Playing Card list with Tarocchi 1559:

#1
A Depaulis article (only a part of it) ...

http://www.tarot-as-tarocchi.com/carte- ... -sec..html
... in the original English in IPCS 36/3, p. 205-211
A di 3 di maggio 1559. Richeza (?) Per conto di m.ro Domenico Cartaro al detto

* Prima Quattro riversi et dui Scacchi, scudi 1.20
* Una stampa di Tarocchi picculi formata, scudi 1,50
* Una stampa di Tarocchi grandi formata, 2 scudi
* Tre para di Stampe di carte formate, scudi 4,50
* Una stampa di Tarocchi Todini, scudi 0,50
* Tarocchi ligati a Mazzi para 120, 12 scudi
* Tarocchi ligati in carta bianca para 35, scudi 3,85
* Tarocchi Todini forniti para 17, scudi 2.20
* Carte ligate a Mazzi para 88, scudi 4,40
* Carte ligate in carta bianca romanesche para 200, scudi 10
* Carte romanesche ligate in carta bianca para 30, scudi 1,65
* Tarocchi Romaneschi ligati in carta bianca para 7, scudi 0,75
* Tarocchi senza carta tagliati para 20, scudi 0,70
* Carte dipinte para 30, scudi 0,90
* Carte bianche in cartone para 175, scudi 1,40
* Tarocchi Bianchi senza carte para 150, scudi 0,90
* Tarocchi ferraresi legati in carta bianca forniti para 93, scudi 13
* Tarocchi ferraresi legati in carta bianca forniti para 14, scudi 12
* Tarocchi ferraresi cum li dieci De Marco Antonio de Janui dozine 24, scudi 19
* Carte romane fatte a Lion di Francia marcho di Moret dozine 36, scudi 1,80
* Carte romanesche larghe fatte Lion fenite e ligate in carta bianca dozine cinque, scudi 2,50
That's an inventory, which means, one card maker gives up, and the other takes the rest of the business. So this are are not the prices for the final user !!!!

http://books.google.com/books?id=pwAggV ... at&f=false
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Let's discuss this.

Prima Quattro (= "first four" ??? four papi ???) riversi (Depaulis explains, this are 4 backs) ... dui Scacchi he explains as chequered backs. ... Should be then stamps (?)
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Playing Card list with Tarocchi 1559:

#2
In his English version of the article Depaulis gives some translation of the list. He himself adds: "Not all meanings are certain. They are not glossed in dictionaries, so it is by comparison and from a careful reading of the Grande Dizionario della lingua italiana, 22 vol., Turin 1961-2002, that I inferred the meanings I suggest." So he himself sees problems to interpret the list.

I love numbers ... so I calculated the single points of the list:
This are stamps
0.20 = 1,20/6 *Prima Quattro riversi et dui Scacchi, scudi
1.50 *Una stampa di Tarocchi picculi formata, scudi
1.50 *Una stampa di Tarocchi grandi formata, 2 scudi
1.50 = 3/4.5 *Tre para di Stampe di carte formate, scudi 4,50
0.50 *Una stampa di Tarocchi Todini, scudi 0,50

This is something with cards
0.10 = 12/120 *Tarocchi ligati a Mazzi para 120, 12 scudi
0.11 = 3.85/35 *Tarocchi ligati in carta bianca para 35, scudi 3,85
0.13 = 2.20/17 ..(-0.01) *Tarocchi Todini forniti para 17, scudi 2.20
0.05 = 4.40/88 *Carte ligate a Mazzi para 88, scudi 4,40
0.05 = 10/200 *Carte ligate in carta bianca romanesche para 200, scudi 10
0.055= 1.65/30 *Carte romanesche ligate in carta bianca para 30, scudi 1,65
0.11 = 0.75/7 ..(-0.02) *Tarocchi Romaneschi ligati in carta bianca para 7, scudi 0,75
0.035= 0.70/20 *Tarocchi senza carta tagliati para 20, scudi 0,70
0.03 = 090/30 *Carte dipinte para 30, scudi 0,90
0.008= 1.40/175 *Carte bianche in cartone para 175, scudi 1,40
0.006= 0.90/150 *Tarocchi Bianchi senza carte para 150, scudi 0,90
0.14 = 13/93 .. (-0.02) *Tarocchi ferraresi legati in carta bianca forniti para 93, scudi 13
0.866= 12/14 = 6/7 *Tarocchi ferraresi legati in carta bianca forniti para 14, scudi 12

