Re: "The 5x14 Theory: An Investigation" part II

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Thanks Huck.

Yes, yes ... this is strange. There are two interesting letters:

a) One is that it sends to the treasurer of Cusago in 1425. In this letter says that Agnes should not ever leave the castle. If Filippo had never made love with Agnese, he are preocupated about adultery? I dont know.


b) Then there is another letter. Has dated 30 October 1429. The letter asks the emperor, if not legitimate son or daughter, the emperor must recognized Bianca Maria as Duchess of Milan. He already knows he will not have more children? And then there are rumors that he is gay (Lol, I see the emperor's card and I guess a gay sauna).

I think Filippo Maria (who is not stupid) believe Bianca his her daugther. His her trionfi, her Visconti's Glory
Last edited by mmfilesi on 29 Apr 2010, 13:09, edited 1 time in total.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: "The 5x14 Theory: An Investigation" part II

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jajasj jajajsjajjajaa.... :p

Its true, its true...

But, there is something important. Visconti always need soldiers. There are no secrets in court. If he asks the Emperor Bianca becomes duchess if he don't have legitimate children, and if Saboy know it (sure know), then he lost the soldiers of Savoy. It is a very risky bet. I can explain this in English, sorry. Its too hard. But I think, really, that Filippo made love with Agnes and Bianca was her daughter.

But forget that. Imagine it's all a farce, another theatre by the king of theatre. Its not important. The concept is the same. That is:

He have much contact with Germany. (Soldiers, ambassadors ...).

In Germany are the hunt cards (and many others). Filippo loves the hunt and love play. With a German hunt's deck we can hunt and play cards... perhaps women hunted.

Then we have chess. And we have a chess with similar allegory of the Virgin hunt. For example, in Les exchecs < ¡And in this poem the heart of the beloved are turtledoves!

Well... this is another cuestion, I'll try later. Now I want to discuss a date of 1425. (My English prehistoric prevents me say two things at once)

Now can imagine Filippo in 1423. Every people said its a strange man. He dont have son. Oh! the duke of Milan its gay, said her enemys. I guess that is his great humiliation. He didnt have children, is not a real man (a Macho Man, in spanish :p ). It is a world where even the Pope have children, and Filippo, the ugly, dont have children ... its not easy being gay in 1400.

But, arround 1424-1425 he have (fictial or not, is not important) one daughter. Its a very good date for a deck with de virgin's hunt that protagonist.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: "The 5x14 Theory: An Investigation" part II

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Filippo Maria Visconti made a famous prisoner in Juli ca. 1424, Agnese becomes pregnant around this time. The prisoner was Carlo Malatesta.

http://www.condottieridiventura.it/tabe ... a/1420.htm
1424:
ZAGONARA – luglio
Visconti: 4000 cavalli, 4000 fanti; fiorentini: 8000/9000 cavalli e 2000/3000 fanti. Durata: 5 ore. Scontro tra due cavallerie pesanti sotto una pioggia dirotta che colpisce di traverso i fiorentini (stanchi peraltro per una lunga marcia) quasi accecandoli, mentre i viscontei l’hanno alle spalle. I milanesi incominciano a ritirarsi portando i fiorentini su un luogo paludoso dove sono disfatti da Angelo della Pergola. Secondo i calcoli del Morelli i fiorentini perdono 5000 cavalli e 2000 fanti; per l’Albizzi 2600 cavalli; per l’Ammirato ed il Cambi 3200 cavalli e tutti i bagagli. I fiorentini subiscono un danno valutato sui 300000 scudi.
(Between the prisoners Carlo Malatesta as military leader of the Florentine army)
Carlo had educated Parisina Malatesta and there's a connection between Parisina (who is still living then) and playing cards (she appears in 3 documents since 1422). It somehow seems possible, that Parisina made playing cards acceptable (or popular) in Ferrara. Likely she already knew their use from the Malatesta court.

http://trionfi.com/0/d/13

Carlo had been an important man at the council of Constance, he arrived with the duty, to abdicate for one of the 3 current popes. As everybody wished the popes to abdicate, Carlo had a pleasant duty. German playing card behavior should have been more relaxed about playing cards than Italian behavior (more prohibition), also there were more freedom in questions of nakedness and in matters of sexuality. And the council became rather important for the distribution of different styles of music.

