Re: A plausible etymologie of the word "TAROT"

#11
We'll have to be patient to discover the English version in translation...

Meanwhile :an additif in the Italian version in Note 8 :

Una medesima disamina di questa possibile derivazione etimologica è stata compiuta nel 2006 da Jess Karlin in un dotto saggio visitabile al link http://www.tarotica.com/faq2.html


Traslation “A similar examination of this possible etymological derivation was done in 2006 by Jess Karlin in a scholarly essay to visit at link http://www.tarotica.com/faq2.html.

I have a question : my English is not good enough to conclude .
Did Jess Karlin discover : "tare=deduction" - it seems to be an old etymology.
But maybe am I wrong...

About Ross discovery, it is extraordinary and Vitali had mentioned in his article, about the word "Tarochus".


The originality of Vitali is that he puts in relation with the ancient and modern Italian word "Tarato", meaning the some thing : I don’t know if someone has already mentioned this report but I do not think so.
Vitali appears to be the first to find the meaning "tarato" linking it clearly to "tarochus".

This is his originality. :x @};-

I now expect other historians to give their point of view.

Best to all


Alain BOUGEAREL
http://www.sgdl-auteurs.org/alain-bouge ... Biographie

Re: A plausible etymologie of the word "TAROT"

#12
Alain wrote
I have a question : my English is not good enough to conclude .
Did Jess Karlin discover : "tare=deduction" - it seems to be an old etymology.
But maybe am I wrong...
Tare=deduction is old, to be sure; it is given in my Webster's New World Dictionary, published 1967.
tare n. Fr.; It. & Sp. tara; Ar. tarhah < taraha, to reject. 1. The weight of a container, wrapper, box, truck, etc. deducted from the total weight to determine the weight of the contents or load. 2. the deduction of this.
Another question is (and perhaps this is what you were asking): How old is the proposed etymology tarot=tare/tarah? I don't know, but it is in the 2nd edition of Le Robert Dictionnaire historique de la langue française , 1985, one of Karlin's sources, in her footnote 11. After citing her, I posted a scan of the relevant entries in Robert, both for "tarot" and "tare," at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=499&start=20#p6784. I don't know if the same derivation was in the earlier edition of Le Robert.

But the most important part of the "discard" argument (but without relating it to etymology) is in Dummett 1980, The Game of Tarot, pp. 426-427. Karlin cites him, but without a page reference and also leaving out an essential part of his discussion. In fact, Dummett himself leaves out part of the argument; he is only concerned with the "discard" rule and doesn't comment upon how it might relate to the introduction of the word "tarocchi" or "tarot." At viewtopic.php?f=11&t=502&start=20#p7182, I posted all of what I thought was the relevant passage in Dummett, highlighting the most important sentences.

I think that the passage in Dummett mostly answers mmfilesi's question. Dummett's argument is rather complex, and he writes in complex sentences. So I will summarize, including the bit that Dummett leaves out (which Karlin supplies) a the end. At that particular time, a little before 1505, there was need for a distinctive, unusual word to identify a particular type of deck used for a particular type of game involving discards (for which other decks could be used, but making for a less interesting game, the cardmakers would have hoped). The name of the original game with the discard feature was "Scartino" (from "scartare," Italian for "discard"), first documented in 1492 and quite popular for a time (last reference 1517). Games played with the 78 card Triumph decks at some point took over the discard feature from Scartino, Dummett hypothesizes. The makers (or players?) of the 78 card decks then needed a new name both (a) to distinguish their game from ones that used a regular suit for trumps, and (b) to emphasize the discard feature, in competition with Scartino. So they took the Arabic-derived synonym for "scartino"--"tara," a word in use but probably not as common--and changed it to the catchier "tarocchi"; or else they went back to the Arabic "tarakh," as Karlin says it was pronounced--and applied that word to the game that already existed with the 78 card decks but now had the "discard" feature. Scartino then died out and tarocchi remained.

Unfortunately Karlin, in her account, does not mention the game Scartino, an essential part of the story. To my knowledge I am the only one, after Dummett, who has included that part of the puzzle, and I really want to emphasize it. Also, Dummett himself does not mention the connection between "scartare/Scartino" and "tara" or "tarakh," its Arab-derived near-synonym. Dummett is only concerned with the discard rule, and not the name-change. That part is supplied by Karlin--who in the process omits part of what Dummett says.

The argument actually has four parts: (1) the development of triumph games with no special trump suit, necessitating a new name of some kind; (2) the adoption of the discards rule; (3) the need to differentiate the game from Scartino, but also contrast the two; and (4) the synonony of tara/tarah/tarakh and scartare/Scartino. Dummett has all the parts except (4), Karlin and Vitali have all except (3). But the argument is stronger with the additon of (3), connected to (4) by synonymy and the need to differentiate the game from two other games rather than just one.

