Rules 1637 ... French readers desired

#1
My French isn't very well and it's exhausting to read very much in this language .... :-) ... beside the point, that I don't understand all with security.

Following is the case:

http://www.tarock.info/depaulis.htm
.. gives the rules of 1637 according Depaulis
Also it gives the information, that Michel de Marolles is (probably) the author, and as production location is given Nevers.

Michel de Marolles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_de_Marolles

who had contact to the the salon of Madeleine de Scudery, perhaps an detail of interest
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madeleine_de_Scud%C3%A9ry

Michel de Marolles had written larger Memoires ... according Wiki there are

# Les Mémoires de Michel de Marolles, abbé de Villeloin, divisés en trois parties, contenant ce qu'il a vu de plus remarquable en sa vie, depuis l'année 1600, ses entretiens avec quelques-uns des plus savants hommes de son temps, et les généalogies de quelques familles alliées dans la sienne ; avec une briève description de la très-illustre maison de Mantoue et de Nevers (1656)
# Suitte des Mémoires de Michel de Marolles abbé de Villeloin contenant douze traitez sur divers Sujets curieux... (1657)
# Mémoires de Michel de Marolles abbé de Villeloin. Avec des notes historiques et critiques [by abbé Gouget] (1755). This edition does not include the interesting genealogical notes in the Sommaville edition of 1656, though they do appear in a rare Suitte of 1657

books.google.com has the edition of 1755 (I think 3 books)

Book 1:

In the first book the word "Tarots" seems to appear twice ...

P. 113 ... seems to relate to 1637
P. 190 ... seems to relate to 1633

At p. 113: The author is in Nevers and a young princess wants to play Tarot, the author seems not very interested. The father of the princess dies. In the further development, the author gets a lot to do with the paper material of the family. It seems, that at least till 1656 he had intensive contact.

Father and daughter are identified at the Gonzaga family genealogy, so both are of Italian descend
C5. Carlo I, *Paris 6.5.1580, +Mantova 20.9.1637, Duc de Nevers et Rethel (1595-1637), Duca di Mantova, Duca del Monferrato (1627-37), Duca de Mayenne 1621; m.Paris 1.2.1599 Caterine de Lorraine-Mayenne, dau.of Carlo Duca di Mayenne by Enrichetta di Savoia Marchesa di Villars (*1585, +Paris 18.3.1618)

MISTAKE D6. Anna Maria, *Paris 1616, +there 6.7.1684; 1m: (separated) Henri de Lorraine, Duc de Guise (+1664); 2m: Paris 24.5.1645 Eduard von Wittelsbach, Count Palatine of Rhine (*5.9.1625, +Paris 13.3.1653)
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/gonzaga/gonzaga3.html#Fe2
CORRECTED: I noted later, that the real person was her sister, 5 years older
D4. Ludovica Maria, *Paris 18.8.1611, +Warsaw 10.5.1667; 1m: 10.3.1645 Ladislav IV Vasa, King of Poland (*5.5.1595 +10.5.1648); 2m: 29.5.1649 Jan Kazimierz II Vasa, King of Poland (*22.5.1609 +16.12.1672)


First I'd the idea, that Marolles learned the game at Nevers in 1637, but at p. 190 a second note was given, according which a man (likely his father) died and in the description of his life it appears, that the father loved to play Tarots, Chess and Checkers.
According this it seems, as if the author knew the game from his own home, and it was possibly the princess, who was interested to learn it, and that possibly the "first Tarot rules of 1637" found to a printing, cause the young princess (21 years, corrected 26 years) with her desire stimulated a publication.

http://books.google.com/books?id=zJoPAA ... ts&f=false
here are the 2 passages of the first book ... to get an insight, what it is about, one has to read a little more than only one page

***********************

Book 2:

p. 142
The author rambles about himself, possibly connected to the year 1635 (?). He also seem to love Tarots and Chess, but not the "stupid games".
http://books.google.com/books?id=35oPAA ... ts&f=false

***********************

Book 3:

Well, here I need really help ...
It seems, that the author intends to design a ballet. Or various ballets.
Inside this show with many allegorical figures appear Tarot and other playing cards. I'm not sure, if all trumps appear in the balletts or only Fool, Bateleur and World, but these appear as a group.

