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Re: A plausible etymologie of the word "TAROT"

Posted: 11 Oct 2010, 09:47
by mikeh
Thanks for the clarifications, Ross and Huck. I somehow missed Ross's reference.

Re: A plausible etymologie of the word "TAROT"

Posted: 19 Oct 2010, 10:30
by Langustl
Hi guys

I got another story about the etymologie of the word "Tarot". The cards came to Europe from the arabian culture, Asia, Persia via Egypt. In the arabian language we got the word "taraha" طَرَحَ, what means something like throwing/hitting cards on the desk like the arabian soldiers did. So just meaning "playing cards". This word, only submitted by speaking, transformed to "Tarot". In the beginning Tarot was nothing like a simple game (Mameluk cards), and the major arcana where added in Europe later coming out of a christian tradition (holy images).

Re: A plausible etymologie of the word "TAROT"

Posted: 19 Oct 2010, 11:03
by mmfilesi
Hi Langustl! :)

One question. If the word tarot was used to designate the cards, why not be applied to all cards, but only to the game of tarot? and Why is used about 125 - 150 years after the arrival of the cards in Europe?

Re: A plausible etymologie of the word "TAROT"

Posted: 19 Oct 2010, 11:25
by Langustl
Hi mmfilesi

I guess it could be the first submitted name for cards, but as in all those cases things develope very personaly. People got the cards by accidant, because somebody copied it somewhere, but got no informations about it, or chose another name, cause this name was to strange for the simple people, .... It´s always mysterious how and which informations become popular and which not. But I don´t really know, I just find it a very likely explanation.

p.s. maybe in the first time this game only was a game of the simple people, and they used their own name. And than after this 125/150 years it came into the focus of the educated ones. And now they asked for the original name, cause they knew, it came from Egypt with the ships and got the "tahara". Possible?

Re: A plausible etymologie of the word "TAROT"

Posted: 19 Oct 2010, 12:53
by mmfilesi
I dont know... :-? It seems complicated, friend.

Re: A plausible etymologie of the word "TAROT"

Posted: 19 Oct 2010, 13:36
by Huck
Langustl wrote:Hi mmfilesi

I guess it could be the first submitted name for cards, but as in all those cases things develope very personaly. People got the cards by accidant, because somebody copied it somewhere, but got no informations about it, or chose another name, cause this name was to strange for the simple people, .... It´s always mysterious how and which informations become popular and which not. But I don´t really know, I just find it a very likely explanation.

p.s. maybe in the first time this game only was a game of the simple people, and they used their own name. And than after this 125/150 years it came into the focus of the educated ones. And now they asked for the original name, cause they knew, it came from Egypt with the ships and got the "tahara". Possible?
Guten Tag Langgustl,

there exist about 20 different interpretations, how this word developed.

In context to playing cards it was first used (to our knowledge) by Alfonso d'Este in Ferrara in June 1505, then a half year later by the same court and parallel to this also in a production in Avignon (also 1505). Then there was a pause of 10 years and in 1515/16 it reappeared again in Ferrara (still ruled by Alfonso). We can't call this use "far spread", it was a very specific word, likely only used by few speakers and it definitely appeared at two locations not to near to each other. So it's somehow logical to search for a specific communicative process, in other words a speaker, who had visited both locations.

There we have Alfonso, who in 1504 visited France and England, definitely visiting the high courts there with enough opportunity to play cards. If the French had a specific word for these cards, Alfonso might have adapted this word. France and Ferrara developed in this time a closer alliance with Ferrara as the weaker part, it might be, that Alfonso's choice to name his cards "Taroch cards" mirrors the political conditions of the moment, it's a gesture toward the new political friends.

Alfonso's father Ercole had died in January 1505 and Alfonso took the position as new duke. It's observable in the history of the earlier Trionfi card document, that likely each "new signore" or "duke" of Ferrara since Leonello 1441/1442 accompanied the begin of his reign with the production of a new Trionfi deck, likely cause they generally changed something in the family heraldic with a new duke (for instance: new money). So Alfonso's production of a playing card deck in June 1505 follows some internal and traditional family logic.
The Ferrarese production was - as it seems - mirrored by a polite French gesture with a French production, well understandable on the background, that the region of Lyon-Avignon had developed the most modern playing card industry of Europe between 1490 - 1510.

Now Ross has recently discovered an earlier use of the word "Tarocus" used in a "negative" sense by a Maccoroni poet (Maccoroni poets had some creative ways to use language) ... the described person in the poem shows a butal behavior. The poet died 1499, so the poem must have been written before 1499. About this poet it might be assumed, that he had a negative opinion about the French people, well understandable by the fact, that he had a background influenced by the Milan and Pavia courts.
The French had gotten their bad Italian image with the invasion to Italy in 1494/95. Then a battle happened near Fornovo at the river Taro ... which delivered a deciding result, which caused, that the French soldiers had to leave the country.
Naturally this wasn't forgotten in short time. The poet might have expressed in "singular manner" the described brutal man "a Tarocus" with the meaning "brutal as a French soldier", using an associative field, that was understood by contemporary speakers.

