Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#31
This is a further unfinished post I'd in work during the last days.

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Informations to Jewish Calendar
(still active lunisolar 19-years-calendar with 13th month)

Basics to Jewish Calendar
http://www.jewfaq.org/calendar.htm

Hillel II, Patriarch (330-365)
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... illel%20II
Patriarch (330-365); son and successor of Judah III. Only in two instances is his name quoted in connection with halakot: in one, Jose b. Abin expounds to him a law; in the other, Hillel cites a mishnah to establish a law (Yer. Ber. ii. 5a; Yer. Ter. i. 41a). Tradition ascribes to him an enactment which proved of incalculable benefit to his coreligionists of his own and of subsequent generations. To equalize the lunar with the solar year, and thereby render possible the universal celebration of the festivals on the days designated in the Bible, occasional intercalations of a day in a month and of a month in a year were required (see Calendar). These intercalations were determined at meetings of a special commission of the Sanhedrin. But Constantius, following the tyrannous precedents of Hadrian, prohibited the holding of such meetings as well as the vending of articles for distinctively Jewish purposes. How difficult the fixing of the annual calendar consequently became may be judged from an enigmatic letter addressed to Raba, the principal of the academy at Maḥuza, and preserved in the Talmud. It was evidently written by a friend in Palestine who wished to acquaint the Babylonian religious authorities with the condition of Judaism in its mother country, and with the resolutions of a meeting held for the purpose indicated above. It reads thus:(the month of Ab; Sanh. 12a).

"A pair [of disciples], coming from Raḳḳat [Tiberias; see Meg. 6a], were apprehended by the Eagle [Romans], because in their possession they had fabrics from Luz [blue or purple yarn for fringes, the ẓiẓit]. By the grace of the All-merciful and through their own merits they escaped. Also, the burden-bearers of Nahshon [the diviner: the commission appointed by the patriarch] desired to establish a guard [an intercalary month], but the Arameans [Romans] would not permit them. However, the commanders of the gathering [leaders of the council] convened [another time] and established a guard in the month in which Aaron the priest died"

Almost the whole Diaspora depended for the legal observance of the feasts and fasts upon the calendar sanctioned by the Judean Sanhedrin; yet danger threatened the participants in that sanction and the messengers who communicated their decisions to distant congregations. Temporarily to relieve the foreign congregations, Huna b. Abin (doubtless with the approval, or by the order, of Hillel) once advised Raba not to wait for the official intercalation: "When thou art convinced that the winter quarter will extend beyond the sixteenth day of Nisan declare the year a leap-year, and do not hesitate" (R. H. 21a). But as the religious persecutions continued, Hillel determined to provide an authorized calendar for all time to come, though by so doing he severed the ties which united the Jews of the Diaspora to their mother country and to the patriarchate.

The emperor Julian showed himself particularly gracious to Hillel, whom he honored on many occasions. In an autograph letter to him, Julian assured him of his friendship and promised to ameliorate further the condition of the Jews. Before setting out for the war with Persia, Julian addressed to the Jewish congregations a circular letter in which he informed them that he had "committed the Jewish tax-rolls to the flames," and that, "desiring to show them still greater favors, he has advised his brother, the venerable patriarch Julos, to abolish what was called the 'send-tax.'"
Calendar (Jewish encyclopedia)
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... 3&letter=C
The Babylonian years were soli-lunar; that is to say, the year of 12 months containing 354 days was bound to the solar year of 365 days by intercalating, as occasion required, a thirteenth month. Out of every 11 years there were 7 with 12 months and 4 with 13 months.
136 * 29.5305 = 4 016.148
11 * 365.25 = 4 017.75
In post-Talmudic times Nisan, Siwan, Ab, Tishri, Kislew, and Shebaṭ had 30 days, and Iyyar, Tammuz, Elul, Ḥeshwan, Ṭebet, and Adar, 29 [=354 days a year]. In leap-year, Adar had 30 days and We-Adar 29 [= 384 days a leap-year]. According to Pirḳe Rabbi Eliezer, there was a lunar solar cycle of 48 years. This cycle was followed by the Hellenists, Essenes, and early Christians.
Solar years: 48 * 365.25 = 17 532
48 lunar years with 18 leap years: (30 * 354) + (18 * 384) = 17 532 ... very precise the same number

Lunar months in 48 years: ((12 * 48) + 18) * 29.5305 = 17 541.117 ... mistake (???)

