## The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"; theme lotbook

### Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#71
Sorry, this form of explanation says not much to me, I prefer mine ...
I can see why that is and i also assume that you did not try very hard to understand the JPGs I made (I added one missed link though).

Going through your link to your idea ( viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1087&p=16695#p16695 ) I saw that you do not seem to understand how the Gemantic Characters are based on ODD and EVEN because when you coded them in your personal (wrong!) way you changed odd and even to 1 and 0 (zero!). Now nobody can understand what 1111 or 0000 means.

Also you leave out the popular names of each character what would make your personal choice to code a sign like
PEOPLE (POPULUS):
..
..
..
..
1111 or 0000 > how would I know which is what??

So you make a conversation about a difficult subject very odd and complicated but you still assume that it is me who makes this complicated (so it seems to me at least ... )

If you could clear that up - also with an edition in your linked post - it would be helpful for this conversation and other readers who come late.

Your assumption about the link between Geomantia and I-Ching is of course only feasible in a mathematical way and can not be proven by the meanings both systems attribute to the signs in each system that you try to connect with each other (only in a very rough model).
The time frame doesn't work also - neither back or forth.

But before we can go on you should clear up the formalities first please.

cu later?

### Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#72
Sorry, this form of explanation says not much to me, I prefer mine ...
I can see why that is and i also assume that you did not try very hard to understand the JPGs I made (I added one missed link though).

Going through your link to your idea ( viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1087&p=16695#p16695 ) I saw that you do not seem to understand how the Gemantic Characters are based on ODD and EVEN because when you coded them in your personal (wrong!) way you changed odd and even to 1 and 0 (zero!). Now nobody can understand what 1111 or 0000 means.

Also you leave out the popular names of each character what would make your personal choice to code a sign like
PEOPLE (POPULUS):
..
..
..
..
1111 or 0000 > how would I know which is what??

So you make a conversation about a difficult subject very odd and complicated but you still assume that it is me who makes this complicated (so it seems to me at least ... )

If you could clear that up - also with an edition in your linked post - it would be helpful for this conversation and other readers who come late.

Your assumption about the link between Geomantia and I-Ching is of course only feasible in a mathematical way and can not be proven by the meanings both systems attribute to the signs in each system that you try to connect with each other (only in a very rough model).
The time frame doesn't work also - neither back or forth.

But before we can go on you should clear up the formalities first please.

cu later?

... .-) ... as I said, I prefer my way ...

1 is understood as yang, 0 as yin (in my method)
A number of points made in sand would leave 0 or 1 points, if you reduce the point away in pairs. Geomancy uses 1 and 2 points, I-Ching an unbroken line and a broken line.

1111 "way", as it is one
0000 "folk", as it are many

### Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#73
I found another Dog with Hare ...

logs.bl.uk/digitisedmanuscripts/2012/05/from-boethius-to-john-dee-more-scientific-manuscripts-published.html

Lepus (star picture of Hare), close to Canis Major (big Dog) and to the hunter Orion.

https://de.pinterest.com/pin/416934877983675989/

### Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#74
Sorry - while I did compose this reply with additional remarks I was not aware that you went further on your own special path.
Please do not take this as an interruption of your contemplation - but since I think it maybe useful to other readers I'll post it and won't intrude further.

A number of points made in sand would leave 0 or 1 points, if you reduce the point away in pairs. Geomancy uses 1 and 2 points, I-Ching an unbroken line and a broken line.
shows where you miss(understand) the system(s) because if you "reduce" the counted (and so added) points "away" in pairs a line of points leaves you with 1 or TWO points!! Odd or Even!! Those 1 or 2 points (and NOT 1 or 0) are NOTED to compose the 4 Mothers & 2 Daughters - and in the same way the Grand Daughter (the answer to the question! > please see the 2 dropbox links below.)