One has to read a lot of pages to get the whole context. In the introduction it seems clear, that the author wrote this 1656.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Sfk_AA ... ts&f=false
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Rules 1637 ... French readers desired

#2
I found another text of Marolles from 1676

Marolles, Michel ¬de¬ i
Tableaux Du Temple Des Muses
Tirez Du Cabinet De Feu Mr. Favereau ... & gravez en Tailles-douces par les meilleurs Maistres de son temps ...
Avec Les Descriptions, Remarques & Annotations Composées Par ... Michel De Marolles Abbé de Villeloin
Amsterdam
Wolfgank
1676

... with 58 large, somehow unusual engravings about Greek mythology.

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit ... 4b9c5fcd4e

further another picture



Image


... with short description
Michel de Marolles, abbé of Villeloin (1600-1681) was the first major print collector in Europe. He formed a collection of over 120,000 prints by artists as varied as Mantegna, Dürer and Lucas van Leyden, as well as by his French contemporaries such as Bosse, Callot and Mellan. His collection, contained in 500 leather-bound albums, was purchased by Louis XIV in 1667. It became the nucleus of the present-day collection of the print room of the Bibliothèque Nationale de France.
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au/work/2 ... e-marolles

Here's an intensive "critique" with some vivid details of the person ..
http://books.google.com/books?id=GWBYAA ... es&f=false
.. at least well written by Isaac Disraeli, father of a British Prime minister
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_D%27Israeli

Another short life description ...
Le premier recueil de gravures de Rembrandt que posséda le Cabinet des Estampes, comprenait deux cent vingt quatre gravures. Il avait été composé par l'abbé Michel de Marolles (1600-1681), l'un des premiers et des plus grands collectionneurs d'estampes connus. Originaire de Touraine, il fut nommé abbé commendataire de l'abbaye de Villeloin en 1626. Il vécut à Paris. La princesse Marie, fille de Charles de Gonzague, duc de Nevers, plus tard, Reine de Pologne, fut sa protectrice. Dès 1626, Marolles se passionna pour les estampes. Il avait peu de concurrents et était en relation avec les graveurs et les amateurs contemporains. Il possédait la plus riche collection d'estampes formée au XVIIe siècle.
Marolles rédigea un catalogue de sa collection publié en 1663, dans lequel il énumère les estampes qu'il possède. Il révèle dans de brefs propos ses goûts et ceux de son époque. Il ne manifeste pas d'admiration particulière pour Rembrandt lorsqu'il le mentionne : "RHINBRAND. L'œuvre de ce peintre et graveur Hollandais consiste en force pièces dont j'ay recueilli dans ce volume jusques au nombre de 224 ou il y a des portraits et des caprices fort curieux." L'inventaire de sa collection rédigé par Ladvenant et de La Croix, de 1722 à 1730 environ, mentionne les estampes contenues dans les cent cinq volumes qui la composaient. Aucun classement rigoureux n'intervient. Les gravures et les sujets se suivent sans qu'aucun ordre ne se perçoive.Toutes ces pièces furent mêlées à celles qui entrèrent ensuite. Certaines en double exemplaire servirent de monnaie d'échange, d'autres furent remplacées par de plus belles épreuves. Aucune marque n'ayant été apposée sur les gravures, il n'est pas toujours possible actuellement de citer avec certitude les "Rembrandt" de la Collection Marolles.
So the young princess indeed became his protector, but it had been not Anna Maria, but Ludovica Maria ...

D4. Ludovica Maria, *Paris 18.8.1611, +Warsaw 10.5.1667; 1m: 10.3.1645 Ladislav IV Vasa, King of Poland (*5.5.1595 +10.5.1648); 2m: 29.5.1649 Jan Kazimierz II Vasa, King of Poland (*22.5.1609 +16.12.1672)

... who became a late Polish queen with 34 years later, and that twice.

Image

* Vladislaus IV [1595-1648] by the grace of God, king of Poland, grand duke of Lithuania, Ruthenia, Prussia, Masovia, Samogitia, Livonia, and also hereditary king of the Swedes, Goths and Vandals, elected Grand Duke of Moscow.

