...

... 36 x 42 = 72 x 21

### Re: Lorenzo de Spirito: Libro del Sorte

#22I don't get your confusion. You roll the two dice to get a result in the wheel; you are directed to another one of 36 pages each with 42 new directions to 72 astrologers each with 22 answers. Obviously, there are 1512 unique answers, and 72 answers used twice.mmfilesi wrote:Yes, but the spheres are 36 spheres, each with 42 directions (equal 1512) and the astrologers are 72, each with 22 answers: equal 1584!Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:The two dice are only rolled in the wheels with 21 results, step 4 of the consultation. This leads to the spheres page that tells you which Astrologer to turn to, and which number on the Astrologer.

You'd have to go through the spheres to see which they are - I haven't done that yet (do I have to?).

### Re: Lorenzo de Spirito: Libro del Sorte

#23Sorry I cant explain better...

I try in spanish and then in English

Es literamente imposible que se vean 72 respuestas de los astrólogos. Desde las esferas SOLO podemos ver 1512 respuestas. Hay 72 a las que nunca se puede llegar.

***

72 cuestion of astrologi are inaccessible. You never can read it, because you only have 36 x 42 posibilities in the spheres.

I try in spanish and then in English

Es literamente imposible que se vean 72 respuestas de los astrólogos. Desde las esferas SOLO podemos ver 1512 respuestas. Hay 72 a las que nunca se puede llegar.

***

72 cuestion of astrologi are inaccessible. You never can read it, because you only have 36 x 42 posibilities in the spheres.

When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

### Re: Lorenzo de Spirito: Libro del Sorte

#24and 72 x 21 is not = 72 x 22Huck wrote:...

... 36 x 42 = 72 x 21

When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

### Re: Lorenzo de Spirito: Libro del Sorte

#25... ... naturally not, but a throw with two dice might have 22 possibilites ... counting the value "it didn't work" as one of the possibilities.mmfilesi wrote:and 72 x 21 is not = 72 x 22Huck wrote:...

... 36 x 42 = 72 x 21

Fanti's book is big and complicated and written in a language, that I don't understand very good - so it's rather difficult to control, what Fanti really presented. Also I remember, that I met a similar confusion in a similar system ... don't ask me which, I don't remember.

So I assume, that it "somehow" is part of the game and not an error.

Actually the results with the throw of two dice is a sort of subsystem of the binary code 2^6, which has 22 results at "left" and 22 results at the "right" and 20 results for the "middle", whereby the 22 results of the "left" mirror the 22 at the "right", so you've actually 22 pairs and the 20 results in the middle are also 10 pairs. By this pairing process you transmute 64 units into 32 ... this mathematical scheme was used in the Sepher Yetzirah with its "32 ways of wisdom".

And the 22 pairs of "left" and "right" include 21 possibilities of the two-dice-results, but also a 22th "very dominant" element, written in binary form by the pair 111111 - 000000.

... more to this:

http://trionfi.com/tarot/new-themes/sepher-yetzirah/

Huck

http://trionfi.com

http://trionfi.com

### Re: Lorenzo de Spirito: Libro del Sorte

#26I've taken a look at the Sotzmann article, a longer German work about Losbücher, which also reports about Fanti's work:

http://books.google.com/books?id=vLMEAA ... er&f=false

It comes to 74 (!) astrologi and to 1628 answers (= 74x22), also he refers to two alternatives, either divination according "dice rolling" (21 possibilities) or according the "hour of the question" (which would then have 24 , or, if one block of 3 hours was reduced to 1, would have 22). Perhaps these alternative methods explain the difference in the final construction of the answers.

*********

I counted. Indeed it are 74 (one page - Alazimini 2 is a double copy). The first "Atlante delli astrologi principe" sounds, as if it is not a "real astrolog" ... ... but then it would be 73 (which would fit somehow with 365 days for a year; 5x73 = 365). But each of the 74 units has 22 answers.

One is a an astrologa "Helisabeth Regina" ... it appears at the 50th place.

No. 6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22 + 28 + 40 are Sybils, totally 11 sybils

No. 6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22 is somehow similar to the pairing principle in the Boiardo Tarocchi poem (there are 2-4-6-8-10-12-14-16-18-20 and additionally 21 connected to women.