This are items in dozen values
0.066= 19/12x24 (circa) *Tarocchi ferraresi cum li dieci De Marco Antonio de Janui dozine 24, scudi 19
12 piece for 0.8 (circa)
0.0042= 1.8/12x36 *Carte romane fatte a Lion di Francia marcho di Moret dozine 36, scudi 1,80
12 piece for 0.05
0.0042= 2.50/12x5 *Carte romanesche larghe fatte Lion fenite e ligate in carta bianca dozine cinque, scudi 2,50
12 piece for 0.05
Then I sorted the entries according their single value or a product and received groups:
Stamps
0.20 = 1,20/6 *Prima Quattro riversi et dui Scacchi, scudi
1.50 *Una stampa di Tarocchi picculi formata, scudi
1.50 *Una stampa di Tarocchi grandi formata, 2 scudi
1.50 = 3/4.5 *Tre para di Stampe di carte formate, scudi 4,50
0.50 *Una stampa di Tarocchi Todini, scudi 0,50

class 0.10 - 0.14 with one very expensive
0.10 = 12/120 *Tarocchi ligati a Mazzi para 120, 12 scudi
0.11 = 3.85/35 *Tarocchi ligati in carta bianca para 35, scudi 3,85
0.11 = 0.75/7 ..(-0.02) *Tarocchi Romaneschi ligati in carta bianca para 7, scudi 0,75
0.13 = 2.20/17 ..(-0.01) *Tarocchi Todini forniti para 17, scudi 2.20
0.14 = 13/93 .. (-0.02) *Tarocchi ferraresi legati in carta bianca forniti para 93, scudi 13
very expensive
0.866= 12/14 = 6/7 *Tarocchi ferraresi legati in carta bianca forniti para 14, scudi 12

class 0.03 - 0.55 with one unusual Tarocchi
0.03 = 090/30 *Carte dipinte para 30, scudi 0,90
0.05 = 4.40/88 *Carte ligate a Mazzi para 88, scudi 4,40
0.05 = 10/200 *Carte ligate in carta bianca romanesche para 200, scudi 10
0.055= 1.65/30 *Carte romanesche ligate in carta bianca para 30, scudi 1,65
Depaulis suggests, that "senza carte" has to be translated "without pip and court cards"
0.035= 0.70/20 *Tarocchi senza carta tagliati para 20, scudi 0,70

class under 0.01
0.006= 0.90/150 *Tarocchi Bianchi senza carte para 150, scudi 0,90
0.008= 1.40/175 *Carte bianche in cartone para 175, scudi 1,40

class in group of dozens
0.0066= 19/12x24 (circa) *Tarocchi ferraresi cum li dieci De Marco Antonio de Janui dozine 24, scudi 19
12 piece for 0.8 (circa)
0.0042= 1.8/12x36 *Carte romane fatte a Lion di Francia marcho di Moret dozine 36, scudi 1,80
12 piece for 0.05
0.0042= 2.50/12x5 *Carte romanesche larghe fatte Lion fenite e ligate in carta bianca dozine cinque, scudi 2,50
12 piece for 0.05
Judging it from the price, I imagine, that the class under 0.01 and the class in group of dozens are one group and they possibly are just only printed paper (the dozen group seems to be imported and printed by foreign producers). Actually ... perhaps there was a very cheap market, at which the people just played with black-white woodcut prints, which they cut themselves.

It would make sense, if the class 0.03 - 0.55 would mean "real decks" and the class 0.10 - 0.14 would mean "real Tarocchi decks" with one deck for "rich buyers" for 0.86 scudi.

"Carte bianchi in cartone" (0.008) might indicate better paper quality, "Tarocchi Bianchi senza carte" (0.006). If Depaulis' suggestion about "senza carte" is correct, then with a reduced number of cards possibly also.

********

Comparing the prices, which are known to me from Ferrara, ... there I make the observatioon, that the Florentine evaluation of a scudi (which is somehow "a ducat", if I understand it correctly) in 1556 in the book mentioned one article earlier has a remarkable difference to that of Ferrara much earlier.