As Władysław Zygmunt Waza-Jagiellon, in 1632 he was elected King of Poland. By paternal inheritance, he legally succeeded as King of Sweden. He was also heir to one of the several Christian claims to the title of King of Jerusalem, but the Kingdom of Jerusalem had been defunct for several centuries. His titles were the longest of those of any Polish king ever.

[Bona Sforza was his grand-grandmother]
medal of honor, remembering victories about Sweden, Russia and Turkey

Image


The "princess" herself looked this way ...
Image


... and her life with its ups and downs is rather interesting ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwika_Maria_Gonzaga
Her first Polish king died soon and she took the half-brother ...

Image

... whose career is rather a very big adventure. Finally he was an abbot in Paris ... no joke.

He met his later wife 1440 in her Parisian salon, after he was released from French prison.

Very curious destinies.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Rules 1637 ... French readers desired

#3
Sorry for the late reply, as you point out elsewhere. Although my french is correct, my english is at its best barely acceptable so I didn't react to your message hoping that someone else would be more at ease in helping you here.
Huck wrote: At p. 113: The author is in Nevers and a young princess wants to play Tarot, the author seems not very interested. The father of the princess dies. In the further development, the author gets a lot to do with the paper material of the family. It seems, that at least till 1656 he had intensive contact.
translating the passage regarding the princess of Mantoue
Madam the Princess Marie wanted to play Tarots, which is a kind of cards that used to be played much more formerly that is is nowadays ; and, having invited me to be in her game, as the rules didn't seem beautiful enough to her, nor varied enough, she decided to create new ones, and instructed me to wrute them and have them printed, so they would be more useful and so that no one would abuse.
It is true that those rules made the game a lot more beautiful, et the ones who learned them and got used to them enjoyed them so much that they could nearly not like any other game. I was among those ones ; and although I wasn't lucky, as I wasn't lucky in any other games, I must admit that the hours I spent playing it seemed quite short. But since this Princess's exaltation deprived me of the happiness to see her, I didn't like this game anymore nor didn't I care anymore to see the great world maybe "the high society" might be more appropriate here
As you quoted earlier the father was
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Ier_de_Mantoue
born in Paris, he visited Rome, Florence and Mantoue when he was thirteen.
The daughter as you mentionned is Louise-Marie
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise-Marie_de_Gonzague

As you understood, Marolles writes about his own father death, and indeed the dead father played Tarots - described as being more interested in hunting and nature than "sedentary games", except Tarots, Chess and checkers.
According this it seems, as if the author knew the game from his own home, and it was possibly the princess, who was interested to learn it, and that possibly the "first Tarot rules of 1637" found to a printing, cause the young princess (21 years, corrected 26 years) with her desire stimulated a publication.
the 1637 rule might well be the version of the game created for the princess Louise-Marie, also it might be inspired by Marolles' father way of playing the tarots, or is it the then standard rule ? I lack severalimportant references in recent researches so please excuse me if I missed the point.

That's it for book 1, hope that helps.

Bertrand

Re: Rules 1637 ... French readers desired

#4
Book 2:
p. 142
The author rambles about himself, possibly connected to the year 1635 (?). He also seem to love Tarots and Chess, but not the "stupid games".
http://books.google.com/books?id=35oPAA ... ts&f=false
What is peculiar is that he mentions on one side card games, then on the other side Tarots and Chess. je me fusse occupé aux cartes... . J'ai aussi aimé les jeux des Échecs et des Tarots. This doesn't seem connected to a specific year.
Book 3:

Well, here I need really help ...
It seems, that the author intends to design a ballet. Or various ballets.
Inside this show with many allegorical figures appear Tarot and other playing cards. I'm not sure, if all trumps appear in the balletts or only Fool, Bateleur and World, but these appear as a group.

One has to read a lot of pages to get the whole context. In the introduction it seems clear, that the author wrote this 1656.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Sfk_AA ... ts&f=false
Reading it, I remembered spotted this one back in january but didn't spend any time studying it.
All I noted then was that in the ballet were appearing only three cards from the trumps, and then the four kings, that is the seven Tarots as described in the 1637 rule.
the World represented as a big ball moving by itself, having kind of a human form, or represented by a Figure toppedwearing as a hat a globe , surrounded by the Zodiac as a scarf ; the Mat dressed as a Jester(Fou = Fol) ; and the Bagat as a mercer of bagatelles(trifles)
then follow the kings (along with their spouses), then chevaliers de coupes, épées, bâtons et deniers respectively dressed as Duke, Marquis, Count, Baron, and then the four Valets. After that follow cards from the standard pack. The procession ends with the Fool and the Bagat interacting with other cards, and the World pushing everyone back where they came out from.

