Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:It was Romain Merlin, a French historian of playing cards, who first gave descriptive titles to all the Minchiate cards, in his 1859 article Origines des cartes à jouer (published in 1869 as a book)
http://books.google.com/books?id=rq_QiR ... 22&f=false

see page 32

He invented the titles "Grand Duke", "Western Emperor" and "Eastern Emperor". In all previous sources about Minchiate, these cards are just Papa II, Papa III, and Papa IIII.

Papa II looks a little feminine, so it seems he is just slightly removed from being the Empress. Papa IIII (La Nora in our poem) was then probably a secularization of the Pope. But our author did not do this - the inventor of the Minchiate did.

Its strange.

In page 32, he said her titles "Grand Duke", "Western Emperor" and "Eastern Emperor"...
But in the images... (pag. 191)

a Queen or a King?

a Emperor
a ???????????????

This is a design of 1725.

Card 4 has the globe with star, Card 3 with eagle, Card 2 has no additional symbol.

Merlin presents Card 3 and 4 with exchanged symbols.

See this and a few other editions:
http://trionfi.com/m/d05113.htm
http://trionfi.com/m/d05114.htm
http://trionfi.com/m/d05115.htm
http://trionfi.com/m/d02057.htm

... ... it's interesting to follow the crowns.

Nr. 2-3-4-5 ... the Papi.

Nr. 16 Hope, which always looked like a star.
Nr. 36 Star
Nr. 39 World
Nr. 40 Fama.

mmfilesi wrote:Very interesting, thanks Huck!

In your opinion, when is made the Leber Deck?

... that's a complex theme ... .-)

Perfect, thanks Huck. I need analyze this. These crowns are very strange. Seem crowns of Papa seem, not crowns of Emperor.

mmfilesi wrote:Perfect, thanks Huck. I need analyze this. These crowns are very strange. Seem crowns of Papa seem, not crowns of Emperor.

... ... I think, that you shouldn't think to complicated, we're in a card game.

The versicole ... we don't know much rules of the early Minchiate. But most of these crowns belong either to the Papi (and I would say, that means "fathers" and not Popes) or the Arie, cards, which are used for the versicole system. The only exception is 16 Hope, which is not a Versicole card in the later known rules, but might have been in earlier rules, cause it is the "lowest card of row 16-35" (so something like a second Pagat or Bateleur in the Minchiate), which easily one might have had special function.

A usual game character feature would be a mirroring principle.

36 star - with crown + 5 (with crown)= 41
37 moon - no crown + 4 (with special crown = 41
38 sun - no crown + 3 (with special crown) = 41
39 world - with crown + 2 (with crown) = 41
40 Fama - with crown + 1 (with turban) = 41

So we see thee, that moon and sun are mirrored by the special crowns.

Also one should see, that something had happened in Bologna in 1725 with Trionfi cards ... why was this deck just made in the same year?

There we have:

3. Gr Duke Cosimo III of Tuscany (1670-1723), *14.8.1642, +31.10.1723; m.Florence 20.6.1661 Marguerite-Louise d'Orléans (*28.7.1645 +17.9.1721)

* K1. Ferdinando III, Hereditary Prince of Tuscany, *9.8.1663, +31.10.1713; m.Munich 21.11.1688 Dss Violante Beatrice of Bavaria (*23.1.1673 +30.5.1731)
* K2. Anna Maria Louise, *Florence 11.8.1667, +Florence 18.2.1743, bur there; m.5.6.1691 Kfst Johann Wilhelm von der Pfalz (*19.4.1658 +18.6.1716)
* K3. Gian Gastone Grand Duke of Tuscany (1723-37), *Florence 24.5.1671, +Florence 9.7.1737 - last male member of the family; m.Düsseldorf 2.7.1697 Dss Anna Marie Franziska of Saxe-Lauenburg (*13.6.1672 +Reichstadt 15.10.1741)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Maria ... -Lauenburg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gian_Gasto ... of_Tuscany

So we have it to do with this somewhat drunken person ...


and his sister-in-law, "dull and ugly", as her husband saw her:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violante_of_Bavaria


I would assume, that it was she, who took influence on this deck, perhaps with the intention to moderate her drunken brother-in-law to some more convenient behavior.

Yes .. Try to summarize the problem.

what happened with the popes and the pope in some families of tarot in the catholic countrys?

A. Tarocchino Bolognese

a.1. Really changed in four popes or was just a way to nominate these cards? If changed, when and why was it?

a.2. If we discarted the myth Montieri, when and why changed in four Moretti? It was by the influence of Roman tarot?

a.3. What's happen whith the two pope of Mitelli tarot?

B. Roman tarot

b.1. When the Sultan began to use?

b.2. What was in place of Popess (a eunuch, a vizier, another Sultan a Sultana)?

C. Minchiate

c.1. What had drawn exactly in the minchiate arround 1725? A king and two popes? A Grand Duke and two emperors?

c.2. When and why happens this change?

D. Others cuestions

d.1. Does this relate to (possible) bishop of the Cary sheet?

d.2. Why Piscina said:

È seguano nel ordine delle figure doppo il pazzo & il Bagatto, Imperatori e Papi intesi per ì gran Prencipi non chèssi siano pazzi e matti [...]

whitout papissa?

d.3. Why in Discorso Anonimo:

«Seguono due Papi, uno col Regno et l’altro senza et doppo questi L’Imperatore, et il Re, che sono le due supreme dignità; nello spirituale Cardinale et Papa, nel temporale Re et Imperatore».

-------------------------

I would assume, that it was she, who took influence on this deck, perhaps with the intention to moderate her drunken brother-in-law to some more convenient behavior.

This sounds interesting, but the deck Etruria are court cards or cards popular?

... ... this are a lot of questions, and luckily I don't feel responsible to answer the questions about things after 15th century too much.

In other articles I've already taken the position, that Minchiate was noted 1466-1471-1477 and that the Lorenzo Spirito text creates the impression, that something with a 4x20 structure already existed in the 1470's - 1480's.

Movements after 1500 become less controllable, as the creative activity exploded by printing industry. A lot of things could happen and "be similar" without causal relation. A sultan here, a sultan there and another somewhere else might mean nothing, or just only "a generally popular motif".

Generally I think it's wise to leave 16th century aside, as long 15th century hasn't turned to become more precise.

For 1725 I think, that it jumps in the eyes, that the Medici changed the ruler in 1723 ... and also it happened something in Bologna at the same time. What's the relation there?
And generally it would nice to know all motifs (surviving playing cards) and publications about Germini and Minchiate at one place and well organized, so that it helps to have an overview. Is this really the first Minchiate, that we know of?

btw.

Have you noted by Giordano Berti
http://www.tarot-as-tarocchi.com/1.pdf

Yes... is a confused soup

And generally it would nice to know all motifs (surviving playing cards) and publications about Germini and Minchiate at one place and well organized, so that it helps to have an overview

Ok. After I begin the topic Collection Minchiate

++

thanks by article of berti

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:He [Romain Merlin) invented the titles "Grand Duke", "Western Emperor" and "Eastern Emperor". In all previous sources about Minchiate, these cards are just Papa II, Papa III, and Papa IIII.

Singer (p. 241) calls them in his own description - what reason is unknown - Juggler (I), Empress(II), Emperor (III) and Pope (IV) and Love (V).
Likely we simply don't know all earlier sources. Merlin might have heard the expressions from somewhere ("oral tradition").
We have these older Imperatori and Imperiali notes and really can't say precisely, what might have been behind them.