"22" (Tarot) + 28 (Montefeltro-system) + 40 (Minchiate) + 50 (Mantegna-Tarocchi) are system-numbers, which are known from other places.

It seems, that Fanti wished to express something with this form of sorting. "Atlante delli astrologi principe" would be a foolish element (0= Fool), 22 "Sybilla-Europa" would somehow express the function "World". Sybilla Amalthea reminds the foster-mother of Zeus. Sybilla Erithrea ... I don't know.

1. Atlante delli astrologi principe

Albategno astrologo

Dorothio astrologo

Abadon astrologo

Ptholomeo astrologo

Sybilla Persica

Haly astrologo

Sybilla Cumana

Azoroen astrologo

Sybilla Libyca

11. Beheco astrologo

Sybilla Tiburtina

Albumasar

Sybilla Delfica

Alphragano

Sybilla Samia

Alkindo

Sybilla Troiana

Alcabitio astrologo

Sybilla Frigia

21. Zael astrologo

22. Sybilla Europa

Hermete astrologo

Leopoldo astrologo

Thebit astrologo

Guido Bonato astrologo

Albubather astrologo

28. Sybilla Amalthea

Iulio Firmico astrologo

Hiparco astrologo

31. Ragiel astrologo

Peccairic astrologo

Antiesis astrologo

Haomar astrologo

Messehala astrologo

Accebari astrologo

Vullelio astrologo

Iginio astrologo

Zephar astrologo

40. Sybilla Erithrea

41. Almeguerra astrologo

Alhasen astrologo

Zaradest astrologo

Alfayat astrologo

Alfadal astrologo

Atabari astrologo

Herdedi astrologo

Bianchino astrologo

Alfonsorege astrologo

Helisabeth regina astrologa

51. Plenio Romano astrologo

Pietro d'Abano astrologo

Ceco d'Ascoli astrologo

Ioanne de Monte Regio astrologo

Zacuto astrologo

Nufil astrologo

Albumadi astrologo

Hericos astrologo

Harzeth astrologo

Anticos astrologo

61. Conofil astrologo

Alhezen astrologo

Mahomath astrologo

Azaroni astrologo

Tisil astrologo

Hyrechindo astrologo

Noci astrologo

Alyhar astrologo

Merphil astrologo

Alazimini astrologo (double page)

71. Ioffie astrologo

Azarafat astrologo

Alhazel astrologo

Licha astrologo

http://books.google.com/books?id=vLMEAA ... er&f=false

It comes to 74 (!) astrologi and to 1628 answers (= 74x22), also he refers to two alternatives, either divination according "dice rolling" (21 possibilities) or according the "hour of the question" (which would then have 24 , or, if one block of 3 hours was reduced to 1, would have 22). Perhaps these alternative methods explain the difference in the final construction of the answers.

*********

I counted. Indeed it are 74 (one page - Alazimini 2 is a double copy). The first "Atlante delli astrologi principe" sounds, as if it is not a "real astrolog" ... ... but then it would be 73 (which would fit somehow with 365 days for a year; 5x73 = 365). But each of the 74 units has 22 answers.

One is a an astrologa "Helisabeth Regina" ... it appears at the 50th place.

No. 6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22 + 28 + 40 are Sybils, totally 11 sybils

No. 6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22 is somehow similar to the pairing principle in the Boiardo Tarocchi poem (there are 2-4-6-8-10-12-14-16-18-20 and additionally 21 connected to women.

"22" (Tarot) + 28 (Montefeltro-system) + 40 (Minchiate) + 50 (Mantegna-Tarocchi) are system-numbers, which are known from other places.

It seems, that Fanti wished to express something with this form of sorting. "Atlante delli astrologi principe" would be a foolish element (0= Fool), 22 "Sybilla-Europa" would somehow express the function "World". Sybilla Amalthea reminds the foster-mother of Zeus. Sybilla Erithrea ... I don't know.