Marolles explains earlier what motivated this part of his Ballet. A "gentilhomme" to who he presented the preceding parts of his ballet, challenged him (with courtoisie) to write a ballet about cards, tarots and chess which "would be extremelly difficult, as it would be difficult to write ballet about Heraldry, Oracles and Emblems" - all examples of themes Marolles gave him beforehand. The next day Marolles presented his second part to said (and unnamed) gentilhomme.

Sorry my english is definitely terrible.

You might also find worthy and related informations in Thierry Depaulis, "Quand l'abbé de Marolles jouait au tarot", Le Vieux Papier, fascicule 365, july 2002 which I didn't had the pleasure to read - yet !

Bertrand

Re: Rules 1637 ... French readers desired

#6
Bertrand wrote:Sorry for the late reply, as you point out elsewhere. Although my french is correct, my english is at its best barely acceptable so I didn't react to your message hoping that someone else would be more at ease in helping you here.
Much thanks, Bertrand, I can deal very good with somebodies else bad English than with my own worse French ... :-) ... and actually I never noticed, that your English is bad (perhaps cause I also have some bad English occasionally ... .-)) You indeed got some details, which I alone wouldn't have figured out.
Huck wrote: At p. 113: The author is in Nevers and a young princess wants to play Tarot, the author seems not very interested. The father of the princess dies. In the further development, the author gets a lot to do with the paper material of the family. It seems, that at least till 1656 he had intensive contact.
translating the passage regarding the princess of Mantoue
Madam the Princess Marie wanted to play Tarots, which is a kind of cards that used to be played much more formerly that is is nowadays ; and, having invited me to be in her game, as the rules didn't seem beautiful enough to her, nor varied enough, she decided to create new ones, and instructed me to wrute them and have them printed, so they would be more useful and so that no one would abuse.
It is true that those rules made the game a lot more beautiful, et the ones who learned them and got used to them enjoyed them so much that they could nearly not like any other game. I was among those ones ; and although I wasn't lucky, as I wasn't lucky in any other games, I must admit that the hours I spent playing it seemed quite short. But since this Princess's exaltation deprived me of the happiness to see her, I didn't like this game anymore nor didn't I care anymore to see the great world maybe "the high society" might be more appropriate here
So it's indeed a sort of 95% confirmation, that the rules, which we know, are those, which are written by Marmolles, under the assumption, that location and printing date somehow appears in the document. In the latter part he seems to reflect the condition, that the princess left France to become Polish queen around 1445, which would mean, Marmolles more or less didn't play the game between 1645-56.
His personal impression is in 1456/57 (as you translated), that "Tarots, which is a kind of cards that used to be played much more formerly that is is nowadays" ... with which he naturally only expresses his own individual observation. If one takes his opinion as of general value, it would possibly say, that society played "Tarots till ca. 1445", but lost interests later.
If one looks at the general politic, then we have a grown-up king plus the necessary connected dominating "grown-up society" till 1643, when the king died, and a new child-king started to reign with his minister of the state Mazarin and a king-mother in the background.
The "princess" builds a salon since 1640 and likely causes a lot of opportunity to play with cards herself - but only till 1645. Marolles himself is noted to have frequented also the salon of Madame de Scuderi, likely later. In her character the literary aspects seem to have dominated. Also the time of the Fronde might have caused, that opportunities to play with cards became less.
This all might have been changed since around 1455-56, when the young king himself started to demand own public festivities, or when he officially took the reign, in 1461.
We've another printing of rules in 1659, so perhaps the public sign, that Tarot cards use started a new, more successful, period.