Alfonso, then 19 years old, had been involved in the French invasion 1494/95 at the side of the French on the command of his father Ercole. Naturally Ferrara had to suffer a little bit after the French left. Well, and the French surely also didn't forget very easily. After a new king appeared with some rights on Milan in 1498, the new military escapade was quickly prepared. And it had success, at least from the political perspective from 1505. Victory ... that means Triumph, and Triumph cards were the earlier name of the Tarot cards. The French naturally combined their French triumph with a "revenge for Fornovo", well, also for that, what happened at the river Taro. Instead taking "Trionfi" as a new French word, they called it ... as it seems ... Taraux. Somehow Ferrara cooperated, staying a close French ally for a longer time (even after the the Pavia defeat ... "In April 1528, Ercole d'Este married Renée of France, the second daughter of Louis XII, King of France").

As we know, this word didn't become immediately successful, but later.

They naturally only needed to print their preferred word on some paper, which covered French export decks. The more these decks were sold, the more the word Taraux would become respected and used ...

... .-) ... what do you think, what's nearer? An Egyptian "tahara" or an important battle nearby in close time?

Here is a report to the important documents at the d'Este courts:
http://trionfi.com/0/p/23/

Re: A plausible etymologie of the word "TAROT"

Posted: 19 Oct 2010, 14:26
by mmfilesi
Great Huck! %%-

+++

Another important detail.

ROSS:
The story of the 1505 reference begins in 1955, when Hyacinthe Chobaut published an article "Les maître-cartiers d'Avignon". He noted that there was a reference to "cartes communément appelées taraux" (cards colloquially known as taraux) in a record there. Chobaut neglected to provide a transcription of the original document in his appendices however. Thierry Depaulis rediscovered Chobaut's article in the late 1980s and tried, in vain, to find the reference. A few years later however, an archivist in Avignon with whom Thierry had been working, found the reference - for 1505, not 1507! So the error was either Chobaut's or the typsetter's, but in any case the story had a happy ending.
This means, taraux is not for 1505, but before.

Re: A plausible etymologie of the word "TAROT"

Posted: 19 Oct 2010, 15:24
by Huck
mmfilesi wrote: ROSS:
The story of the 1505 reference begins in 1955, when Hyacinthe Chobaut published an article "Les maître-cartiers d'Avignon". He noted that there was a reference to "cartes communément appelées taraux" (cards colloquially known as taraux) in a record there. Chobaut neglected to provide a transcription of the original document in his appendices however. Thierry Depaulis rediscovered Chobaut's article in the late 1980s and tried, in vain, to find the reference. A few years later however, an archivist in Avignon with whom Thierry had been working, found the reference - for 1505, not 1507! So the error was either Chobaut's or the typsetter's, but in any case the story had a happy ending.
This means, taraux is not for 1505, but before.
No, IT IS FROM 1505, not before and not 1507.
3 documents from 1505, 2 of Ferrara ("taroch" ... reported by Franceschini), 1 from Avignon ("taraux" ... Chobaut/Depaulis)

There was an earlier misunderstanding, which took 1507 as correct.

http://trionfi.com/0/p/23/

Re: A plausible etymologie of the word "TAROT"

Posted: 19 Oct 2010, 16:17
by mmfilesi
NO :) .

1) communément = commonly

http://www.wordreference.com/fren/commun%C3%A9ment

2) If the word is "communément", must necessarily take time in use.

Re: A plausible etymologie of the word "TAROT"

Posted: 20 Oct 2010, 00:36
by Huck
mmfilesi wrote:NO :) .

1) communément = commonly

http://www.wordreference.com/fren/commun%C3%A9ment

2) If the word is "communément", must necessarily take time in use.
Ah, I understand what you mean ... ok.

The document speaks of Avignon.

Ross searched earlier for an explanation, that Taraux might have developed from the small location Tharaux (earlier spelled Taraux) about 70 km from Avignon. Ross mentions about 30 known card makers in Avignon between 1441 - 1518), from which "several" appear to have come from the diocese of Uzés, to which also Tharaux belongs (and these were all active in 1507). So a possible card maker "Mister x from Taraux" might have published the deck under his name.
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t= ... ignon+1505

Ross reports further about the card makers in Avignon
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t= ... ignon+1505
Chobaut continues - "Around 1475-1480... the number of master cardmakers multiplies in Avignon. Some learned their craft here, while others came from all over: Jean Barat, from the diocese of Ivrea (1473-1481); Guillaume Bal or Bar, from the diocese of Tarantaise (1485-1502); Jean Janin, from the diocese of Besançon (1477-1485); Antoine Deleuze (de Illiceto), painter and cardmaker, from Fontarèche in the diocese of Uzès (1473-1520), and even a woman, Catherine Auribeau, 'carteria', widow of the master Raynaud Silvi (1480-1510), etc...