1. Atlante delli astrologi principe

Albategno astrologo

Dorothio astrologo

Abadon astrologo

Ptholomeo astrologo

Sybilla Persica

Haly astrologo

Sybilla Cumana

Azoroen astrologo

Sybilla Libyca

11. Beheco astrologo

Sybilla Tiburtina

Albumasar

Sybilla Delfica

Alphragano

Sybilla Samia

Alkindo

Sybilla Troiana

Alcabitio astrologo

Sybilla Frigia

21. Zael astrologo

22. Sybilla Europa

Hermete astrologo

Leopoldo astrologo

Thebit astrologo

Guido Bonato astrologo

Albubather astrologo

28. Sybilla Amalthea

Iulio Firmico astrologo

Hiparco astrologo

31. Ragiel astrologo

Peccairic astrologo

Antiesis astrologo

Haomar astrologo

Messehala astrologo

Accebari astrologo

Vullelio astrologo

Iginio astrologo

Zephar astrologo

40. Sybilla Erithrea

41. Almeguerra astrologo

Alhasen astrologo

Zaradest astrologo

Alfayat astrologo

Alfadal astrologo

Atabari astrologo

Herdedi astrologo

Bianchino astrologo

Alfonsorege astrologo

Helisabeth regina astrologa

51. Plenio Romano astrologo

Pietro d'Abano astrologo

Ceco d'Ascoli astrologo

Ioanne de Monte Regio astrologo

Zacuto astrologo

Nufil astrologo

Albumadi astrologo

Hericos astrologo

Harzeth astrologo

Anticos astrologo

61. Conofil astrologo

Alhezen astrologo

Mahomath astrologo

Azaroni astrologo

Tisil astrologo

Hyrechindo astrologo

Noci astrologo

Alyhar astrologo

Merphil astrologo

Alazimini astrologo (double page)

71. Ioffie astrologo

Azarafat astrologo

Alhazel astrologo

Licha astrologo

Huck

http://trionfi.com

http://trionfi.com

### Re: Lorenzo de Spirito: Libro del Sorte

#27I understand now. In fact there are 63 astrologers and 11 sibyls, so 74x22 = 1628 responses.mmfilesi wrote:Sorry I cant explain better...

I try in spanish and then in English

Es literamente imposible que se vean 72 respuestas de los astrólogos. Desde las esferas SOLO podemos ver 1512 respuestas. Hay 72 a las que nunca se puede llegar.

***

72 cuestion of astrologi are inaccessible. You never can read it, because you only have 36 x 42 posibilities in the spheres.

But there are two wheels on each wheel page - one for the dice method, one for the hour method. They look identical, but I guess Fanti could have varied some of them. It would be tedious to catalogue and compare everything.

### Re: Lorenzo de Spirito: Libro del Sorte

#28If the "dice wheels" and the "hour wheels" are not identical in every case - although they appear to be - then there is room for many more responses.

Edited - no, even that is wrong. It is 42x36=1512, while there are 1628 responses. There are 116 responses more than necessary.

The only answer would be to go through each sphere and each of the 74 sibyls and astrologers, and see what is never used. It could be that Fanti just wanted to show off his poetry.

Edited - no, even that is wrong. It is 42x36=1512, while there are 1628 responses. There are 116 responses more than necessary.

The only answer would be to go through each sphere and each of the 74 sibyls and astrologers, and see what is never used. It could be that Fanti just wanted to show off his poetry.

### Re: Lorenzo de Spirito: Libro del Sorte

#29LOL! Megalol!

Its true... They are 74, Great job, friends!

And the misterious increasing, because in the introducction Fanti said are 72 astrologi:

Its true... They are 74, Great job, friends!

And the misterious increasing, because in the introducction Fanti said are 72 astrologi:

When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

### Re: Lorenzo de Spirito: Libro del Sorte

#30Well, I get ...

72 Rota symbols, each with 2 wheels (one with dice-results, the other with 21 hours) and each wheel leads to 21 results, and this gives, cause 2x21=42 ...

72 x 42 = 3024 (not 1512)

... so it's not necessary, that any of the 74x22=1628 astrological results stay not used. Naturally at least some of

the results would be used more than once.

But ... it seems, that after the Rota symbols anything goes to the 36 Spheres, and these have each 42 commands, which lead to the astrological answers, which actually have only 36x42 = 1512 results. Well, I understand the problem now.

It's a question, if there is anything in the rules in the beginning, which refers to the problem.

