries, arose out of Swabia, but following the execution of Conradin, the last Hohenstaufen, on October 29, 1268, the original duchy gradually broke up into many smaller units.
Friedrich II. had died 1250 and his death caused the socalled interregnum (1250-73), during which various attempts were done to get a new king-emperor, but none of them could finally succeed.

Fredrick II. ... - 1250

Conrad IV (son of Frederick, Roman king since 1237, presenting his father in Germany, then full heir of the Empire since 1250; died 1254)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conrad_IV_of_Germany

Henry Raspe (1246-47 ... anti-king after excommunication of Frederick II)
helped by the archbishop of Cologne, Konrad von Hochstaden

William of Holland (1247 - 1256) ... anti-king after excommunication of Fredrick II
helped by the archbishop of Cologne, Konrad von Hochstaden
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William,_K ... the_Romans
Although Richard was elected in 1256 as King of Germany by four of the seven German Electoral Princes (Cologne, Mainz, the Palatinate and Bohemia), his candidacy was opposed by Alfonso X of Castile who was elected by Saxony, Brandenburg and Trier. The pope and king Louis IX of France favoured Alfonso, but both were ultimately convinced by the powerful relatives of Richard's sister in law, Eleanor of Provence, to support Richard. Ottokar II of Bohemia, who at first voted for Richard but later elected Alfonso, eventually agreed to support the earl of Cornwall, thus establishing the required simple majority. So Richard only had to bribe four of them, but this came at a huge cost of 28,000 marks. On 27 May 1257 the archbishop of Cologne himself crowned Richard "King of the Romans" in Aachen; however, like his lordships in Gascony and Poitou, his title never held much significance, and he made only four brief visits to Germany between 1257 and 1269.
In December 1271, he had a stroke. His right side was paralyzed and he lost the ability to speak. On 2 April 1272, Richard died at Berkhamsted Castle in Hertfordshire. ..
After his death, a power struggle ensued in Germany, which only ended in 1273 by the emergence of a new Roman King, Rudolph I of Habsburg, the first scion of a long lasting noble family to rule the empire.
Ottokar was originally educated for the role of an ecclesiastical administrator. However, after the death in 1247 of Vladislaus, Margrave of Moravia, Ottokar's older brother and the heir of Bohemia, Ottokar became the heir. According to popular oral tradition, Ottokar was profoundly shocked by his brother's death and did not involve himself in politics, becoming focused on hunting and drinking. In 1248 he was enticed by discontented nobles to lead a rebellion against his father, King Wenceslaus. During this rebellion he received the nickname "the younger King" (mladší král).
Wenceslaus managed to defeat the rebels and imprisoned his son. Ottokar II held the title of King of Bohemia from 31 July 1248 to November, 1249.
Father and son were eventually reconciled to assist the King's aim of acquiring the neighbouring Duchy of Austria. The Duchy had been without a ruler since the death of Duke Frederick II in 1246. Wenceslaus initially attempted to acquire the duchy by marrying his heir, Vladislav, to the last Duke's niece Gertrude. That match had been cut short by Vladislav's death and Gertrude's re-marriage to the Margrave of Baden. The latter was rejected by the Austrian estates and could not establish his rule in Austria. Wenceslaus used this as pretext to invade Austria in 1250 – according to some sources, the estates called upon him in to restore order.
Wenceslaus released Ottokar very soon and in 1251 made him Margrave of Moravia and installed him, with the approval of the Austrian nobles, as governor of Austria. Ottokar entered Austria, where the estates acclaimed him as Duke. To legitimize his position, Ottokar married the late Duke's (Frederick II) sister Margaret, who was his senior by thirty years and was the widow of Henry of Hohenstaufen (who, ironically, had been engaged to Ottokar's aunt Saint Agnes of Bohemia prior to marrying Margaret). Their marriage took place on 11 February 1252.

In 1253, King Wenceslaus died and Ottokar succeeded his father as King of Bohemia. After the death of the German King Konrad IV in 1254, Ottokar also hoped to obtain the Imperial dignity for himself, but his election bid was unsuccessful and instead Richard of Cornwall was elected.
Konrad von Hochstaden (1198/1205 - 1261), archbishop of Cologne
very influential
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_von_Hochstaden
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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