Re: A plausible etymologie of the word "TAROT"
Posted: 11 Oct 2010, 09:47
Thanks for the clarifications, Ross and Huck. I somehow missed Ross's reference.
Over 500 years of history in 78 cards
Guten Tag Langgustl,Langustl wrote:Hi mmfilesi
I guess it could be the first submitted name for cards, but as in all those cases things develope very personaly. People got the cards by accidant, because somebody copied it somewhere, but got no informations about it, or chose another name, cause this name was to strange for the simple people, .... It´s always mysterious how and which informations become popular and which not. But I don´t really know, I just find it a very likely explanation.
p.s. maybe in the first time this game only was a game of the simple people, and they used their own name. And than after this 125/150 years it came into the focus of the educated ones. And now they asked for the original name, cause they knew, it came from Egypt with the ships and got the "tahara". Possible?
This means, taraux is not for 1505, but before.The story of the 1505 reference begins in 1955, when Hyacinthe Chobaut published an article "Les maître-cartiers d'Avignon". He noted that there was a reference to "cartes communément appelées taraux" (cards colloquially known as taraux) in a record there. Chobaut neglected to provide a transcription of the original document in his appendices however. Thierry Depaulis rediscovered Chobaut's article in the late 1980s and tried, in vain, to find the reference. A few years later however, an archivist in Avignon with whom Thierry had been working, found the reference - for 1505, not 1507! So the error was either Chobaut's or the typsetter's, but in any case the story had a happy ending.
No, IT IS FROM 1505, not before and not 1507.mmfilesi wrote: ROSS:This means, taraux is not for 1505, but before.The story of the 1505 reference begins in 1955, when Hyacinthe Chobaut published an article "Les maître-cartiers d'Avignon". He noted that there was a reference to "cartes communément appelées taraux" (cards colloquially known as taraux) in a record there. Chobaut neglected to provide a transcription of the original document in his appendices however. Thierry Depaulis rediscovered Chobaut's article in the late 1980s and tried, in vain, to find the reference. A few years later however, an archivist in Avignon with whom Thierry had been working, found the reference - for 1505, not 1507! So the error was either Chobaut's or the typsetter's, but in any case the story had a happy ending.
Ah, I understand what you mean ... ok.mmfilesi wrote:NO .
1) communément = commonly
2) If the word is "communément", must necessarily take time in use.
This post was from later (27-06-2006) and there's the card maker noted as Jean Fort and he's not from Taraux.Chobaut continues - "Around 1475-1480... the number of master cardmakers multiplies in Avignon. Some learned their craft here, while others came from all over: Jean Barat, from the diocese of Ivrea (1473-1481); Guillaume Bal or Bar, from the diocese of Tarantaise (1485-1502); Jean Janin, from the diocese of Besançon (1477-1485); Antoine Deleuze (de Illiceto), painter and cardmaker, from Fontarèche in the diocese of Uzès (1473-1520), and even a woman, Catherine Auribeau, 'carteria', widow of the master Raynaud Silvi (1480-1510), etc...
"The most important producers of this epoch are : Pierre Perouset, painter decorator, cardmaker and merchant furrier, from Vienne (1481-1506), and Jean Fort or Le Fort (1488-1510), originally from the diocese of Paris, or perhaps earlier from Bernay in the diocese of Lisieux, who each had numerous apprentices. One finds beside them Jean Chaudet, from the diocese of Vienne (1483-1497); Jean Brunet, merchant mercier and cardmaker, from the diocese of Geneva (1481-1498), then his son Jean (1517-1521); Charles Charvin, from the same diocese (1497-1517); Antoine Filhat, originally from the diocese of Belley (1497-1520); Léonard Nicolay, from the diocese of Limoges (1500-1515), etc...
"Many of these specialists probably came from the Lyonnais center, very important for the fabrication of cards in the 15th century. The documents will show us that the production of cards was very abundant in Avignon between 1480 and 1515, even if, - to my knowledge at least, - no playing card preserved today in either public or private collections today is witness of it."
1505. December. The first known reference anywhere to cards called "taraux" (a little earlier in the year, in Ferrara, "tarocchi" are mentioned for the first time). Cardmaker Jean Fort (mentioned above), in Avignon, agrees to send various items to Pinerolo (in Savoy/Piedmont, near Turin), including 48 packs of cards "commonly called taraux".
Chobaut - "This period of prosperity (for the Avignonnais cardmakers) ceased between 1510 and 1520. Already in 1506, Pierre Perouset had gone bankrupt, his possessions were sold; beginning in 1510 Jean Fort abandonned the profession of cardmaker to devote himself entirely to haberdashery; some masters equally gave themselves over to other activities; many left Avignon, which they abandonned no doubt to find their fortune in other towns."
This abrupt decline was no doubt due to the massive production in Lyon.
on April 23, 1494, he embarked for Genoa, reached Avignon and united with the king of France against Pope Alexander VI. In September 1494, he went to Asti and joined King Charles VIII of France, accompanying him to Rome on December 31st. A convention between the pope and the French king stipulated that Cardinal Della Rovere kept Ostia, the legation of Avignon and all his benefices; the cardinal remained with the king and accompanied him from Marino to Naples on January 28, 1496; later, again to Rome on June 1st, when the monarch went to the Vatican palace; and then to France. The following year, 1497, it was rumored in the French court that the king wanted to make Cardinal Della Rovere pope; in March 1497, Pope Alexander VI threatened the cardinal with the suspension of all his benefices; they reconciled the following June. In October 1498, the cardinal received in Avignon Cesare Borgia, duke of Valentinois, son of the pope, and worked towards the marriage of Cesare and the daughter of the king of Naples, which fell through. He helped in the signature of an agreement between France and Venice on February 9, 1499. Named administrator of the see of Savona, September 20, 1499; occupied the post until January 24, 1502. He accompanied King Louis XII of France to Milan on October 6, 1499. He received several benefices of Cardinal Ascanio Sforza, who was imprisoned in Bourges by order of the French king. Administrator of the see of Lucca from November 6, 1499 until August 29, 1501. Administrator of the see of Vercelli, January 24, 1502 until his elevation to the papacy. In July 1502, the cardinal broke with the pope again. Protector of the Order of the Friars Minor (Franciscans). After the death of Pope Alexander VI, he arrived in Rome on the evening of September 3, 1503, after ten years of exile.