A lot of Italians traveled to Constance and were impressed by these differences between Southern and Northern culture.
Carlo imported Dufay, a Northern musician (ca. 1420). Filippo Maria made tolerant playing card laws (known since 1421). The conservative reaction (San Bernardino) started to preach against modern developments in 1417.
Luxury playing cards reached prices (in Ferrara 1423, in Milan with the Michelino deck), which before or later never were paid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_I_Malatesta
http://trionfi.com/0/m/64/

Carlo became prisoner in July and was treated with high honors and all respect, finally he even got presents (released ca. April 1425).
Similar behavior we know from Filippo Maria Visconti only in 1435, when Alfonso of Aragon had become his prisoner. At this later occasion it's known, that playing cards were used. We don't have such a declaration for the visit.

Filippo Maria had in this time (1424/25) a war with the emperor Sigismondo, which ended in an arrangement of peace also around April 1425. So the celebrations in June 1425 had more than one reason.

*****************

Filippo Maria himself knew playing cards sine his youth (according Decembrio). Filippo had been 3 years old, when a Milanese delegation arranged in Prague, that Giangaleazzo got the duke title in 1395 from King Wenzel. Wenzel paid a high prize for this, as this decision caused much trouble in Germany and finally stranded in the condition, that Wenzel was abdicated as King of the German Emperor in the year 1400.

Johannes of Rheinfelden knew in 1377 a deck with 60 cards, 10 number cards and 5 court cards for each suit. In structure this deck mirrored the Michelino deck with (likely) also 60 cards, 16 trumps + 4 kings (= 20 court cards) + 4x10 number cards.
In Bavaria (West of old Bohemia) and the Riesengebirge (North of old Bohemia) a game is known called Schafkopf (at least since ca. 1700), in which Ober and Unter (or Queen and Jack) are used as trumps, but the Kings are not trump.
A similar trumping rule seems to have existed in the time of 1432 near Strassburg, when Master Ingold wrote his "Guldin Spil". The proposed rule has internal logic, if one assumes Ober and Unter as marshalls (the way, in which Johannes of Rheinfelden perceived them) and as military leaders (according this the military leaders were trumps), but the Kings just rule in their kingdom (their suit).

The 60 cards of Johannes 1377 had been (very probable) a court deck, the number cards were designed as professions (similar to the chess pawns). Similar motifs reappeared ca. 1455 in the deck of Ladislaus posthumus, the 15 years old king of Bohemia (though then shortened to a 4x12-deck). From the political conditions of 1377 (the Bohemian court was dominant, Emperor Charles IV. still lived) it seems probable, that Johannes saw a version of the Bohemian court deck.

And likely also Giangaleazzo saw the Bohemian court deck, when his delegation returned successful from Prague in 1395. And this or some decks of a similar structure stranded as education decks in the youth of Filippo Maria Visconti. And Pier Candid Decembrio knew about them, as his father Uberto had been part of the delegation.

Filippo Maria knew the structure of the deck, but changed the content. The dominant marshalls (in Italy they would have been condottieri) disappeared, instead "gods" took the trumping function.

So there's not really a problem, where Filippo Maria got his "16" from. But possibly he got a favor for the number 16 in his early years.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: "The 5x14 Theory: An Investigation" part II

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:)

a) If I were Visconti, and if I want someone pregnant my lover, I would choose a stranger and then cut his head so he could not talk.

b) The presence of Malatesta' is another reason to explain the origin of the deck arround 1425, not the Bianca Maria. As Huck says, if you want play cards (or chess) you need someone. (This is a very good observation, thank. Huck).

c)
Filippo Maria had in this time (1424/25) a war with the emperor Sigismondo, which ended in an arrangement of peace also around April 1425. So the celebrations in June 1425 had more than one reason.
:) Yes, yes...

...............

Well, go to chess... ~o)

I need to summarize many things to see if I understand.
Johannes of Rheinfelden knew in 1377 a deck with 60 cards, 10 number cards and 5 court cards for each suit.


we have a probable example of this deck with the Hofamterspiel, or?


(I write too the Andrea's traslation in italian, its to easy understand to me that germany language).