"The most important producers of this epoch are : Pierre Perouset, painter decorator, cardmaker and merchant furrier, from Vienne (1481-1506), and Jean Fort or Le Fort (1488-1510), originally from the diocese of Paris, or perhaps earlier from Bernay in the diocese of Lisieux, who each had numerous apprentices. One finds beside them Jean Chaudet, from the diocese of Vienne (1483-1497); Jean Brunet, merchant mercier and cardmaker, from the diocese of Geneva (1481-1498), then his son Jean (1517-1521); Charles Charvin, from the same diocese (1497-1517); Antoine Filhat, originally from the diocese of Belley (1497-1520); Léonard Nicolay, from the diocese of Limoges (1500-1515), etc...

"Many of these specialists probably came from the Lyonnais center, very important for the fabrication of cards in the 15th century. The documents will show us that the production of cards was very abundant in Avignon between 1480 and 1515, even if, - to my knowledge at least, - no playing card preserved today in either public or private collections today is witness of it."
(pp. 9-10).

1505. December. The first known reference anywhere to cards called "taraux" (a little earlier in the year, in Ferrara, "tarocchi" are mentioned for the first time). Cardmaker Jean Fort (mentioned above), in Avignon, agrees to send various items to Pinerolo (in Savoy/Piedmont, near Turin), including 48 packs of cards "commonly called taraux".

Chobaut - "This period of prosperity (for the Avignonnais cardmakers) ceased between 1510 and 1520. Already in 1506, Pierre Perouset had gone bankrupt, his possessions were sold; beginning in 1510 Jean Fort abandonned the profession of cardmaker to devote himself entirely to haberdashery; some masters equally gave themselves over to other activities; many left Avignon, which they abandonned no doubt to find their fortune in other towns."

This abrupt decline was no doubt due to the massive production in Lyon.
This post was from later (27-06-2006) and there's the card maker noted as Jean Fort and he's not from Taraux.

**************************

There's a list from Schreiber about French makers (1937), not updated according Ross' and Depaulis studies:
http://trionfi.com/tarot/0p-early-playi ... /index.php

It's obvious also from this earlier list, that Lyon, Toulouse and Avignon are dominant French productions. For Avignon it has to be noted, and it is important, that it still had been papal territory in 1505 (and till much later).

So we have to take a look at a specific biography:
http://www2.fiu.edu/~mirandas/bios1471.htm#Dellarovere


Pope Julius, Pope since 1503

Nephew of Pope Sixtus IVand he came from the region of Savona, which is nearly France ... and which has no far distance to Avignon (400 km). More than this: He became cardinal (1471) and Sixtus' man for French matters (already in 1472).
"Named bishop of Avignon on May 23, 1474; became its first archbishop when the see was elevated that rank, November 20, 1475; occupied the see until his election to the papacy."
Well, he had a lot of other functions, too.

When Alexander VI became pope, Julius was his opponent. He soon disappeared ...
on April 23, 1494, he embarked for Genoa, reached Avignon and united with the king of France against Pope Alexander VI. In September 1494, he went to Asti and joined King Charles VIII of France, accompanying him to Rome on December 31st. A convention between the pope and the French king stipulated that Cardinal Della Rovere kept Ostia, the legation of Avignon and all his benefices; the cardinal remained with the king and accompanied him from Marino to Naples on January 28, 1496; later, again to Rome on June 1st, when the monarch went to the Vatican palace; and then to France. The following year, 1497, it was rumored in the French court that the king wanted to make Cardinal Della Rovere pope; in March 1497, Pope Alexander VI threatened the cardinal with the suspension of all his benefices; they reconciled the following June. In October 1498, the cardinal received in Avignon Cesare Borgia, duke of Valentinois, son of the pope, and worked towards the marriage of Cesare and the daughter of the king of Naples, which fell through. He helped in the signature of an agreement between France and Venice on February 9, 1499. Named administrator of the see of Savona, September 20, 1499; occupied the post until January 24, 1502. He accompanied King Louis XII of France to Milan on October 6, 1499. He received several benefices of Cardinal Ascanio Sforza, who was imprisoned in Bourges by order of the French king. Administrator of the see of Lucca from November 6, 1499 until August 29, 1501. Administrator of the see of Vercelli, January 24, 1502 until his elevation to the papacy. In July 1502, the cardinal broke with the pope again. Protector of the Order of the Friars Minor (Franciscans). After the death of Pope Alexander VI, he arrived in Rome on the evening of September 3, 1503, after ten years of exile.