Pirke De-Rabbi Elieser
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirke_De-Rabbi_Eliezer

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Added:
It's very difficult with this Jewish calendar ... many contradictions.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#32
Thanks for the information, on Fugger etc., Huck. I will study your two additional posts. In the meantime, I am still back on your Feb. 23 post, this time concerning the list. Huck wrote,
Haymlichkeit" appears twice, once as the "Haymlichkeit" of the man (6) and once the "Haymlichkeit" of the woman (4) ... I've checked the Grimm Wörterbuch and it's clear that "Haymlichkeit" could relate to sexuality (as "hidden sexuality"; "heimlich generally assiciates "mysteries" and things, which aren't public). In the common public opinion the Pope naturally would be very "heimlich" and the Popess also.
Nr. 4 in the lot book = 3 in Tarot, and 3 is a possible position for Popess, and 6-1=5 and 5 is the standard position for the Pope.

So best I sort all questions/themes together:

0=1. Ob ains an Wirdigkeit mag komen - If one gets honors
1=2. Ob ains gedancken vollend mugen werden - If one's ideas reach their goal
2=3. Ob es gut sey wider feynd kriegen - If it is good to fight against an enemy
3=4. Von frawen haymlichkeit - About "Hamlichkeit" of the woman ... POPESS
4=5. Von gottes huld und gnaden - About god's grace ... EMPEROR, good fitting
5=6. Von manne haymlickeit - About "Haymlichkeit" of the man ... POPE
6=7. Von gtrewn Lewten - About loyal persons
7=8. Von vil frawen - About many women
8=9. Von reichtum - about richness
9=10. Von langem leben - About long life ... HERMIT, perfect
10=11. Von deinem frewnde - About a male friend
11=12. Von deiner Frewndin - About a female friend
12=13. Ob es gut sej wallen - If it good to "wallen" (? to wander or to make a pilgrim's journey ?)
13=14. Ob es gut sey zu Ee greffen - If it good to marry
14=15. Ob eins sein schuld vergelten mag - If something is paid back
15=16. Von weisheit und thorheit - About wisdom and stupidity
16=17. Von herren lone - About salary of a master
17=18. Von sorgen - About sorrows
18=19. Ob eins verloren ding wider finde - If a lost object is found again
19=20. Von hoffnung - About hope
20=21. Ob ein gefangener erlöst mug werden - If a prisoner will be released ... JUDGMENT, seems suggestive
21=22. Von der libe - About love ... WORLD, seems possible

Two additional I find very suggestive:

4=5 Emperor has as animal Leo, the usual king of the animals, "von Gottes Huld und Gnaden" is a common formula for reigning heads.

9=10 Hermit, "About long life", that meets his theme in a perfect manner.

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I found 2=3 very disturbing: "Ob es gut sey wider feynd kriegen - If it is good to fight against an enemy", but then I considered the version of Trier, which starts with "wild man, then noble man, then "ritter"="knight" ... that's actually ...

0=1 something like a Fool (wild man, but also Fool in the Hofämterspiel)
1=2 the Unter, in the Italian version the page "without horse"
2=3 The Ober, in the Italian version with horse, so a "Ritter"
...
under the idea "Ritter" the consideration, if a war should take place or not, seems logical.

So I would think, that from 0=1 till 5=6...

0=1. Ob ains an Wirdigkeit mag komen - If one gets honors
-- Fool is correct, see Hofämterspel, a "person without Wirdigkeit, that means "without any merits for the moment"

1=2. Ob ains gedancken vollend mugen werden - If one's ideas reach their goal
-- Magician, low noble man with ambitions, at the start of his career

2=3. Ob es gut sey wider feynd kriegen - If it is good to fight against an enemy
-- Ritter naturally interested in fights

3=4. Von frawen haymlichkeit - About "Hamlichkeit" of the woman
-- the POPESS is likely wrong, it's just the queen position

4=5. Von gottes huld und gnaden - About god's grace
-- EMPEROR, good fitting, but as the Emperor appears at 21=20, just the king's position

5=6. Von manne haymlickeit - About "Haymlichkeit" of the man
-- POPE --- for the pope one has to see, that the animal is the "crow", that means, the figure, which isn't part of the zodiac, but splits the zodiac ... the Pope is at highest position 21=22, so we have to place here another "man in black", which should be "from the clergy", but "lower than the pope"

