Re: The order of trumps

#31
There is now another 16th century tarocchi appropriati that SteveM found and identified as such (given that the author does not) in a recent book in English (published May 2016). See viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1104#p17004. Many, but not all, of the trumps are identified by name, but enough to show that it is in the B order. It is c. 1520s, making it perhaps the earliest known work of this type specifically from Venice.

Re: The order of trumps

#32
I have been in touch with Linda Carrol, who was able to provide me with the original Italian for the descriptions of the Ladies missing in the book. All trumps are listed by name, in B-Eastern order as one would expect for Venice. I have passed this information on to Ross and introduced him to Linda to carry on, as I felt he was more qualified to evaluate and get this new discovery 'out there' than I. Hopefully we shall all be updated as soon as he is able.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The order of trumps

#33
I stumbled about this ...

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=552&p=7877&hilit=notturno#p7877
mmfilesi in 2010:
2. 1521, Perugia: Notturno Napoletano. Gioco de triomphi ingenioso che fanno quattro compagni detti Delio Timbreo Castalio e Caballino con due sonetti in laude del Bembo composto per Notturno.

I cant find it.
I answered this:
That's a comedy written 1521. Franco Pratesi reported about it in the I.P.S.C journal more than 20 years ago. The text is called "rare", I don't know it.

For which reason ever, the list of trumps in the comedy is not complete (according Franco) ... either this was made artfully by the author or the author didn't knew any more trumps.
If I understand it correctly:

* Bagatella
* Matto, which is higher than "Imperator, Pope and Cardinal"
* Imperator
* Papa

* Fortezza
* Temperanza
* Giustizia
* Carro

* Rota
* Vecchio

That's it. The comedy proceeds 30 pages longer with mentioning further names, as Franco tells it. The "game comes from Spain" ... so it is said (not by Franco). Other cards (for instance "smaller arcana") are not mentioned. The "cardinal" stays not explained.

My idea of it ... possibly it's a part of the comedy, that the cards are of Spain and not complete (as "comical elements"). Franco's report is 20 years ago, the perception of Tarot was then different from nowadays. Or another way to interpret: It really was a Spanish game and it was attempted to play (or to "translate") it with Italian cards.
Or the whole has political background, which somehow related to "Spain" (= new Roman king Charles V.), in 1521 an interesting topic.

Any further understanding demands a new reading. Franco's source ...
"... a scarce booklet which existed in the 18th century in Capponi's library and whose reported title already indicates its interest for the history of tarot: Notturno Napolitano Gioco de trionfi, che fanno quattro compagni, detti Delio, Timbreo, Castalio, e Caballino, con due sonetti in laude del Bembo. Perugia per Cosmo da Verona detto il Bianchino s.a.(#). Therefore, it did not escape attention by the few Italian scholars who seriously attempted to collect and discuss the literary evidence about the game (#). Both Cian and Renier, however, could not examine a copy of the book, due to its rarity, and only mentioned the title as derived from the Capponi catalogue. Also in the known work by Sander (#) the booklet is only mentioned, under Caracciolo Antonio, among others by same author and printer, with the statement that any presence there of engravings was still unknown. Nowadays, more catalogues exist, and bibliographical researches are easier to carry out to the required depth. In this case, a copy of the book was found to exist in the British Library, where from a microfilm copy was obtained for study."
For your interest to have an object to compare with other rows it doesn't seem appropriate. It simply isn't clear, what this is about.
[/quote]

In the meantime Franco Pratesi published this rather old article at Trionfi.com:
http://trionfi.com/notturno-gioco-triophi
... and added a new one to this topic:
http://trionfi.com/notturno-tarocchi
... which mainly presented a part of the original.

*****************

This thread begin was an excellent work of Marcos Mendez Filesi, who already is inactive for some longer time. Maybe somebody else could open a thread like "OVERVIEW: The order of the trumps (II)" and work on an update of this collection, keeping the first post as a place, that he occasionally updates, if a new document appears.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The order of trumps

#34
mikeh wrote:There is now another 16th century tarocchi appropriati that SteveM found and identified as such (given that the author does not) in a recent book in English (published May 2016). See viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1104#p17004. Many, but not all, of the trumps are identified by name, but enough to show that it is in the B order. It is c. 1520s, making it perhaps the earliest known work of this type specifically from Venice.
Having been in touch with Linda Carroll I can confirm the list is complete:

“Ciasuna in capo havea varie corone / si come in uso fu nel tempo antico / d’imperatorj ala trionfal stagione.”

“Di Dandoli Cecilia asay benigna / veniva secondo lordine triomphale / portando seco la superba insegna.”

The ladies in their triumphal procession carry their crowns with the insignia of:

Mondo: Isabeta Diedo*
Giustitia: Paola Venier
Angelo: Isabetta Barbarigo
Sole: Cecilia Dandolo
Luna: Andriana Pesaro
Stella: Lucretia Venier
Foco: Elena Zane
Diavolo: Maria Caravello
Morte: little Quirini
Traditore: Marieta Capello
Tempo: Lucieta Soranza
Rota: Marina Emo
Forteza: Fontana di Barozi
Amore: Bianca Grimani
Caro Triompha;: Laureta Foscari
Temperantia: Maria Lion
Papa: Maria da Leze
Imperator: Isabeta Venier
Papessa: Marieta Bibbiena
Imperatrice: Hieronima Venier
Bagatela: Helena Zen
Mato: Laura Cocho

In the poem the Ladies come ashore by boat and in a triumphal procession, like those of the emperors of antiquity, surround the sleeping poet, each having their superb insignia upon their crowns. The poem is in Canonici Ital.36 in the Bodleian, fol. 49-53. Most folio's in the collection are dated 1520, but this is the date the collection was begun and not necessarily that in which the copyist made entries. The copyist is though to be Stefano Magno. I have passed what further information I have on to Ross and introduced him to Linda.

Some of these Venetian Ladies also appear in the Tarocchi Appropriati of the Troilo Pomeran. Triomphi de Pomeran da Cittadela composti sopra li terrocchi in laude delle famose gentil donne di Vinegia. 1534.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

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