Geomancy considers 2 points as STRONG what can also be noted for the oracle as ONE UN-BROKEN LINE:

These JPGs are from:
5-How the STRUCTURE of the 16 Sign is based on the 8-folded Star from the BEGNNING+2. Form
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zzabpvkfqp8e ... gxHua?dl=0

These JPGs are from:
6-Meaning is a matter of PERSPECTIVE
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7bn39pseo1uv ... Kd-Wa?dl=0

So even on this absolute foundation level of 1 element - line and dot - those 2 systems are diametrically opposed to each other and your idea that they are connected seems to stem from your misunderstanding of these fundamental defining fact that your thinking stems from:
Geomancy uses 1 and 2 points, I-Ching an unbroken line and a broken line.
1 point in Geomancy equals the UNbroken line in I-Ching &
2 points in Geomancy equal the BROKEN line in I-Ching.

What is - as I said above - YOUR misconception!

Why the 16 signs of Geomancy are based on ODD and EVEN I explained in the link ...

2-How the Geomantic ORACLE works
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/65099zo7i856 ... VqHma?dl=0

The I-Ching with it's 64 signs that each consist of 6 levels or "lines" and every line can have 2 possible modes of appearance (whole/strong/male or broken/weak/female).
These hexagrams (hexa... > 6) derive their whole meaning from the placement of each line (broken or whole) in the upper or lower 3 line cluster (trigram) because those trigrams (8 of them are possible and in themselves were considered to illustrate the 8 basic cosmic principles like:
Heaven, the Creative
Lake, the Joyous
Fire, the Clinging
Thunder, the Arousing
Wind, the Gentle
Water, the Abysmal
Mountain, Keeping Still
Earth, the Receptive

http://www.iching-online.org/iching-trigrams.htm
(A lot of easily understandable info there too!)

From these 8 trigrams the universe was build and to understand them is a complicated matter that forces one to try to understand the 5 principles of change first (often falsely compared to the western/Greek 4 elements) which demonstrate HOW ONE energy flows in a circular motion on 2 different paths (destruction or nourishment) THROUGH the whole system of the world/body/matter.
Acupuncture is derived from that too and the whole ancient Chinese medicine.
And scholars believe that those trigrams were the first strata on which the I-Ching was developed - but in ancient times used as an oracle of 8 signs.
As I said these trigrams consist each of 3 lines - and each line can be "broken" or "whole" but this does NOT mean for example: whole = good or broken = bad.

To interpret each sign of the 64 further the trigrams were also forced to work on other levels that you mention:
The CORE-trigrams which add (only in theory!) 2 MORE trigrams to the hexagram of 6 lines
These are the SAME structures as the above cosmic trigrams ONLY used in another thought-system.

http://www.no2do.com/synopse/en/i-ching ... a-hexagram

So no system of 16 here. Or did I misread your (to be corrected) model somehow? (<< this is now after your above post only to be considered a rhetorical question of course )

### Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#75
... .-) ... anybody with some logical understanding recognizes, that with the Kern-Trigramme-System the 64 symbols of the full I-Ching are reduced to 16. Richard Wilhelm wasn't very clear about this.

I note, that some speakers use the terminus Kern-Trigramme for the normal Trigramm. That's the object ...
hugua 互卦
'Interlocked trigrams' – This is the term usually given in English as 'nuclear trigrams', which refers to the two trigrams embedded in a hexagram in lines 2-3-4 and lines 3-4-5. They overlap, sharing the two middle lines of the hexagram. Some have translated hu as 'mutual', which isn't incorrect, but note that Karlgren said the character depicts two hooks gripping each other, so 'interlocked' is better. Could also be translated as 'overlapping trigrams'. For further details, see my notes on nuclear hexagrams.

..