The book gives 1 Scudi = 7 Lira and 10 soldi for Florence
Ferrara had mich earlier 1 ducato = 2 and 4/5 Lira Marchesana

So the evaluation of the Lira went down, or it was a general difference between Florentine and Ferrarese money already earlier. These money evaluations are difficult - at least to me.

Ignoring this, I come to a price of a little more than 6 Lira for the most expensive of the Tarocchi decks from the list (0.86 scudi).
In Ferrara c. 1455 the usual high price decks had 10-12 Lira (I interpret this as the gilded cards), a middle class of decks had 4-5 Lira (I interpret "not gilded"). The cheapest price in Ferrara, what we do know of, was the deck of the boys in 1442 with c. 1/2 Lira, another cheap price was 1 Lira.
0.10 - 0.14 Scudi (for a Tarocchi deck) should fall in the same category ... though, as above observed, there might have been possibly a stronger inflation for the Lira.

Another factor is naturally, that the values on the list are NOT "final user" prices.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Playing Card list with Tarocchi 1559:

#3
I looked for Depaulis' source, had luck and found it.

http://www.icpal.beniculturali.it/sched ... FCEB2C9F90

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Some notes:
--------------
1. The sum in point d) "scudi 22.45" isn't correct, likely there are some missing items.

2. The sum in point c) " scudi 68.845" is also not correct. In this case the sum is for unknown reason too low.

3. Depaulis' Italian version has a writing error with "para 14" - "scudi 12", which is correct in his English version (IPCS-Journal) in with "para 14" "scudi 18".
This relates to the most expensive Tarocchi decks, which now (in 1559) took 18/14 Scudi and NOT 12/14 Scusi, so not about 0.87 scudi, but c. 1.3 Scudi and it is now possibly in the price dimension, which was earlier paid at the Borso court for "gilded decks" (we have to reflect, that 1.3 Scudi is not a normal-user-price, but reduced). I already pointed to the difficulties with the money and to the condition, that my own knowledge about Italian money isn't really well developed.
BUT THIS IS IMPORTANT: There exist various Trionfi cards, which are considered forgeries, cause there is strong reason to assume (paper analysis), that they are from 16th or later centuries. But for the case, that we have reason to assume, that such decks still were normal produced in 16th century (in this case 1559), they are possibly not "forgeries", but just later hand painted decks.


from an article of Andrea Vitali, a 16th-century-page
Large view: http://a-tarot.eu/p/jan-11/cards-5.jpg

4. Point e) was not reflected in Depaulis' article. We see, that "20 para de carte francese vecchie, 2 para de tarocchi et un paro de carte vecchie" not appear on the list (whereby the latter, "carte vecchie" not naturally must have referred to playing cards, but likely did).

Generally it has to be noted, that the person, Domenico di Bagio Bacchi, who sold this material, likely cause he left the business, is called a "cartaro", which usually refers to a paper-trader, not to a printer. The person Giovanni Gigliotti, who bought the material, had become known as a book-printer, active as a book printer from 1558 - 1586, and later the business was proceeded by his "eredi", his heirs.
I've searched for the name "Giovanni di Bagio" and found, that various persons in Florence had this name. I can imagine, that the name "cartaro" also in this case might still mean "paper-trader" and not printer ... obviously he had "playing cards" from different regions, and it's a natural occupation of a paper-trader to move items "somehow connected to the paper business" from one location to the other, which naturally also might have included printing material. Depaulis calculated 700 decks and was astonished about the high number, but actually inside an import-export trade this shouldn't be such a big number. For Gigliotti, who was in 1559 still a young printer, who just had started his business (1558), an investment in the playing card business also looks natural, even when finally book-selling proves to be the better occupation.
It's even a question (to me with my not satisfying Italian-language-qualities), if Giovanni di Biagio really finished his business, or if this operation was just part of his usual trade. Perhaps he bought also older and used printing material, when he got the opportunity, and sold it elsewhere, where it still could be used.
Would be nice, if somebody with better Italian understanding would check, if this is a possibility.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Playing Card list with Tarocchi 1559:

#4
Well, one should check, if possible, for important documents the political background of the time - occasionally there might be natural relation to that , what the document is about. In this case I don't know, it might be a simple business of somebody finishingg his business ... but obviously 1559 is a rather active year.