The French aggression towards Italy since 1494 has definitely a lot to do with Pope Julius. And Avignon has a lot of touch with Pope Julius. It's hardly imaginable, that Avignon had a well running and growing playing card industry and that the earlier cardinal didn't note it.

We have a Tarocchi game, which shows Rovere heraldic, actually even two:

Image


Image


The Rovere oak-tree, as it appears in the 6 Cicognara cards ... these mean NOT the six added cards of the Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo deck, but a deck in the possession of the collector ....

http://autorbis.net/count-leopoldo-cicognara
... Count Antonio Cicognara, from which he reproduced 6 cards, and in the so called Leber Tarocchi

Article
http://trionfi.com/0/h/51/

Cards
http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/leber/

These both decks are a little bit confusing, somehow it stays a riddle, if one should date the Leber Tarocchi (or a forerunner) as early as the period ca. 1473, so in the phase, when all these young nephews of Sixtus IV discovered all these funny possibilities in their role of being a nephew of the current pope, or in the period of Julius II (1503-1513).

The official theories (not from Trionfi.com) about the Leber Tarocchi prefer a "begin of 16th century", so in the period of Julius II.
There's definitely a relationship between Leber Tarocchi and the six cards from Cicognara, however, if one feels tempted to conclude from the style of these six cards to any far reaching theory, he may be warned, that this six picture of the cards are only reproductions of Cicognara and experience (Merlin etc.) tells us, that reproductions might be very different in style as the real objects, which Cicognara possessed.

Putting all these things together, Avignon 1505, Jean Fort and his production, the dominance of Julius on Avignon over a longer period of 30 years, his successful attempt to gain the title of pope in 1503, the increasing playing card industry in Avignon, the riddle of the sudden bankrupts of Avignon card makers after Pope Julius left Avignon and became finally a French foe, the engagement of Julius as a famous art commissioner (Sixtine chapel), the existence of Tarot cards with Rovere heraldic .... then ...

The noted card production in Avignon 1505 might have something to do with the Leber Tarocchi.

Alright ... what's about Julius II and Alfonso d'Este?

Julius worked definitely on the project, that not Alfonso, but one of his brothers became heir of Ercole d'Este, who was still living in 1503, when Julius II. became pope. Alexander VI. (foe of Julius) had been poisoned, also Cesare Borgia, who survived. Alfonso had married Lucrezia Borgia on pressure of the Borgia side in spring 1502 ... and Ferrara got a lot of money for it.
So there was a Borgia-Este relation in the case that Alfonso got the title, and the shadow of the earlier Borgia-pope was still strong and Julius was interested to keep this shadow weak. He preferred a brother of Alfonso, Ferrante, and he wished that his own daughter should marry him ...

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=503

.... in other words, he wished to turn the table, not a Borgia-Este should reign in Ferrara, but a Rovere-Este combination. An understandable interest from the side of Julius II.

Well, it took some time to reach the position:

August 18, 1503 - Alexander VI. died (nephew to Callistus III 1455-1458)
September 22, 1503 - election of Francesco TODESCHINI-PICCOLOMINI as Pius III (nephew to Pius II 1458-64)
October 18, 1503 - death of Pius III
November 1, 1503 - election of Pope Julius II (nephew to Sixtus IV 1471-84)

Julius worked on this alternative, but it didn't work. Alfonso got the title (January 1505), Julius had been too late to interfere with a marriage proposal. Well, we might assume, that Julius thought, that it wasn't too late to solve the general problem.

Ferrante attempted a somehow stupid riot against Alfonso in late summer 1506, very likely with Julius hidden very far in the background. Alfonso defended well, Ferrante and another brother Giulio found an order to executed, but were released to prison, right below the kitchen in the Este castle ... well under control. We have to imagine, that Alfonso had pressed a lot out of Ferrante, and if Julius was in the background, we have to imagine, that Alfonso knew about it. With a living Ferrante as a witness he could press the Pope with the possibility, that he would cause a public scandal about his participation in the plot.

Short after this Julius attacked Bologna and the Bentivoglio, a longer time alliance to the Este in Ferrara (40 km), the Bentivoglio refugees found a helping hand in Ferrara. But he became more diplomatic towards Ferrara short after. In the soon following war against Venice we see Julius in alliance with France and Ferrara - since 1508. Julius changed position in 1510, again turning the table ... with success this time. The French were driven from Italy, Ferrara found itself isolated ... but the French came back in 1515. New Taroch cards in Ferrara.

If we assume, that the French "taraux" reply in December 1505 on the "taroch" activity in June 1505 was more connected to Julius II than to the general France, then the interpretation of the event gets rather complicated, full embedded in the intrigues of the time and the play of emotions like "false friendship", "how to manipulate an opponent" and other strategic components, very difficult to judge from our distant position.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the ... of_Cambrai