Would be nice to know a little bit more about the two salons, that of the "princess" and that of Scudery.
(there is a 3rd "very important" salon mentioned in the Wiki article

["The first renowned salon in France was the Hôtel de Rambouillet not far from the Palais du Louvre in Paris, which its hostess, Roman-born Catherine de Vivonne, marquise de Rambouillet (1588–1665), ran from 1607 until her death.[3][4] She established the rules of etiquette of the salon which resembled the earlier codes of Italian chivalry."] .... more intensive described in the biography of the owner, see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_ ... ambouillet
....
the 1637 rule might well be the version of the game created for the princess Louise-Marie, also it might be inspired by Marolles' father way of playing the tarots, or is it the then standard rule ? I lack severalimportant references in recent researches so please excuse me if I missed the point.

That's it for book 1, hope that helps.

Bertrand
Yes, this was already a big help, but the real interesting (and difficult) part might be the analyzes of the ballet-intentions in Book 3.
As I perceive it, it's the "princess", which knows the better rules.

Studying the situation and especially the genealogy and other political conditions, it seems clear, that a close contact between Nevers and Mantova (original home of the Gonzagas) is still given in the critical time (1637).

... and this princess is descended from Isabella d'Este, which definitely is one of the few very clearly known "Trionfi card women" in 15th/16th century. And she was called for some time the one very dominant woman.

Isabella collected and she played cards often (and we may assume: Trionfi cards), connected to some very impressive culture ... she gave a model to later salon behavior. It's likely, that her children grew up with this impression and that this special favor for Tarot cards went through the generations and also to Nevers in France.

The Nevers-Gonzaga definitely stayed in familiary contact, cause - although the Nevers line was founded only by a 3rd son in 1565 by marriage - since 1627 the reigning Nevers-Gonzaga duke got also the major title "Duke of Mantova" for his line ... and spend likely most his time in Italy again, where he died in 1637, just the year of the Tarot rules.

The "princess" had been quasi "prisoned" for some time, and a marriage contract to the oldest brother of the king (so the possible replacement king for the case, that Louis XIII died) was broken by the intervention of the King Louis XIII. before.
After having spent her childhood with her mother, she was to have married Gaston, Duke of Orléans, in 1627, but King Louis XIII of France opposed the marriage and subsequently imprisoned her in the Vincennes fortress and later in a convent.
The first proposal that she marry the King of Poland, Władysław IV Vasa, was made in 1634, but Władysław eventually married Cecilia Renata of Austria.
In 1640, Marie Louise met Władysław's brother, John Casimir, and started her literary salon in Paris.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Louise_Gonzaga
"After having spent her childhood with her mother, she was to have married Gaston, Duke of Orléans, in 1627" ... this somehow is nonsense, cause her mother was dead in 1618. The mother descended from the d'Este court in Ferrara, she also was half-Italian / half French, somehow also from a Trionfi-card-family. Possibly she partly had been educated in Italy (?) ... perhaps I find a better page.

But I note, that you've made a second post, thanks ... and I see, there's some expanded material to study ... so I better stop my rambling to get the new information.

*******

I just give these additional material to the development of the salons:
The salon was an Italian invention of the 16th century which flourished in France throughout the 17th and 18th centuries. In 16th-century Italy some scintillating circles formed in the smaller courts which resembled salons, often galvanized by the presence of a beautiful and educated patroness such as Isabella d'Este or Elisabetta Gonzaga.

The word salon first appeared in France in 1664 (from the Italian word salone, itself from sala, the large reception hall of Italian mansions). One important place for the exchange of ideas was the salon. Literary gatherings before this were often referred to by using the name of the room in which they occurred, like cabinet, réduit, ruelle and alcôve.[1] Before the end of the 17th century, these gatherings were frequently held in the bedroom (treated as a more private form of drawing room)[2]: a lady, reclining on her bed, would receive close friends who would sit on chairs or stools drawn around. This practice may be contrasted with the greater formalities of Louis XIV's petit lever, where all stood. Ruelle, literally meaning "narrow street" or "lane", designates the space between a bed and the wall in a bedroom; it was used commonly to designate the gatherings of the "précieuses", the intellectual and literary circles that formed around women in the first half of the 17th century. The first renowned salon in France was the Hôtel de Rambouillet not far from the Palais du Louvre in Paris, which its hostess, Roman-born Catherine de Vivonne, marquise de Rambouillet (1588–1665), ran from 1607 until her death.[3][4] She established the rules of etiquette of the salon which resembled the earlier codes of Italian chivalry. The salon evolved into a well-regulated practice that focused on and reflected enlightened public opinion by encouraging the exchange of news and ideas. By the mid-eighteenth century the salon had become an institution in French society and functioned as a major channel of communication among intellectuals.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salon_%28gathering%29
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Rules 1637 ... French readers desired