Dummett's main problem with his idea, that discards entered the game called tarocchi through the influence of Scartino, is that it would have required a coordinated effort in all four Italian centers of the game. Well, by then the game probably was fairly standardized, and people were used to playing very similar games in different cities. So a rule change could spread easily. If a name change came with the interesting rule change (a welcome name change, because the same name, Triumphs, was being used for different games), there would have been even more impetus to make both rule and name conform in the various cities. There was in fact much interaction among cities.

Not only that, there was much interaction between Italy and France, so that a name-and-rule change in Italy (or even just one of these at first) could be adopted quickly in France. One mechanism that fits c. 1505 in particular is suggested by Huck (for the name) at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=502&start=10#p6841: it might have been via Alfonso d'Este, developing an alliance with France around the time of his father's 1505 death. Huck does not say which way it would have gone, from Italy to France or vice versa, but if the origin of both changes (rule and name) was by way of Scartino, it would have been from Italy to France, the Avignon cardmakers adopting a new fashion learned from Alfonso and his entourage, or from a French entourage returning from Ferrara. And there were other connections between the two countries. Cardmakers in France, already making good money off an Italian invention, would have continued to pay attention to ludic developments there.

Re: A plausible etymologie of the word "TAROT"

#14
mikeh wrote: Not only that, there was much interaction between Italy and France, so that a name-and-rule change in Italy (or even just one of these at first) could be adopted quickly in France. One mechanism that fits c. 1505 in particular is suggested by Huck (for the name) at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=502&start=10#p6841: it might have been via Alfonso d'Este, developing an alliance with France around the time of his father's 1505 death. Huck does not say which way it would have gone, from Italy to France or vice versa, but if the origin of both changes (rule and name) was by way of Scartino, it would have been from Italy to France, the Avignon cardmakers adopting a new fashion learned from Alfonso and his entourage, or from a French entourage returning from Ferrara. And there were other connections between the two countries. Cardmakers in France, already making good money off an Italian invention, would have continued to pay attention to ludic developments there.
Thanks, that you captured that, which was rather ignored.
Well, Alfonso makes a journey to France and England in 1504, definitely getting a lot of new impressions from the world (possibly experiencing, how "Tarot" and general Italian life and Ferrara was perceived in France; he could have found the word in its use). In January 1505 Ercole I d'Este, his father, died, Alfonso as heir had a lot to rule to grow up to his own improved "new importance". In July 1505 the "Tarocchi" card production followed ... we have evidence, that other Ferrarese rulers (Leonello, Borso, possibly also Ercole) also started their reign with Trionfi card productions, likely it had become a normal custom in the family, that with all the modifications of heraldic and impresa at such opportunities also a new playing deck had to appear as part of the "new program of the new duke") in such cases.
As Alfonso is described personally (introverted, avoiding "too much people", focused on his own interests and this had a clear military dimension), he didn't like "too much nonsense" of this kind, but left the public matters to the hands of his wife, Lucrezia Borgia, who definitely played the role of the attractive goddess of the court.

The political situation of 1505 is very complex, explosive as a powder-keg, although still peaceful in 1505. But in 1506 already the near Bologna is taken by the Pope, the friends Bentivoglio there are driven out and two brothers of Ercole take a seat in a lifelong prison for attempted riot before. Alfonso became an active factor in the following years as the "prince with good canons".

I would assume, that the word comes from France ... The double appearance in 1505 in rather distant locations doesn't allow too much choice, only persons, which had been at both places could have caused it or "are related". Alfonso is likely the most centered person in this problem, especially as he has an "event" in 1505.

But actually the whole question is a sort of tomato on the market place, which was already touched by too much people with their dirty hands ... .-) ... when they're 20 totally different arguments, what shall the 21st help in this matter?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: A plausible etymologie of the word "TAROT"

#15
Alain wrote
About Ross discovery, it is extraordinary and Vitali had mentioned in his article, about the word "Tarochus".

The originality of Vitali is that he puts in relation with the ancient and modern Italian word "Tarato", meaning the some thing : I don’t know if someone has already mentioned this report but I do not think so.
Vitali appears to be the first to find the meaning "tarato" linking it clearly to "tarochus".
As I recall, one stumbling block to "tarochus" as the inspiration for "tarocchi" was that there was no verified use of the word prior to 1505, when "tarot" and "tarocchi" came into use. The earliest confirmed use was 25 or so years after then, so that the influence might well have been the other way around, "tarocchi" leading to "tarochus." What is the earliest confirmed use for "tarato" meaning the same thing: trunk, blockhead, moron, etc.? I looked in what you quoted of Vitali and didn't see that information. Also, if you have earlier data for "tarochus" that would help, too. ("Tare," from the Arabic "tarah," goes back to at least 1318, according to Le Robert. I presume that the same is true for the Italian "tara," but I haven't checked.)