Court:

König - re
Königin - regina
Hofmeister - maggiordomo [old ober]
Marschalk - maresciallo [old under]

4 x 4 = 16

10 (=Banner) = Lost

1 x 4 = 4

Pip cards (1/9):

profession character

(Artzt, Kammer[mei]ster, Narr...)

9 x 4 = 36

1 (=Ace) = Lost

1 x 4 = 4

20 + 40 = 60.

Its ok?

Then, you said:
Kings (unnumbered) = King
Queens (unnumbered) = Queen
Hofmeister (all 10's) = Rook
Marshalls (all 9's) = Knights
Jungfrauwe (all 6's) = pawns
Fools (Narr) (all 1's) = Bishops
But where are the profession :-? ? where are Cessolis?

In any case, this is very complicated. The possibilities are endless. For example:

a1 - 10 (=Banner) = Lost
a2 - Hofmeister - maggiordomo [old ober]
a3 - Junckfrawe - dama di compagnia
a4 - Königin - regina
a5 - König - re
a6 - Fools (Narr)
a7 - Marschalk - maresciallo [old under]
a8 - 10 (=Banner) = Lost

And then we can distribute the other professions in the pawns trying to fit Cessolis.

In any case, I believe this is not very important. It is very difficult to prove the exact relationship between the deck of the court, chess and Cessolis, but overall, it seems clear that they are related.

********

I read the Trionfi's theory about Guldin Spil - chess. Now i can't find in the labrinto's Trionfi :) but I think its correct.

well, we have at least two decks in relation with chess. Two german decks. The relation betwen Milan and Germany are very strong. Its not only the single persons meet in the Council of Constanza, but too ambasador, soldiers, trade...

********

I think its correct opinion Trionfi, Filippo loves chess. (Lol! its the godfather :) ) and I think its correct too the theory's Trionfi about Cary and chess (only have doubts with the cards lost. I need a fool and a wheel of fortune).

But, what's happen with Michelino Deck and chess? we can work about it?
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: "The 5x14 Theory: An Investigation" part II

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mmfilesi wrote::)
Johannes of Rheinfelden knew in 1377 a deck with 60 cards, 10 number cards and 5 court cards for each suit.


we have a probable example of this deck with the Hofamterspiel, or?
No, but it seems plausible to assume, that the Hofämterspiel developed from the John of Rheinhausen game. Between the not many decks of 14th/15th century, from which we can say, what sort of structure they had, there we have two, which deal with professions (as the Cessolis chess), one is clearly from Bohemia, and the other has as background the condition, that it might come from Bohemia. From both we may conclude, that they had been court decks - professions as number cards were naturally expensive.

The major differences:

JvR-deck:
60 cards
5 courts
suits: old riches

Hofämter:
48 cards (it became generally usual to have 48 cards in Germany)
6 courts, from which 4 were also number cards (1 Fools, 6 Junckfrauwe, 9 Marshalls, 10 Hofmeister), totally 24 cards / the rest are different professions, from which only the trumpeter appears twice (so 23 different professions).
suits: modern kingdoms (Bohemia, Hungary, Germany, France)
Then, you said:
Kings (unnumbered) = King
Queens (unnumbered) = Queen
Hofmeister (all 10's) = Rook
Marshalls (all 9's) = Knights
Jungfrauwe (all 6's) = pawns
Fools (Narr) (all 1's) = Bishops
But where are the profession :-? ? where are Cessolis?
Cessolis had professions as representatives of the 8 pawns in the chess books. 8 professions, of course. Here is for instance one of the merchants:

Image


Here is the Hofämterspiel:
http://trionfi.com/m/d00360.htm

Image


In any case, this is very complicated. The possibilities are endless. For example:
It's not so complicated.

Cessolis used professions for the pawns.
The JvR-deck used professions for the number cards.
The Hofämterspiel variated the JvR-idea.
But neither JvR-deck nor the Hofämterspiel showed interested to transfer the Cessolis profession selection in detail - at least I don't see this.
In any case, I believe this is not very important. It is very difficult to prove the exact relationship between the deck of the court, chess and Cessolis, but overall, it seems clear that they are related.
Yes, creative variations about a common idea - as far the professions are concerned. In the court cards it's different. JvR and Hofämter are clearly related.