********

The 72 Rotas seem to have the following order with 3 central figures, 23. Sirene, 50.Dio Damore and 72. Fortuna

33 elements = 32 + 1 or 22+1+10

17 elements = 16 + 1

22 elements = 3x7 + 1

-----

1. Liofante

Camello

Giraffa

Panthera

Bufolo

Cervo

Cavallo

Asino

Dracone

Cocodrillo

Lupo

Porco Spino

Lepora (pig ?)

Capra (goat)

Cane

Scimia (monkey)

Lhidra (hydra)

Coniglio (rabbit)

Testudine (tortoise)

Rana (frog)

Balena (fish)

Delphino (dolphin)

Laquila (eagle)

Struzo (ostrich)

Griphone

Ciconia (crane)

Cigno (swan)

Equo volante (flying horse)

Pavone (paon)

Barbagianni (owl)

Gallo (cock)

33. Vespertiglione (bat)

34. Palma (palmtree)

Pino (pinetree)

Giglio (Lille)

Corona (crown)

Triangula (triangle)

Lira (Lyre)

Ara

Scala (stag)

Sagitta (arrow)

Bombarda (canon)

Balestra (crossbow)

Cepheo

Orione

Vulcano

Baco

49.Core (with heart)

51.Luxuria

Gulla

Avaritia

Accidia

Invidia

Sperbia

Ira

58. Grammatica

Rethorica

Dialectica

Arismethica

Musica

Geometria

Astrologia

65. Speranza

Charita

Fede

Prudentia

Temperantia

Fortezza

Iusticia

******

... well, I think, the Fanti theme deserves an own thread ...

72 Rota symbols, each with 2 wheels (one with dice-results, the other with 21 hours) and each wheel leads to 21 results, and this gives, cause 2x21=42 ...

72 x 42 = 3024 (not 1512)

... so it's not necessary, that any of the 74x22=1628 astrological results stay not used. Naturally at least some of

the results would be used more than once.

But ... it seems, that after the Rota symbols anything goes to the 36 Spheres, and these have each 42 commands, which lead to the astrological answers, which actually have only 36x42 = 1512 results. Well, I understand the problem now.

It's a question, if there is anything in the rules in the beginning, which refers to the problem.

********

The 72 Rotas seem to have the following order with 3 central figures, 23. Sirene, 50.Dio Damore and 72. Fortuna

33 elements = 32 + 1 or 22+1+10

17 elements = 16 + 1

22 elements = 3x7 + 1

**72 Rota**-----

**totally 33 animals (inclusive mythological animals)****22 (not winged animals)**1. Liofante

Camello

Giraffa

Panthera

Bufolo

Cervo

Cavallo

Asino

Dracone

Cocodrillo

Lupo

Porco Spino

Lepora (pig ?)

Capra (goat)

Cane

Scimia (monkey)

Lhidra (hydra)

Coniglio (rabbit)

Testudine (tortoise)

**- water? or not water ? probably water cause Sepher Yetzirah scheme 3 mothers + central element**Rana (frog)

**- water**Balena (fish)

**- water**Delphino (dolphin)

**- water****23. Sirena (half-human) - water****10 winged animals**Laquila (eagle)

Struzo (ostrich)

Griphone

Ciconia (crane)

Cigno (swan)

Equo volante (flying horse)

Pavone (paon)

Barbagianni (owl)

Gallo (cock)

33. Vespertiglione (bat)

**16 Star pictures (at least partly)**34. Palma (palmtree)

Pino (pinetree)

Giglio (Lille)

Corona (crown)

Triangula (triangle)

Lira (Lyre)

Ara

Scala (stag)

Sagitta (arrow)

Bombarda (canon)

Balestra (crossbow)

Cepheo

Orione

Vulcano

Baco

49.Core (with heart)

**50. Dio Damore****7 Vices**51.Luxuria

Gulla

Avaritia

Accidia

Invidia

Sperbia

Ira

**7 Artes Liberales**58. Grammatica

Rethorica

Dialectica

Arismethica

Musica

Geometria

Astrologia

**7 Virtues**65. Speranza

Charita

Fede

Prudentia

Temperantia

Fortezza

Iusticia

**72. Fortuna********

... well, I think, the Fanti theme deserves an own thread ...

Huck

http://trionfi.com

http://trionfi.com