Re: Lorenzo de Spirito: Libro del Sorte

#22
mmfilesi wrote:
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:The two dice are only rolled in the wheels with 21 results, step 4 of the consultation. This leads to the spheres page that tells you which Astrologer to turn to, and which number on the Astrologer.
Yes, but the spheres are 36 spheres, each with 42 directions (equal 1512) and the astrologers are 72, each with 22 answers: equal 1584!
I don't get your confusion. You roll the two dice to get a result in the wheel; you are directed to another one of 36 pages each with 42 new directions to 72 astrologers each with 22 answers. Obviously, there are 1512 unique answers, and 72 answers used twice.

You'd have to go through the spheres to see which they are - I haven't done that yet (do I have to?).
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Re: Lorenzo de Spirito: Libro del Sorte

#23
Sorry I cant explain better... :(

I try in spanish and then in English

Es literamente imposible que se vean 72 respuestas de los astrólogos. Desde las esferas SOLO podemos ver 1512 respuestas. Hay 72 a las que nunca se puede llegar.

***

72 cuestion of astrologi are inaccessible. You never can read it, because you only have 36 x 42 posibilities in the spheres.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: Lorenzo de Spirito: Libro del Sorte

#25
mmfilesi wrote:
Huck wrote:... :-)
... 36 x 42 = 72 x 21
and 72 x 21 is not = 72 x 22
... :-) ... naturally not, but a throw with two dice might have 22 possibilites ... counting the value "it didn't work" as one of the possibilities.

Fanti's book is big and complicated and written in a language, that I don't understand very good - so it's rather difficult to control, what Fanti really presented. Also I remember, that I met a similar confusion in a similar system ... don't ask me which, I don't remember.
So I assume, that it "somehow" is part of the game and not an error.

Actually the results with the throw of two dice is a sort of subsystem of the binary code 2^6, which has 22 results at "left" and 22 results at the "right" and 20 results for the "middle", whereby the 22 results of the "left" mirror the 22 at the "right", so you've actually 22 pairs and the 20 results in the middle are also 10 pairs. By this pairing process you transmute 64 units into 32 ... this mathematical scheme was used in the Sepher Yetzirah with its "32 ways of wisdom".
And the 22 pairs of "left" and "right" include 21 possibilities of the two-dice-results, but also a 22th "very dominant" element, written in binary form by the pair 111111 - 000000.

... more to this:

http://trionfi.com/tarot/new-themes/sepher-yetzirah/

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Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Lorenzo de Spirito: Libro del Sorte

#26
I've taken a look at the Sotzmann article, a longer German work about Losbücher, which also reports about Fanti's work:

http://books.google.com/books?id=vLMEAA ... er&f=false

It comes to 74 (!) astrologi and to 1628 answers (= 74x22), also he refers to two alternatives, either divination according "dice rolling" (21 possibilities) or according the "hour of the question" (which would then have 24 , or, if one block of 3 hours was reduced to 1, would have 22). Perhaps these alternative methods explain the difference in the final construction of the answers.

*********
I counted. Indeed it are 74 (one page - Alazimini 2 is a double copy). The first "Atlante delli astrologi principe" sounds, as if it is not a "real astrolog" ... :-) ... but then it would be 73 (which would fit somehow with 365 days for a year; 5x73 = 365). But each of the 74 units has 22 answers.

One is a an astrologa "Helisabeth Regina" ... it appears at the 50th place.

No. 6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22 + 28 + 40 are Sybils, totally 11 sybils

No. 6+8+10+12+14+16+18+20+22 is somehow similar to the pairing principle in the Boiardo Tarocchi poem (there are 2-4-6-8-10-12-14-16-18-20 and additionally 21 connected to women.

"22" (Tarot) + 28 (Montefeltro-system) + 40 (Minchiate) + 50 (Mantegna-Tarocchi) are system-numbers, which are known from other places.

It seems, that Fanti wished to express something with this form of sorting. "Atlante delli astrologi principe" would be a foolish element (0= Fool), 22 "Sybilla-Europa" would somehow express the function "World". Sybilla Amalthea reminds the foster-mother of Zeus. Sybilla Erithrea ... I don't know.

1. Atlante delli astrologi principe
Albategno astrologo
Dorothio astrologo
Abadon astrologo
Ptholomeo astrologo
Sybilla Persica
Haly astrologo
Sybilla Cumana
Azoroen astrologo
Sybilla Libyca

11. Beheco astrologo
Sybilla Tiburtina
Albumasar
Sybilla Delfica
Alphragano
Sybilla Samia
Alkindo
Sybilla Troiana
Alcabitio astrologo
Sybilla Frigia

21. Zael astrologo
22. Sybilla Europa
Hermete astrologo
Leopoldo astrologo
Thebit astrologo
Guido Bonato astrologo
Albubather astrologo
28. Sybilla Amalthea
Iulio Firmico astrologo
Hiparco astrologo

