Re: Update to TarotL History Information Sheet

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About the "Charles VI" or "Gringonneur" cards, I think it should now say "mid-15th century" and "probably Florence". "North Italian type" can also be removed (it's kind of meaningless).

About "censored by the Church" - we know now, thanks to Jean-Pierre Etienvre, that the Spanish Inquistion noted Tarots in 1568 and 1588 (Majorca), and found them sacrilegious, with the Majorcan Inquisitor "denouncing" them. I'm not sure if that means censorship or banning was enacted. About Bernardino of Siena and the "Bologna 1423" story, we know that the episode as told is apocryphal, but something like that probably happened. Finally, there are no known instances of Pope and Popess being singled out for censorship or change by any Church or civic authorities. We know that the subjects were sometimes changed or supressed, however, so we can assume that the subjects made certain people uncomfortable, so the cardmakers acted accordingly. It is just as likely to have been an overzealous city council member as it is an ecclesiastical authority, or maybe just cardmakers censoring themselves at certain times. The one instance where the Church is known to have got involved happened in Bologna in 1725, when the papal governor of the city ordered that cardmakers had to change the four Papi and the Angel into Moorish Satraps and a Lady respectively. Although not spelled out, the offense was clearly sacrilege; but the Papi included two popes and two emperors (no Popess), so the secular "Defenders of the Faith", the emperors, were also included in the blanket ban. The change of the Angel, which depicts the Last Judgement, to a Lady - possibly the governor was thinking of something like the woman on the French World card - was never done, and it remains an angel to this day.

About Tarot and divination, Fernando de la Torre's Spanish pack from the 1450s included a single Emperor, and he suggested the deck could be used for divinatory purposes - not a real Tarot, I know, but something maybe to put out there.

For Tarot specifically, after the Bolognese method (which Pratesi dated to before 1750 because of the presence of female pages, fantesche (singular fantesca), which are not attested in Bolognese lists of the 1750s onwards), the case of Anne Cauvin of Marseille in 1772 can be added. She was punished for the charlatanism of fortune-telling by being punished to sit in the central market square, in shackles, for an hour on three consecutive days, with a sieve around her neck and wearing a "bonnet surrounded by tarots", after which the tarots were to be torn up.

Decker and Dummett's "History of the Occult Tarot, 1870-1970" can be added to the bibliography.
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Re: Update to TarotL History Information Sheet

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hi Mary,

It surely deserves an improvement, but otherwise it's a sort of document of itself, presenting the state of research (or improvement of the common Tarot mind) at a specific time.

And TarotL has developed to a somewhat old-fashioned place, also somehow pirated by its new owner, who doesn't forget to mark the place with his own face which is quite contrary to the earlier neutral understanding and style of the group.

If somebody wishes to write a new (and better) Tarot History Information Sheet, anybody is free to do so, isn't that so?

The new relevant talking groups after TarotL had been Aeclectic and this one, as far I see it (anybody may add others, if he knows one).
Aeclectic somehow has ruined itself by too much moderator activity, at least in the Tarot History research part, something which was also true for TarotL at its time. Aeclectic's rules demand, that problems have to be solved backstage, a concept, which didn't really work or worked in the way, that finally one talker after the other dropped his activities ... at least it seems so, as a participant at aeclectic you really didn't note, if problems have occurred, as anything is done backstage. You simply see the persons disappear, or otherwise explained, you see "nothing" and you need some memory to remember, that times once were different.

The participation here is only small, I regret this, but this is probably due to the condition, that the topics have developed to a level of high specification ... which makes it difficult to enter for outsiders or beginners in the theme.

A History Information Sheet might help here a little bit.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Update to TarotL History Information Sheet

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Adding to that, what I wrote before:

It might be a good idea to create a "Tarot History Beginner's Suite" with some sort of restricted posting to keep a part of the suite representation in a way, that questions are quickly and "easy to understand" answered, just as a FAQ or as a small dictionary, which possibly leads with links to other information in the web (a good opportunity for instance to cooperate with the similar work at Tarotpedia and also some of the special work at Trionfi.com.
Another part should be the right place for questions (naturally not the complicated questions), this of course might be as chaotic as usual, as it's not the intention to exclude anything and it seems necessary to make occasional visitors feel at home with their specific problem.
Perhaps there are other ideas which lead to the result, that a visit to this part of the Forum might become interesting for beginners in the theme.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Update to TarotL History Information Sheet

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It's a really good (and thoughtful) idea to have a trustworthy foundation of tarot history FAQs at TH - there's so much contradictory information out there, and the best books on the subject are expensive and difficult to find. The obvious place to start looking is here, yet many discussions/threads have reached a specialized level that can seem exclusive and intimidating, even if one has a reasonable knowledge of tarot history.

Please though, something more straightforward than that 'inaccurate statement' layout over at TarotL.(%)

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: Update to TarotL History Information Sheet

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Huck, I like your idea of a "quick question" area here where visitors can ask a question and get information and/or links to help them on their own tarot history journey. I'm open to adding something like that and would appreciate feedback from other members on their thoughts.

Regarding the updating of the TarotL information sheet. I just reread it and think that even as it stands it is a very good document. I feel slightly uneasy about the tone regarding the "hermetic, heretical, or kabbalistic characteristics in the original tarot.", as I'm perhaps more skeptical of these than most; overall I'm thankful that the sheet is out there and has been a good foundation to build upon.

Re: Update to TarotL History Information Sheet

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Thanks for all the responses. I'll probably be updating the Info Sheet for my own uses—perhaps putting it in a different format. It's original intent was for publishers, authors and tarot teachers as a kind of check-list to make sure that the worst offenses in tarot "history" were no longer perpetuated. It intentionally was left light on facts and open to possibilities in those areas that authors should fill in through their own research. We simply wanted the most egregious misinformation to stop being thoughtlessly perpetuated (thus the format!).

I'm proud to say that we have made a significant difference in the publishing world and in many tarot classes through the Info Sheet. A great many people tell me that they hand it out to their students. It's designed to fit on one 11"x17" piece of paper folded in half or 2 sheets printed 2 sides. When I find notable offenses on the net I usually send them a link to the two versions now available. (This is not always appreciated :-B )

Of course, anyone can make up their own Info Sheet or FAQ—please do create a "Beginner's History" section here!

I'd appreciate any other suggestions as this material can also be used in a Tarot History FAQ or Sheet here.

Added: At the time the Info Sheet was created we were a very contentious group, with a lot of radical historical theories and arguments. That we were able to take everyone's position into consideration was a huge accomplishment, even though not everyone was perfectly satisfied with the result!