Before Heaven nuclear hexagrams

There are two nuclear trigrams embedded in a hexagram in lines 2-3-4 and lines 3-4-5. They overlap, sharing the two middle lines of the hexagram. These two nuclear trigrams can be separated and combined to form a new hexagram, which is the 'nuclear hexagram' at the heart of the first hexagram. The lower and upper nuclear trigrams remain in lower and upper positions in the new hexagram.
When you take out the nuclear hexagrams from each of the 64 you find that you can extract only 16 different hexagrams: 1, 2, 23, 24, 27, 28, 37, 38, 39, 40, 43, 44, 53, 54, 63, and 64. When you take the nuclear hexagrams out of those 16, they reduce down to just four, namely hexagrams 1, 2, 63, and 64. If you try to take the process further, hexagrams 1 and 2 can only become themselves, and 63 and 64 alternate between each other. So the process is like a sorting machine for yin and yang.
Notice that the 16 nuclear hexagrams from the 64 are in pairs. 1/2 and 27/28 are complementary; 23/24, 37/38, 39/40, and 43/44 are the inverse of each other; 53/54 and 63/64 are both complementary and inverse. It's also worth noting that in the 32 pairs of the King Wen sequence the inverse pairs have an inverse pair of nuclear hexagrams, the complementary pairs have a complementary pair of nuclear hexagrams, and the pairs that are both complementary and inverse have pairs of nuclear hexagrams that are likewise.
The 'Before Heaven' sequence of hexagrams, by contrast, is in pairs that have the same nuclear hexagram. This is a consequence of the fact that this sequence is in pairs where only the top line differs, which of course is outside of the lines forming the nuclear trigrams.
http://www.biroco.com/yijing/glossary.htm
http://www.biroco.com/yijing/scan.htm

... I talked about. Richard Wilhelm speaks about them p. 329/330 and uses the terminus Kernzeichen "Hu Gua". These objects are very similar to the 16 geomancy symbols.

### Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#76
... anybody with some logical understanding recognizes, that with the Kern-Trigramme-System the 64 symbols of the full I-Ching are reduced to 16.
Sorry - I cannot go on with this style pf "discussion" - you use the wrong terms in different situations with changing connotations and do not even recognize it. Please inform yourself 1st on such a specialist matter before posting a nonsensical reply to that - in my world - ...
anybody with some logical understanding recognizes ...
... that conversation is futile.

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/ ... r-Trigrams

You are speaking about NUCLEAR HEXAGRAMS
https://www.reddit.com/r/iching/comment ... hexagrams/

Which are composed from the core-TRIgrams - and do NOT REDUCE the 64 HEXAGRAMS to 16 BUT ADD when you would like to interpret the achieved Hexagram (1 of 64) for your question for yourself and not by reading it in a conventional book on some deeper personally educated level line by line.

There are other methods to widen the spectrum of your own personal interpretation like contacting the shadow of your sign and more - every elevated method of interpretation is ALWAYS for defining more specifically by ADDING info to your achieved Hexagram (1 of 64) for your question that brought you to ASK the I-Ching.

### Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#77
I quote from the source, that I'd given ...
When you take out the nuclear hexagrams from each of the 64 you find that you can extract only 16 different hexagrams: 1, 2, 23, 24, 27, 28, 37, 38, 39, 40, 43, 44, 53, 54, 63, and 64.
... and I repeat (believe me or not) ...
everybody with some logical understanding lands finally in the recognition of the 16 signs, which are not hexagrams, but simply 4 lines with 2 alternative possible states as in Geomancy.

Sorry, the world has its confusions. Things often appear in a confused state. China had simply also a piece of the Geomancy cake, which is said to have spread at many places.

### Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#79

Here is how to construct a Nuclear Hexagram.

http://www.thetolteciching.com/blog/con ... hexagrams/

Yes, and it's trivial. The deciding part of this technique are the 4 lines 2-3-4-5 and that's synonym to the Geomancy code. The first line and the last line are stripped in this operation.

The greater mystery seems to be, why people don't see that.

### Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#80
Please Huck - you can not be serious!

This guy shows in all detail that the Nuclear Hexagram is a purely THEORETICAL CONSTRUCT that is derived from 2 OVERLAPPING core-TRIgrams (2 x 3).

This I-Ching System ONLY works with TRIgrams.