The trader sells a lot of Ferrarese decks, they have a large quantity in the trade.

What happened in Ferrara: The duke Ercole II. died 1559, political disturbances are expectable. But this happened after the deal (May 1559), in October 1559. But in this case Ercole might have been sik before, and a good business man calculates and interprets things, before they happen.
Well, in 1556 Ercole II sided with the Pope and France against Spain (a real war, which started already 1551), but he left the alliance in 1558. The natural result should have been, that the pope wasn't happy about Ercole. This anger of the pope might have involved a papal trading boykott against import from Ferrara, and a trading boykott might mean, that Giovanni di Bagio wasn't interested to have Ferrarese cards. The boykott even might never have taken place, it's just, that Giovanni di Bagio might have feared the possibility. The current pope Paul IV. was generally a dangerous man and he also had some dangerous relatives, as Paul III (Pier Luigi Farnese), Alexander VI (Cesare Borgia) and Sixtus IV (Girolamo Riario). A lot of persons were persecuted in his time, and he censored books ... and "The strengthening of the Inquisition continued under Paul IV, and few could consider themselves safe by virtue of position in his drive to reform the Church; even cardinals he disliked could be imprisoned."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Paul_IV
Luckily he died also in 1559 (August), also after the deal. After his death the new pope made a process against the dangerous relatives, and "Cardinal Carlo Carafa was strangled, and Duke Giovanni Carafa of Paliano, with his nearest connections, beheaded".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_IV
So the political waves in 1559 were considerable high and this might have influenced or even caused the deal. If, as might be suspected, Giovanni die Bagio had some familiary connections to Florence (Florence had sided with Spain in the war), there might be background of this kind.
The war ended at 3rd of April 1559, so before the deal ... "The Peace of Cateau-Cambrésis was signed between Elizabeth I of England and Henry II of France on 2 April and between Henry II and Philip II of Spain on 3 April 1559, at Le Cateau-Cambrésis, around twenty kilometers south-east of Cambrai".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Wa ... %80%931559
It might have taken two weeks till the news reached Rome. Likely a sort of relaxation in Rome ... perhaps before Bagio wasn't allowed to sell his business or to travel to Florence. Perhaps he was interested to sell cause he didn't trust this momentary peace. Perhaps he wasn't allowed to be in Rome before April 1559, but still had some property there, which he liquidated as quick as possible in the moment of some relaxation. Naturally a strong personal interest to sell would have influenced the price of his collection.

Many possibilities, although it's true, that 1559 was not a normal year as many others, nonetheless it might have been just have been "business as usual".
On a side-view I've seen that Domenico appears also in another document.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Playing Card list with Tarocchi 1559:

#5
The original source ...

http://www.icpal.beniculturali.it/sched ... FCEB2C9F90
Masetti Zannini, Gian Ludovico
Produzione e commercio della carta in documenti notarili romani del Cinquecento
in Bollettino dell'Istituto di patologia del libro "Alfonso Gallo", v. 30., 1971, 3/4, 161-195

... was discussed again by MikeH at ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1019&start=39

***************

Going through the old material I found it necessary to find the passage, which linked from Zannini's and Lodovico's major text to the list, which appears at p. 188-191 in the Appendix as Nr. VIII. I found the short passage at p. 171-172, it's difficult to find, especially as the webpage is not comfortable to handle. Here it is:

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The full page is at ...
http://a-tarot.eu/p/2014/trio-37.jpg
... where you can check, that there is not more.

**************

It's confirmed there, that the final price should have been "124 Scudi" and not more. This, although at the lists in he appendix appear higher numbers, which in their summary should be far higher than 124 Scudi.

I assume, that in the deal the original prices were calculated, and from these values a far lower percentage was taken and this resulted in "124 Scudi". As some of the values anyway look confused (the summaries look wrong), after all the whole operation stays a little bit mysterious and is in my opinion not solvable to a logical calculation.

See my marks on the full pages:
http://a-tarot.eu/p/2014/tr-188.jpg
http://a-tarot.eu/p/2014/tr-190.jpg

The single prices of the different items - as already shown above - make more sense.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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