So far this seems logical and somehow "playing-card-deck compatible"
I would think that the 3=4 position would correspond to the tarot EMPRESS. The "secret of women" might be pregnancy, which is the Empress's main job, producing heirs. O'Neill maintains, and I agree, that the alchemical queen and king at the beginning of the work correspond to EMPRESS and EMPEROR in tarot, because of their early place in the sequence. Then the alchemical emperor and empress appear at the end of the alchemical sequence, along with the Pope, he says (I am not so sure about that last, the alchemical pope, but maybe so), which is where they also appear in the lotbook. O'Neill also says that the alchemical queen corresponds to the POPESS as well as the EMPRESS. I would say rather that the POPESS isn't differentiated from the EMPRESS sometimes in alchemy--and probably also in the lot books. (Other times the tarot POPESS does have a clear correspondence, to alchemy's Soror or a female guide-figure.)

It also strikes me that the 6=7 might well be LOVE after all. Loyalty is the proof of love, from spouses to leige lords. Then 7=8 might be Temperance, which is what one needs if presented with "many women." I notice that there are a lot of pairs in the sequence, not always consecutive but at least close. So we have the two secrets, the two friends. And Loyalty/Temperance, two love-related virtues.

But then there is the problem, if one of the cardinal virtues is there, there should be others. So perhaps "long life" or "wisdom and stupidity" corresponds to Prudence/HERMIT, the Ritter embodies FORTITUDE, and "something paid back" to JUSTICE. Or JUSTICE could be included in the 20=21 "prisoner release." In any case, the other virtues are there in the sequence, although not in anything like their placement in the tarot sequence.

"About richness" strikes me as about the WHEEL OF FORTUNE, for obvious reasons.

Another pair is wandering vs. marrying. But I don't know any tarot cards for these.

One other thing, about the Emperor's hare: the hare could be the human souls at Judgment Day, when the King of Kings decides who to release, analogous to the Emperor's pardons of people in his ordinary jails.

That's all for now. I need to study your posts some more.

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#33
mikeh wrote:Thanks for the information, on Fugger etc., Huck. I will study your two additional posts. In the meantime, I am still back on your Feb. 23 post, this time concerning the list. Huck wrote,
I would think that the 3=4 position would correspond to the tarot EMPRESS. The "secret of women" might be pregnancy, which is the Empress's main job, producing heirs. O'Neill maintains, and I agree, that the alchemical queen and king at the beginning of the work correspond to EMPRESS and EMPEROR in tarot, because of their early place in the sequence. Then the alchemical emperor and empress appear at the end of the alchemical sequence, along with the Pope, he says (I am not so sure about that last, the alchemical pope, but maybe so), which is where they also appear in the lotbook. O'Neill also says that the alchemical queen corresponds to the POPESS as well as the EMPRESS. I would say rather that the POPESS isn't differentiated from the EMPRESS sometimes in alchemy--and probably also in the lot books. (Other times the tarot POPESS does have a clear correspondence, to alchemy's Soror or a female guide-figure.)
I've to explain (again, I think), that this thread is made by "living research", I was myself taken by surprise with the discovery of the Trier library text about the "Losbuch Moselfranken", which was explained to have a correlation between the Fränkisches Losbuch (which I didn't know), the printed version of 1520 (which I also didn't know) and cgm 312 (Bollstatter's version) ... and this I did already know and I had estimated it of possibly high value in the Tarot history research, but before I didn't know of any relationship to other Losbuch-versions.

I perceived some similarity between Bollstatter's version (22-22-22-22-scheme) and that of Lorenzo Spirito (20-20-20-20-scheme), I suspected even, that Lorenzo Spirito got some German influence (Solzmann had noted, that possibly a first version of Spirito's text was written and published in 1473, and just in 1473 Bollstatter stopped his Losbuch work); Bollstatter has an undated "journey to Jerusalem" in his biography and 1473 might have been the time, when he crossed Italy.
Isn't this a little bit crazy, that we find the "mysterious year 1473" ALSO in the Salomon Trismosin biography and also in the "possibly wrong" (possibly legendary) biography of Jacob Fugger, so inside the Splendor Solis context, which with some evidence proved to have a surprising relationship to the researched lot book?