#7
Bertrand wrote:
Book 2:
p. 142
The author rambles about himself, possibly connected to the year 1635 (?). He also seem to love Tarots and Chess, but not the "stupid games".
http://books.google.com/books?id=35oPAA ... ts&f=false
What is peculiar is that he mentions on one side card games, then on the other side Tarots and Chess. je me fusse occupé aux cartes... . J'ai aussi aimé les jeux des Échecs et des Tarots. This doesn't seem connected to a specific year.
I saw this addressed elsewhere, "cartes" are not equal "tarots" in the language of the time. I agree, the father loved games of some complexity (so also tarots), but not stupid card games.

Between players with favor for complex games (I'm myself one) this is a normal behavior, so not unusual.
Reading it, I remembered spotted this one back in january but didn't spend any time studying it.
Very interesting link, I've difficulties to catch up all this information in short time, thanks. For the moment I'm a little bit exited about
En 1655 dans le Trésor de recherches et antiquitez gauloises et françoises de Pierre Borel une orthographe peu courante, Tharauts:

"Tharauts & tarots, jeu de cartes des Allemands.
Guill. de Sablé, en sa Diane Chasseresse

Quant à ma nymphe Leonor
Ie croi qu'il luy sonnient encor,
Comme aux tharauts m'en joija d'une"
http://books.google.com/books?id=sJBbAA ... &q&f=false
... which seems to state, that a French writer in 1655 seems to have the opinion, that Tarot would be a German game, which somehow would hardly be possible, if he understands "Germany" as we now understand Germany (all, what I know about Tarot history, that looks strange).
It becomes different, if he talks from "German Empire" ... or alternative possibility, possibly from the Gonzaga, which are somehow "Germans in France". These are meanwhile closely related to the current emperor family, the Habsburger and already earlier during 15th century, had a stronger German relation, for instance by Barbara of Brandenburg and other girls from Germany, which married in the course of time into the Mantovan family.

I informed me in these day, that the Gonzaga's sold Nevers to Mazarin in 1659, and that Nevers then became "France", which somehow seems to say, that it wasn't part of France before ... surely there are ways to find an explanation about this.


That's from 1477 and possibly it says, that Nevers is somehow more German than French (?), as part of Burgundy.
Nivernais, in France, the area administered from Nevers during the ancien régime, and until the French Revolution the last great fief still not reunited to the French crown. Bounded southwest by Bourbonnais, west by Berry, north by Orléanais, and east by Burgundy, Nivernais in 1790 became the département of Nièvre.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... /Nivernais

It seems to say, that Nevers and the Nivernais wasn't totally dominated by France, so it might to have been possible to call it "German" by the speaker of 1655.
Well, French geography isn't my strong side ... :-) ... perhaps you know it better.
All I noted then was that in the ballet were appearing only three cards from the trumps, and then the four kings, that is the seven Tarots as described in the 1637 rule.
the World represented as a big ball moving by itself, having kind of a human form, or represented by a Figure toppedwearing as a hat a globe , surrounded by the Zodiac as a scarf ; the Mat dressed as a Jester(Fou = Fol) ; and the Bagat as a mercer of bagatelles(trifles)
then follow the kings (along with their spouses), then chevaliers de coupes, épées, bâtons et deniers respectively dressed as Duke, Marquis, Count, Baron, and then the four Valets. After that follow cards from the standard pack. The procession ends with the Fool and the Bagat interacting with other cards, and the World pushing everyone back where they came out from.
The Mat as a Jester, and the World without evangelists, this doesn't sound like Tarot des Marseilles.
Marolles explains earlier what motivated this part of his Ballet. A "gentilhomme" to who he presented the preceding parts of his ballet, challenged him (with courtoisie) to write a ballet about cards, tarots and chess which "would be extremelly difficult, as it would be difficult to write ballet about Heraldry, Oracles and Emblems" - all examples of themes Marolles gave him beforehand. The next day Marolles presented his second part to said (and unnamed) gentilhomme.