JvR .... Hofämterspiel

King ... King
Queen ... Queen
Marshall Ober ... Hofmeister
Marshall Unter ... Marshall
Maid .... Jungfrau
------------------------
New in Hofämter: Fool

-----------------------------------
And JvR should have seen

King = Chess king
Queen = Chess queen
Ober = Chess Rook
Unter = Chess Knight
Maid = Chess bishop

-----------------------------------
But Hofämter should have interpreted

King = Chess king
Queen = Chess queen
Hofmeister = Chess Rook
Marshall = Chess Knight
Fool = Chess Bishop
Junckfrauwe = Pawns

I read the Trionfi's theory about Guldin Spil - chess. Now i can't find in the labrinto's Trionfi :) but I think its correct.
http://trionfi.com/0/mi/00/
... but the article is old and not up-to-date
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: "The 5x14 Theory: An Investigation" part II

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mmfilesi wrote:After reading fewl books, I think the correct chronology is:

May 16> giovanni assassinated (probably by agent's Filippo)

A few days later> Facino died and Filippo marries his wife

¿? > Take Milan

June 16th, saint Gulietta, was named Duke.

....

For example:

http://books.google.es/books?id=gGs5AAA ... da&f=false
All what I know, Filippo Maria had been under control of Facino Cane, so hardly had opportunity to attack his brother's life. And the brother Giovanni was more or less also under control of Ficino Cane.

Storia di Milano likely has some access to Milanese documents. They say, that he was made duke at 22th of June, and that Filippo attacked Milan at 16th of June. Why not?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: "The 5x14 Theory: An Investigation" part II

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a) I dont understand very well, sorry.
But Hofämter should have interpreted
...
Junckfrauwe = Pawns
But, the pawns are not the profesion?
Cessolis had professions as representatives of the 8 pawns i
b) I dont know John of Rheinhausen game. Sorry.

c)
... but the article is old and not up-to-date
You dont think any more thats its correct?:
* Ackermann - is a corner figure (rook)
* Weinman - knight
* Wirt - bishop
* the Riffian is the King
* the Toypel is the Queen
* Pfaff - bishop
* Wuchrer - knight
* Degraded Edelman - is a corner figure (rook)
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: "The 5x14 Theory: An Investigation" part II

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mmfilesi wrote:a) I dont understand very well, sorry.
But Hofämter should have interpreted
...
Junckfrauwe = Pawns
But, the pawns are not the profesion?
... :-)
Ladislaus had been in Italy 1452, 12 years old. The Italian Trionfi decks had a version, in which "virtues + Love" (a lot of Junckfrauwe) were the pawns (Cary-Yale). The Hofämterspiel was made ca. 1455.
Ladislaus met Galeazzo Maria (8 years old; spring 1452). ... .-) ... the PMB was on its way to be produced.

The Junckfrauwe have Nr. 6 in the Hofämterspiel. They are in the mid between all the professions (2-5 and 7-8 in the Hofämterspiel).
I dont know John of Rheinhausen game. Sorry.
It is as I described it ... as far it is known to me. It is promised since various years, that a translation is "in work", but it doesn't happen. So the probably small passage, in which the professions are described, is not known. It would be nice to get at least one copy of the original versions to clarify the most important questions.
http://trionfi.com/0/p/10/


You dont think any more thats its correct?:
* Ackermann - is a corner figure (rook)
* Weinman - knight
* Wirt - bishop
* the Riffian is the King
* the Toypel is the Queen
* Pfaff - bishop
* Wuchrer - knight
* Degraded Edelman - is a corner figure (rook)
Well, it's interpreted as a satire on chess-figures with the Toypel (a whore) as Queen and the Riffian (a pimp) as King. This seems plausible. Ackermann (farmer) and "degraded nobleman" (messenger, player) appear in Cessolis at same (pawn) position and also the Wirt (innkeeper). The Pfaff (priest) is in harmony with the bishops idea. Vine-trader and "Wuchrer" as knights ... that's a little strange, but it is a satire, so why not?

It all is given by the ranking, that is given by Ingold, so it seems justified.
Huck
http://trionfi.com