Fugger was in Augsburg, Bollstatter was in Augsburg. If the 14 years old Jacob Fugger not always had been in the suspected cloister, but also made an "education journey" to Italy (which might explain the contradictions in his biographical data), wouldn't it be a logical context if he was member of a "group of travelers from Augsburg" ... well, Bollstatter's Jerusalem journey is a very vague point.

Bollstatter (and his many other names) is a curiosity, he was discovered as "rather important" recently, not long ago ... just his many pseudonyms made his detection difficult.

The earlier Fugger family had two strings, one for the early time a successful one, but later bankrupt, the other later very successful. The earlier successful part had already in first half of 15th century contacts in Italy, mainly Venice. Textile business.
It also strikes me that the 6=7 might well be LOVE after all. Loyalty is the proof of love, from spouses to leige lords. Then 7=8 might be Temperance, which is what one needs if presented with "many women." I notice that there are a lot of pairs in the sequence, not always consecutive but at least close. So we have the two secrets, the two friends. And Loyalty/Temperance, two love-related virtues.

But then there is the problem, if one of the cardinal virtues is there, there should be others. So perhaps "long life" or "wisdom and stupidity" corresponds to Prudence/HERMIT, the Ritter embodies FORTITUDE, and "something paid back" to JUSTICE. Or JUSTICE could be included in the 20=21 "prisoner release." In any case, the other virtues are there in the sequence, although not in anything like their placement in the tarot sequence.

"About richness" strikes me as about the WHEEL OF FORTUNE, for obvious reasons.

Another pair is wandering vs. marrying. But I don't know any tarot cards for these.

One other thing, about the Emperor's hare: the hare could be the human souls at Judgment Day, when the King of Kings decides who to release, analogous to the Emperor's pardons of people in his ordinary jails.

That's all for now. I need to study your posts some more.
The lot book is definitely older than that, what we know of the Trionfi card development. And the Trionfi card development definitely took influence of Petrarca, and that isn't in the lot book. And the Trionfi cards weren't in their beginning formed according a 22-scheme or 22-row.

I think, that similarity for the begin and especially the end is given, but likely not for the middle.

I think, the best way is to understand the lot book in its own existence first ... compatibility with other systems develops (possibly, if it is given), if one knows, what one is talking about.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#34
I am finding it very exciting to be reading this "living research." As well as enlarging my perspective, it gives me a chance to ask questions when I don't follow something, especially in astrology, which is something I don't know a lot about.

Huck wrote
Saturn = 21 ... Saturday
Sun = 15 ... (exchanged with Moon) ... Sunday
Moon = 18 ... (exchanged with Sun) ... Monday
Mars = 12 + 9 ... Tuesday
Mercury = 6 ... Wednesday
Jupiter = 3 ... Thursday
.... ... Venus outside of the row ... Friday ... perhaps Venus was considered as "nothing" (= 0) ?

If we would exchange Moon with sun, the "overlapping" at 12-13 wouldn't work. However, if we turn the Chaldean row upside down, then ...

15 Moon (moved from 18 to 15)
16 Mercury
17 Venus
18 Sun (moved from 15 to 18)
19 Mars
20 Jupiter
21 Saturn

... the system would have then free places at 14 and 22 (with 13 zodiac signs) ...

... and free places at 13,14 and 22 (with 12 zodiac signs)
So now I get to ask my beginner-questions.

I didn't follow where giving 19 to Mars and 20 to Jupiter came from, since in the text (fol. 3) these numbers both were assigned to Saturn.

I guess I follow where Mercury got 16: it is part of that three way trade you postulate, right? I had a hard time with that, since Aphrodite isn't plausibly "owned" by Jupiter: she's his daughter, in one aspect (Aphrodite Pandemos, and Uranus's [edited from "Saturn's"--not what I meant] "foam," in the other (Aphrodite Urania). But she's pretty independent.

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#35
Well, it was Aschermittwoch .. Ash Wednesday ... and I replied some hours to your post and saw it disappear through some computer error ... so I'm a little frustrated.

So I keep it short:
mikeh wrote:I didn't follow where giving 19 to Mars and 20 to Jupiter came from, since in the text (fol. 3) these numbers both were assigned to Saturn.