31. Ragiel astrologo
Peccairic astrologo
Antiesis astrologo
Haomar astrologo
Messehala astrologo
Accebari astrologo
Vullelio astrologo
Iginio astrologo
Zephar astrologo
40. Sybilla Erithrea

41. Almeguerra astrologo
Alhasen astrologo
Zaradest astrologo
Alfayat astrologo
Alfadal astrologo
Atabari astrologo
Herdedi astrologo
Bianchino astrologo
Alfonsorege astrologo
Helisabeth regina astrologa

51. Plenio Romano astrologo
Pietro d'Abano astrologo
Ceco d'Ascoli astrologo
Ioanne de Monte Regio astrologo
Zacuto astrologo
Nufil astrologo
Albumadi astrologo
Hericos astrologo
Harzeth astrologo
Anticos astrologo

61. Conofil astrologo
Alhezen astrologo
Mahomath astrologo
Azaroni astrologo
Tisil astrologo
Hyrechindo astrologo
Noci astrologo
Alyhar astrologo
Merphil astrologo
Alazimini astrologo (double page)

71. Ioffie astrologo
Azarafat astrologo
Alhazel astrologo
Licha astrologo
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Lorenzo de Spirito: Libro del Sorte

#27
mmfilesi wrote:Sorry I cant explain better... :(

I try in spanish and then in English

Es literamente imposible que se vean 72 respuestas de los astrólogos. Desde las esferas SOLO podemos ver 1512 respuestas. Hay 72 a las que nunca se puede llegar.

***

72 cuestion of astrologi are inaccessible. You never can read it, because you only have 36 x 42 posibilities in the spheres.
I understand now. In fact there are 63 astrologers and 11 sibyls, so 74x22 = 1628 responses.

But there are two wheels on each wheel page - one for the dice method, one for the hour method. They look identical, but I guess Fanti could have varied some of them. It would be tedious to catalogue and compare everything.
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Re: Lorenzo de Spirito: Libro del Sorte

#28
If the "dice wheels" and the "hour wheels" are not identical in every case - although they appear to be - then there is room for many more responses.

Edited - no, even that is wrong. It is 42x36=1512, while there are 1628 responses. There are 116 responses more than necessary.

The only answer would be to go through each sphere and each of the 74 sibyls and astrologers, and see what is never used. It could be that Fanti just wanted to show off his poetry.
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Re: Lorenzo de Spirito: Libro del Sorte

#30
Well, I get ...

72 Rota symbols, each with 2 wheels (one with dice-results, the other with 21 hours) and each wheel leads to 21 results, and this gives, cause 2x21=42 ...

72 x 42 = 3024 (not 1512)

... so it's not necessary, that any of the 74x22=1628 astrological results stay not used. Naturally at least some of
the results would be used more than once.

But ... it seems, that after the Rota symbols anything goes to the 36 Spheres, and these have each 42 commands, which lead to the astrological answers, which actually have only 36x42 = 1512 results. Well, I understand the problem now.

It's a question, if there is anything in the rules in the beginning, which refers to the problem.

********

The 72 Rotas seem to have the following order with 3 central figures, 23. Sirene, 50.Dio Damore and 72. Fortuna

33 elements = 32 + 1 or 22+1+10
17 elements = 16 + 1
22 elements = 3x7 + 1


72 Rota
-----
totally 33 animals (inclusive mythological animals)

22 (not winged animals)
1. Liofante
Camello
Giraffa
Panthera
Bufolo
Cervo
Cavallo
Asino
Dracone
Cocodrillo
Lupo
Porco Spino
Lepora (pig ?)
Capra (goat)
Cane
Scimia (monkey)
Lhidra (hydra)
Coniglio (rabbit)
Testudine (tortoise) - water? or not water ? probably water cause Sepher Yetzirah scheme 3 mothers + central element
Rana (frog) - water
Balena (fish) - water
Delphino (dolphin) - water

23. Sirena (half-human) - water

10 winged animals
Laquila (eagle)
Struzo (ostrich)
Griphone
Ciconia (crane)
Cigno (swan)
Equo volante (flying horse)
Pavone (paon)
Barbagianni (owl)
Gallo (cock)
33. Vespertiglione (bat)

16 Star pictures (at least partly)
34. Palma (palmtree)
Pino (pinetree)
Giglio (Lille)
Corona (crown)
Triangula (triangle)
Lira (Lyre)
Ara
Scala (stag)
Sagitta (arrow)
Bombarda (canon)
Balestra (crossbow)
Cepheo
Orione
Vulcano
Baco
49.Core (with heart)

50. Dio Damore

7 Vices
51.Luxuria
Gulla
Avaritia
Accidia
Invidia
Sperbia
Ira

7 Artes Liberales
58. Grammatica
Rethorica
Dialectica
Arismethica
Musica
Geometria
Astrologia

7 Virtues
65. Speranza
Charita
Fede
Prudentia
Temperantia
Fortezza
Iusticia

72. Fortuna

******

... well, I think, the Fanti theme deserves an own thread ...
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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