Sorry my english is definitely terrible.
... :-) ... for research it's important, that you're understandable, and not, that you qualify as a poet ... :-)
You might also find worthy and related informations in Thierry Depaulis, "Quand l'abbé de Marolles jouait au tarot", Le Vieux Papier, fasc. 365, juil. 2002, p. 313-326. which I didn't had the pleasure to read - yet !

Bertrand
Yes, perhaps we should do something about it. This would be an improvement. Thank you very much.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Rules 1637 ... French readers desired

#8
Just a collection to the theme French development

I found this snippet from Dummett ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=ng7XAA ... CDEQ6AEwAg
"But the most striking piece of evidence for the popularity of the Tarot in France in the early 17th century is the account given by the king's physician Jean Heroard in his diary on November 12, 1615. On his arrival in Bordeaux, where he was to marry his fiancee Anne of Austria ..."

Does anybody know something?

**********

Louis XIII played with cards, says this rather intensive biography ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=BZiDLm ... &q&f=false
"When Louis had to stay indoors because of the weather, he was unusually restless. He tried to while away the time playing cards or chess, painting or doing pencil sketches, beating out a drumroll, playing trhe hunting horn, singing psalms, or dancing to songs. But as his physician noted:"The heavy snowfall, the wind, the bad weather stop him from going out. He goes here and there, plays chess and billiards. None of this satisfies him in the least."

No notes about tarots in this book. The wedding in Bordeaux had been a catastrophe.

********

30/12/1605 Henri IV Paris Lettres du Roi imposant les cartes, dés et tarots
http://www.histoirepassion.eu/spip.php?article61

********

!!!!!!!! Possibly a new find? 2 Links for the same production in 1538

1.
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/pr ... 1=standard&

p. 344 .... see "Tarot"


2.
32 1 53. A « don Juan d'Alman » , gentilhomme espagnol . inventeur de
plusieurs jeux de cartes subtils dont il donne souvent récréation au roi,
225 livres pour sa pension et entretien à la cour durant six mois, com-
mençant le 1"' janvier prochain,

http://www.archive.org/stream/collectio ... d_djvu.txt

It's not at the list of Ross at
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=502

Well, the report 2. doesn't mention Tarot, perhaps there's some suspicion necessary, if it really contains "Tarot"

*********************

Analyzes about Marolles and the Tarot passages
Un Precurseur: Michel De Marolles Abbe De Villeloin Sa Vie Et Son Oevre
By Collectif
http://books.google.com/books?id=SZuDqE ... ts&f=false
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Rules 1637 ... French readers desired

#9
This is an interesting source:

Mémoires de l'Académie de Stanislas (1850/51)
or
Memoires de La Society des sciences, lettres and arts de Nancy
... Recherches sun L'industrie en Lorraine,
et principalement dans le Departement de la Meurthe
par M. Henri Lepage

the interesting articles are:

Page 1.
Chapitre II
des Papeterie
as "somehow related to our theme" and ...

Page 51 till 105
Chapitre III
De la Fabrication des cartes a jouer
... that, what interest us

At page 74 and page 75 appears that, what interests us especially: There is noted a card maker in Lyon "Cathelin Geoffroy" ... well. that one, which is known as a card producer of some fragmented Tarot cards (oldest known French Tarot cards) in 1556 ..., but in the context of the article it is meanwhile 1599 (!!!), so possibly it's not the one Catelin Geofroy, but another with the same name or the same fabrication.
The text is focused on problems of Lorraine. It's a French text, and that creates personal problems ... :-)

Ross has this on his list
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=502

*******************

An excellent representation

Jouer autrefois:
essai sur le jeu dans la France moderne (XVIe-XVIIIe siècle)
by Élisabeth Belmas (2006)
http://books.google.com/books?id=Z5qCo6 ... ts&f=false

The intensive part seems to start at page 243 with "L'Industrie Cartière" and seems to last till page 306.