I guess I follow where Mercury got 16: it is part of that three way trade you postulate, right? I had a hard time with that, since Aphrodite isn't plausibly "owned" by Jupiter: she's his daughter, in one aspect (Aphrodite Pandemos, and Saturn's "foam," in the other (Aphrodite Urania). But she's pretty independent.
I was just playing with possibilities, nowhere is 19=Mars and 20=Jupiter. Just searching about a reason for sun=15 and moon=18

http://www.wisdomportal.com/BirthOfVenus.html
Plato mentions two— Venus Urania the daughter of Uranus, and Venus Popularia the daughter of Jupiter and Dione. Cicero speaks of four, a daughter of Coelus and Light [whow, of this I didn't know ... remember our Koios and Polus and Fulgentius operation] one sprung from the froth of the sea, a third, daughter of Jupiter and the Nereid Dione, and a fourth born at Tyre, and the same as the Astarte of the Syrians.
Dione ... oracle goddess in Dodona
http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanisDione.html

For the system:
-------------------
1. Old system: 3-4 seasons, 12 months

Mars = Winter 4 months, Scorpio till Aquarius
Mercury = Spring = 2 months, Pisces + Aries
Jupiter = Summer = 4 months, Taurus till Leo
Mercury = Autumn = 2 months, Virgo + Libra
4 seasons
... but that's a side path version, I would assume

2. New system: 13 months

The genital drops in the water ...

Image


The figure right is Primavera = Spring

Mars has Aquarius, Venus has Piscis in the system. That's the slow walk from Winter to Spring ... at least in Greece that's really spring.

The genital dropped in the water, perhaps on Nr. 8 Pisces
... which might be considered as number "O"
Saturn = 21 ... Saturday
Sun = 15 ... (exchanged with Moon) ... Sunday
Moon = 18 ... (exchanged with Sun) ... Monday
Mars = 12 + 9 ... Tuesday
Mercury = 6 ... Wednesday
Jupiter = 3 ... Thursday
.... ... Venus outside of the row ... Friday ... perhaps Venus was considered as "nothing" (= 0) ?
Venus went to O (Hypothesis)

Nr. 1 in the system is Libra ... and Libra is reigned by Hephaistos in the astrology of Manilius.

Libra is the begin of autumn and the Greek year started with autumn, so Libra (likely) = first month

Hephaistos was a replacement figure in the Olympic 12, and Hestia (Vesta) was a figure, which was replaced.

Hestia had to do with Fire, Hephaistos had to with Fire.

This looks, as if Hestia was the "mother" of Hephaistos, but Hestia was signified as virgin, so she couldn't have a son. Hephaistos was so born by Hera, but without father.

Birth by Parthogenisis ... this also happened in Gods-genealogies based on mother goddesses, often planted before Gaia-Uranos-Pontos became active. For instance Eurynome and Ophion, but also others.

Hestia became the oldest daughter of Kronos. So Hestia was always honored as the first ... and the last.

Libra is at the start in this system
Libra is at the start of the zodiac in Minchiate (Nr. 24. in Minchiate, zodiac is 24-35)

Libra is at the end of the 3rd group in the Lorenzo Spirito book
Hestia (alias Caritas with fire) is at the end of the first 19 in Minchiate (after her follow 4 elements, 12 zodiac signs and 5 Aries. After 19 Caritas (alias Hestia) follows 20 Fire in Minchiate.

Hestia - Hephaistos somehow are the "oldest gods" before the others. Hephaistos presents Ophion, when he gets his only son King Erichthonius of Athen, who was a half dragon. Possibly similar to this "knight of cups" in Minchiate ...

http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks07/d05115/d05115hC.jpg

Hephaistos attempted to rape Athena, but Athena turned away, and Hephaisos fructified the earth (Gaia) ... and so Erichthonius was born. Likely Hephaistos = Ophion also had played a role for the motif of the Dragon-king of Athen.
Otherwise we have, that Hephaistos couldn't get children ... though married to Aphrodite.

How could Hephaistos = Uranos get children, when he had lost his genital?