Re: A plausible etymologie of the word "TAROT"

#16
mikeh wrote:Alain wrote
About Ross discovery, it is extraordinary and Vitali had mentioned in his article, about the word "Tarochus".

The originality of Vitali is that he puts in relation with the ancient and modern Italian word "Tarato", meaning the some thing : I don’t know if someone has already mentioned this report but I do not think so.
Vitali appears to be the first to find the meaning "tarato" linking it clearly to "tarochus".
As I recall, one stumbling block to "tarochus" as the inspiration for "tarocchi" was that there was no verified use of the word prior to 1505, when "tarot" and "tarocchi" came into use. The earliest confirmed use was 25 or so years after then, so that the influence might well have been the other way around, "tarocchi" leading to "tarochus." What is the earliest confirmed use for "tarato" meaning the same thing: trunk, blockhead, moron, etc.? I looked in what you quoted of Vitali and didn't see that information. Also, if you have earlier data for "tarochus" that would help, too. ("Tare," from the Arabic "tarah," goes back to at least 1318, according to Le Robert. I presume that the same is true for the Italian "tara," but I haven't checked.)
It's not stumbling block. The earliest attested use comes from the late 15th century, probably the 1490s -
Ross Caldwell fait aussi remarquer que le poète italien Bassano Mantovano († av. 1499) utilise dans sa Maccheronea (dédiée à Gaspare Visconti, †1499) le mot tarochus au sens d' "idiot, imbécile" :
Erat mecum mea socrus unde putana
Quod foret una sibi pensebat ille tarochus
Et cito ni solvam mihi menazare comenzat

(trad. proposée par Ross Caldwell : "My mother-in-law was with me, and this idiot thought he could get some money out of her, so he started threatening me.")
> Paolo Antonio Tosi, Notizie biografiche e bibliografiche di tre poeti maccheronici del secolo XV, Milan, 1846, p. 16-18 ; Id. Maccheronee di cinque poeti italiani del secolo XV, Milan, 1864, p. 65-67 ; Octave Delepierre, Macaroneana ou mélanges de littérature macaronique des différents peuples de l'Europe, Paris, 1862, p. 251-253 ; Carlo Cordiè, ed., "I maccheronici prefolenghiani", dans Opere di Teofilo Folengo, vol. I, Milan, 1977, p. 999-1000 et "Glossario" sub "Tarocus", p. 1029
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=502&p=6857&hilit=tarocus#p6857

Bassano Mantovano, as noted above, died in 1499.

All of the books cited can be found in Google Books.
Image

Re: A plausible etymologie of the word "TAROT"

#17
mikeh wrote: As I recall, one stumbling block to "tarochus" as the inspiration for "tarocchi" was that there was no verified use of the word prior to 1505, when "tarot" and "tarocchi" came into use. The earliest confirmed use was 25 or so years after then ...
http://trionfi.com/0/p/23/

In 1515/16, so about 10 years, and then again in Ferrara.

The 1515/16 years have the correspondence, that French dominion returned to Italy in this time, which might have caused also the "return" of the game Tarocchi as a demonstration of Ferrarese friendship for the French. Ferrara had taken the side of France earlier, and had suffered for it, after the French troops left Italy.

So this might have been a "second later indication", that parts of the game concept and also the name came from France.

**************

In the 1515/16 documents, which relate to more than one production, but a whole series, the first is interestingly for the two brother prisoners, who lived below the kitchen of the Ferrara castle.
c. 20, 1515, 16th of May: "A Lazarin da Chastello per pagare tarochi e carte per li presum ... L.0.12.0" (Note: "Presum" means Don Ferrante and Don Giulio d'Este).
This might be actually a "10 years anniversary" for the moment, when all the trouble started (somehow in May 1505, rather short before the recorded Tarocchi card production).

1.1.1515 ... King Louis XII died

Wiki: "Battle of Marignano was fought during the phase of the Italian Wars (1494–1559) called the War of the League of Cambrai; and took place on 13 and 14 September 1515"

Naturally Francois I. needed some time to settle himself as new king. The Battle of Marignano was the deciding victory in Italy, ca. 15 km from Milan.

A second note about Taroch appears at ...
c. 36, 1515, 30th of August: "A Zoane Antonio cartaro per para due de carte tarochi et schartini ha mandato a Belriguardo per li Signori .. L.O. 16.5"
... so before Marignano. But it likely was clear then, that Louis intended to attack and this could raise Ferrarese hopes.

The other notes are from 1516.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: A plausible etymologie of the word "TAROT"

#20
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: Google Books +"Bassano mantovano" +1499 brings up some very good ones.
I see snippets, is that all ?

It seems, he studied in Ferrara till 1482? Later Pavia, Milan, also Turin? He wrote against the French ? Gaspare Visconti and he died the same year, 1499?
Gaspare was commissioner of Bramante. One passage seems to indicate, that the text was written 1493-95?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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