The author, a Professeur d'histoire moderne à l'université de Paris XIII, has a long list of publications
http://www.univ-paris13.fr/cresc/images ... publis.pdf
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Rules 1637 ... French readers desired

#10
The page http://www.fftarot.fr/index.php/Clubs.html
from the Federation Francois de Tarot
displays an interactive graphic, which shows the distribution of French Tarot clubs nowadays, here mirrored only as jpg-file.

Image


There are 375 clubs included. Very dark green means most (above 10 clubs, the highest value is 14) ... white means nothing, very light green means 1 club.
The connected 3 dark fields at the right middle have together 36 clubs, in other words about 10% of the total, which are 375 clubs.

It's naturally a not safe conclusion, if one relates from the modern distribution of Tarot to the historical development to the game in France, but ...



The map is of 1477 and we see the Burgundian territory (brown-orange) in that, what is now called France. We see, that modern Tarot distribution and it's most hottest spot (the 3 dark green fields at the other map) seem to extend according the old Burgundian "nose" in the country, running towards Nevers, where once Marolles wrote the first Tarot rules for his "princess" in 1637.
Lyon, the old dominant playing card production place, belongs to the smaller region between the 3 other dark green fields, the Rhone departement (with 9 clubs, so similar strong as the other 3 dark-green fields), so one can assume, that Tarot playing developed likely from Lyon, and that one can still see it, observing the modern Tarot club distribution.

A speaker of 1655 calls Tarot a German game. The speaker had been Pierre Borel, about which Wikipedia has:
Pierre Borel (Petrus Borellius) (ca. 1620 – 1671)[1] was a French savant: a chemist (and reputed alchemist), physician, and botanist.
He concerned himself with an eclectic range of subjects: optics, ancient history, philology and bibliography. His biographers have tended to deplore his spreading of himself over so many areas.
...
He became a doctor of medicine at the University of Montpellier in 1640. In 1654 he became physician to the King of France, Louis XIV.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Borel

As he became in 1654 part of the court, and so in 1655 he presented "somehow" the general opinion of the court, as it seems, that he was also accepted as a historian, this hardly could have been just an unreflected stupid opinion. In his special sort of dictionary "Trésor de recherches et antiquitez gauloises et françoises", in which the Tarot passage occurs, he also notes and shortly explains other games, I counted the appearance of "jeu" 27 times.
http://books.google.com/books?id=sJBbAA ... navlinks_s

I personally would assume, that he spoke from the Nevers-family as "German", cause the Gonzaga-family was closely connected by various marriages to the Habsburgers, which per se should have been "Germans" ... what else (... .-) ... although most modern German would likely assume, that this means "Österreicher" - Austrians).

I could imagine, that the Nevers (alias Gonzaga) family had a strong participation on the distribution of the game. Generally there are these French-Italian developments:

In the 1530's till 1589: Wedding of Katharina de Medici - naturally from Italy - with the Dauphin.
She is Queen in the year 1547 ... in 1559 she becomes the important Kings-mother, as her husband died this year. She and her 3 sons are finished in 1589.

In 1565 we've the marriage of a Gonzaga (from Northern Italy) with the heiress of Nevers (also partly with Italian ancestors, in Ferrara).

In 1600 Maria of Medici - naturally from Italy - married Henri IV, King of France. The King was assassinated 1610, after his death the important Florentian Concino Concini - naturally from Italy - became minister of the state. He was killed 1617, his wife was beheaded ... on order of the young king Louis XIII.

Cardinal Mazarin (from Italy) took the power in 1643-1661 after the death Louis XIII.

So there were long periods with manifested Italian influence. The major influence would have been from Florence and the Medici ... but Florence seems to have had a dominant Minchiate game.
Actually the duke of Nevers, relative near to Lyon, the major distribution location for playing cards, might have been of more influence in the slow, but steady, success of the Tarot cards.

Gebelin in 1781 still speaks of Tarot as a game played in Germany, Italy and Provence, in Paris it is unknown.

From modern Germany only Baden-Würtemberg (Southern-Western edge, near Lorraine, near to the 3 dark green departements, in direction to Lyon) has a still-living tradition of Tarot version called Cego (with 54 cards, from these 22 trumps). There is a "Tarock-Version" in Bavaria, but it is played with other cards (36 usual German suits cards).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests

cron