Hephaistos is also related to Prometheus, cause Prometheus brought the fire to mankind. In Athen they had Hephaistos-Prometheus temples. Prometheus goes back to Iapetos (another foe of the Olymp) and for Iapetos (married to Asia) we have possibly some relation to monotheism somehow in the region of Phoenicia/Kannan/Israel. Monotheism means 1 god and not many, but the Greek preferred many. So Libra = Hephaistos was Nr. 1.
Hestia, also Nr. 1, once in sleep was sexually attacked by Priapos with the very big genital, but an ass cried, and Priapos had trouble to escape. And in the lot book system we have Venus somehow as Nr. O as the big genital and also Hestia and Hephaistos as Nr. 1 and at the end of it we have the ass-donkey as Nr. 22.

The ass-donkey was associated to Seth in Egyptia and Seth to Typhon (another foe of the gods of Olymp). Typhon was tamed, when Zeus buried him below the Aetna ... then Hephaistos and his smiths were used to guard Typhon, perhaps expressing, that the Olympic version of Typhon and other foreign deities - Hephaistos - were a good solution for the real problems of the world (with its fearful natural desasters).
In the myth of Typhon the Greek gods flee to Egyptia and change their outfit into animal design. Hephaistos becomes in this scene an "Ox" .. , likely expressing, that Hephaistos = Uranos was a castrated god, perhaps also expressing also the existence of knowledge, that aleph = Ox (first letter of Phoenician alphabeth) was just the first, in other words Hephaistos-Hestia at position 1.

Inside this jungle of myth we find also

Pseudo-Hyginus, Astronomica 2. 30 :
"Pisces. Diognetus Erythraeus says that once Venus [Aphrodite] and her son Cupid [Eros] came in Syria to the river Euphrates. There Typhon, of whom we have already spoken, suddenly appeared. Venus and her son threw themselves into the river and there changed their forms to fishes, and by so doing this escaped danger."

Here we learn, that Venus wasn't Egyptian, but Eastern goddess (Dea Syria, at the river Euphrates) ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Dea_Syria
... and at this place we learn "De Dea Syria describes the orgiastic luxury of the sanctuary and the tank of sacred fish ..." and ".. the worship was of a phallic character, votaries offering little male figures of wood and bronze. There were also huge phalli set up like obelisks before the temple, which were ceremoniously climbed once a year and decorated ... "

Also we learn, that Venus and Eros became "Pisces".
Venus belongs to "Pisces" in the lot book system ... as number 8 .

Going now back to the number riddle ...
Saturn = 21 ... Saturday
Sun = 15 ... (exchanged with Moon) ... Sunday
Moon = 18 ... (exchanged with Sun) ... Monday
Mars = 12 + 9 ... Tuesday
Mercury = 6 ... Wednesday
Jupiter = 3 ... Thursday
.... ... Venus outside of the row ... Friday ... perhaps Venus was considered as "nothing" (= 0) ?
The genital dropped from heaven (Nr. 22) to the deepest ground (0) and with this love entered the world (and so caused movement inside the scheme; movement means "Mythology" and "stories")

Venus married there (at 0) Hephaistos (a strange "imported figure", actually meaning something essential), then she raised from 0 to 8, meeting Jupiter (number 3) (causing hím to have many love adventurers, but not with Venus), meeting Mercury (that resulting in Hermaphroditos - a person with two sexes) and than taking a rest below of Mars (number 9, Venus took 8)

The relation between 8 and 9 is, that 9 is the center of an 8-chapter-circle ... for instance in I-Ching or in the Saturn-square. In this situation (it was early morning) Mars slept too long ... Helios got knowledge about this adultery and informed Hephaistos and Hephaistos took a snapshot for evidence (in other words he throw his very clever artful net and fixed the situation). And what we see in the lot book system, is the snapshot: Venus = 8 and Pisces and Mars = Aquarius = 9, which in essence nothing else means as "it is springtime" ... which is correlated cause of mathematical conditions to early morning (which is a state between darkness=Selene=Moon and light=Helios-Sun). As sun and moon change their reign daily (Helios is up at day and down in the night and Selene vice versa) we have in this early-morning-version Selene still up (18) and sun still down (at 15).
The myth is very precise in its conclusion, that Ares (who reigns the dark time) sleeps to long and so is captured by Helios and Hephaistos.

That's the change from earlier model (with 4 seasons and 3 gods) to a later model, Uranus-Venus drops and creates the problem of love in the world: All three earlier participating gods (Mars-Mercury-Jupiter) are touched with this question, and also fourth and that is Hephaistos with very special relations.

**************
19 Caritas - Minchiate with Hestia - Fire
20 - Fire - Minchiate
20 dog - Sirius - Lot book

Image


I've to do something else for the moment and weekend ...
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#36
Huck wrote,
The ass-donkey was associated to Seth in Egyptia and Seth to Typhon (another foe of the gods of Olymp). Typhon was tamed, when Zeus buried him below the Aetna ... then Hephaistos and his smiths were used to guard Typhon, perhaps expressing, that the Olympic version of Typhon and other foreign deities - Hephaistos - were a good solution for the real problems of the world (with its fearful natural desasters).
In the myth of Typhon the Greek gods flee to Egyptia and change their outfit into animal design. Hephaistos becomes in this scene an "Ox" .. , likely expressing, that Hephaistos = Uranos was a castrated god, perhaps also expressing also the existence of knowledge, that aleph = Ox (first letter of Phoenician alphabeth) was just the first, in other words Hephaistos-Hestia at position 1.
In Plutarch's account of the battles between Seth and Horus, Horus cuts off or crushes Seth's genitals.

Huck wrote,
Also we learn, that Venus and Eros became "Pisces".
Venus belongs to "Pisces" in the lot book system ... as number 8 .
That is one reason for identifying the figure in the Cary Sheet Star card with Venus. Besides the star on her shoulder, there are two fishes in the water: Eros and Venus in the Euphrates.

Minchiate XX, it seems to me, is alchemical. It is the wolf Antimony (also called by other names) in the fire, as in Maier's Atalanta Fuguens Emblem XXIV (http://www.alchemywebsite.com/atl21-5.html), 150 years later.

Asses had both a negative and a positive connotation. It might help if you posted a translation of the verses , by number, in which the ass is mentione so as to get an idea of which it is in each case. I myself have a very hard time finding and reading the pages in the link you provided

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#37
mikeh wrote: In Plutarch's account of the battles between Seth and Horus, Horus cuts off or crushes Seth's genitals.
I didn't know that. But it fits my general idea about the Hephaistos context.

Huck wrote,
Also we learn, that Venus and Eros became "Pisces".
Venus belongs to "Pisces" in the lot book system ... as number 8 .
That is one reason for identifying the figure in the Cary Sheet Star card with Venus. Besides the star on her shoulder, there are two fishes in the water: Eros and Venus in the Euphrates.
The morning and evening star (= planet Venus) is a logical choice for Star in star-moon-sun. Also the star symbol attracted associations like Eosphorus or Lucifer, the "falling star" ...

The Lucifer idea caused some research (of myself) in early Babylonian history, cause the prophet Isaia ("between 740 and 687 BCE") is noted as having invented the name in relation to a Babylonian king. A Babylonian king Nabu-mukin-zeri was captured in October 729 BCE by Tiglath-Pileser III according ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiglath-Pileser_III
http://www.livius.org/cg-cm/chronicles/ ... l#column_i
further material ...
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... ch=lucifer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Isaiah

In the course of time the kingdom of Israel (Samaria) disappeared (722-720 BCE).
The text of the passage is here ..
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV
... and I'm not sure, if the King Nabu-mukin-zeri is identified correctly. As the Babylonian king isn't named, there are possibly disputes or great insecurities in this question.

Interestingly the "oldest astronomical texts" are tables of the "rise of Venus" ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_tabl ... Ammisaduqa
.. of the time of the King Ammi-Saduqa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammi-Saduqa

.. in 21 years and - strange enough, the reigning time of this king was also something like "21 years".
In the discussion of the text (referring to different theories) appears this sentence: "Most assumptions link a fixed lunar calendar to 8-year Venus as a 56 or 64 year cycle of the visibility of Venus."

I don't know this early Babylonian astrology, but ...
If a "64-years cycle" was used in this early time in Babylonian astrology, then one might assume some context to the binary system as used in the Chinese divination, as for instance the I-Ching. This system has specific mathematical beauty, containing also schemes with 21 or 22 elements. As we have in the observed lot book the use of 22 elements and somehow a probable development of this scheme from Babylonian astrology, and we definitely have an astrology of the Sepher Yetzirah (32 ways of wisdom, so with 32 elements with a subgroup of
22 letters of the alphabet) some time later (also dependent on Babylonian astrology and with consequences which reach as far 19th century AD Tarot), perhaps we might assume a sort of continuity between all these schemes. Here is some information about the 64-years-cycle and this seems to depend on the Ammi-Saduqua text.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology ... _Near_East

The text "Venus tablets of Ammisaduqa" itself is part of the "Enuma anu enlil" ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enuma_anu_enlil

The Venus-year is given with 224.7 days (on earth) ... an Earth year is given with 365.25 days (on earth)
13 Venus years seem to be "very close" to 8 years on earth:

(224.7 * 13) / 365.25 = 7.99753593 (= nearly 8 years)

... however, in 64 years this calendar would have to lose 7.2 days

(((224.7*104)/365.25)-63)*365.25 = 358.05 days

or
224.7*104 = 23368.8 (Venus)
365.5*64 = 23 376 (Earth)

In comparison the contemporary Egyptian day counting method with 365 days a year lost a whole year in 1430 years, so one day in 4 years.

If Isaia could could use "Lucifer" (= morning star) as a comparison to a Babylonian king (and it stays not clear, if he meant a "Babylonian" or an Assyrian King - who also was king of Babylonia after 729 BCE), it seems possible that he addressed some Babylonian favor for a calendar with Venus/Earth relation, based on the 8-years-Venus-cycle ...

... though I've to confess, that this material is new to me, and I've this question not studied enough.

******************
Minchiate XX, it seems to me, is alchemical. It is the wolf Antimony (also called by other names) in the fire, as in Maier's Atalanta Fuguens Emblem XXIV (http://www.alchemywebsite.com/atl21-5.html), 150 years later.

Asses had both a negative and a positive connotation. It might help if you posted a translation of the verses , by number, in which the ass is mentione so as to get an idea of which it is in each case. I myself have a very hard time finding and reading the pages in the link you provided
An alchemical connection ... maybe, maybe not. In the lot book we have Hare (21) beside the Dog (20). Both are astronomical compositions:

Lepus (Hare)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepus_%28constellation%29
Canis Maior and Canis Minor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canis_Majo ... llation%29

All appear "near Orion" and Orion is seen as "the hunter" ... so this part might be "astronomical".
Some (few for the moment) similarities between lot book and Minchiate give the impression, that there was an "unknown" relationship ... for the lot book one might suspect, that it impressed "before its appearance in the "Fränkischen Losbuch" some German circles, perhaps going back to an import at "high social level" in 13th century. Germany had its alchemical circles in the better society ... but isn't the relationship between Greek mythology and medieval alchemy not so, that alchemy "took inspirations" from Greek mythology and loved to use metaphors from this ideas? Alchemy wasn't essential for the existence of Greek mythology or early star constellation interpretation.

***********

The text of the lot book is better to study, if you download it as pdf.file at your computer .. online the handling is difficult and time-consuming.
The text itself isn't so interesting ... possibly the assumed "original" was more interesting and more clear. As it is with much poems, the text is possibly "corrupt" in matters of content, cause the poet wished to have it "good sounding" in language. In the printed version the 4-line-poems have no numbers, in the Fränkischen Losbuch they have. I assume, that the numbers refer to the 22 themes.
... :-) ... a translation would be a work with much horrors, especially as there is the impression, that they don't make too much sense.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Pope with the donkey / "Oldest Tarot"

#38
Some remarkable points about the prophets ...

Lorenzo Spirito (20 prophets) used 10 of the 22 prophets of the observed lot book. The first is in both David.

The last prophet is Jacob ... possibly an association to Jacob of Compostela (Spain ?, I thought first), but there is Isaac (16), Abraham (17), Joseph (18) and Jacob (22), so this are probably all patriarchs.

Nr. 15 is Moses, so actually one might have suspected Jacob for 19 (or for 15 instead of Moses)

Curiously Nr. 14 is Olibrius ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olybrius
... somehow the last Western Roman Emperor (for a few months only in 472, but he was twice in the election and somehow he had been already "the true heir" in 454, 18 years before he became emperor). After him a few other were called emperor (till 480), but they missed to confess the population. In the context of the lot book it seems, that Olibrius is addressed as "last Roman emperor" (otherwise one would wonder, why he is listed as prophet), as two other of similar character are also included as prophets: Theodosius (last Roman emperor of West- and East-Rome), Nr. 12, and Nebukadnezar as last Babylonian king (10).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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