Trionfi.com: News and Updates

Dummett, Decker, Depaulis, Kaplan; here we document the people, places, and events that shaped Tarot History. (Credentials not required; but references, citations, and substantiating evidence may be requested at the door.)

Trionfi.com: News and Updates

Postby Huck on 02 Sep 2009, 07:12

hi,

Various deep changes in the representation of the Tarot Museum - the work took two monthes

http://trionfi.com/m/ - Tarot Museum, now with integrated Compare Function and deck lists

http://trionfi.com/i/ - Tarot card Iconography section

http://trionfi.com/i/tarot-andrea-vitali/ - Tarot Iconography articles by Andrea Vitali - now with all 22 cards and with an Mouseover effect for easy access of the pictures

http://trionfi.com/i/mantegna-tarocchi/ - Mantegna Tarocchi Iconography

and some more

... even with Trionfi music in the background ... :-) ... if you desire
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deck of 1790, remake

Postby Huck on 06 Sep 2009, 20:08

On a market for used things I found a remake (1998) of an old Tarot deck from ca. 1790, together with a book of not much worth in German language. I paid 4 Euro for both. Researching the web for it, I found that it is variously offered for not much money, especially by German amazon.
Peter Ortmann is the author of the book, the deck is called "das lombardische Tarot", but actually it's a sort of Tarot de Marseille deck made in Trieste, Fabrica di Angelo Valla, similar to
..
http://trionfi.com/m/d00586.htm
http://trionfi.com/m/d02062.htm
..
these decks. The original is in Deutsches Spielkartenmuseum.
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Re: Trionfi.com: News and Updates

Postby robert on 09 Sep 2009, 14:31

Lucky you, Huck!

I'd love to have an original deck sometime. In decks like this, I'm always amused by the Wheel of Fortune where you can see how the figures on the Wheel have become very distorted over time, and the tail of the figure on the left has become a flame!

Compare the Dodal:
Image

To one similar to your deck:
Image

And other similar ones:
Image
cavete deos
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Re: Trionfi.com: News and Updates

Postby Huck on 09 Sep 2009, 16:38

At amazon.de I found others with the lowest price of 3.50 Euro, but they demand 15 Euro for transport to oversea destinations. That's really a bad joke ...

The originals ... the originals were Greek-Roman gods, weren't they? ... :-) ... in Cologne there was a Kölsch original Tarot, which knew Empress Agrippina on the position of the "World" and the Kölsch Bur at another cards and all the other strange Tarot motifs. The nice things with the Tarot cards are their variations.
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Re: Trionfi.com: News and Updates

Postby Huck on 15 Sep 2009, 12:46

Still in an experimental form has developed

http://a-tarot.eu

an installation to build a new Tarot and Playing Cards News system.

A first article is there ... "Tarot at youtube (2009)", which might take some of us hours and even days. Of special interest should be ...

"Secrets of the Playing Card : Decoding the Past"
A 45-minute TV-report with many interesting and otherwise unknown cards and the participation of some card researchers, between them David Parlett and Thierry Depaulis

The 8th link from the top

... but all the others are surely also not known by everybody
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Re: Trionfi.com: News and Updates

Postby debra on 16 Sep 2009, 08:31

Thank you, Huck. I have been looking at your site. Always I find something interesting!
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Re: Trionfi.com: News and Updates

Postby Huck on 19 Sep 2009, 22:38

Thanks Debra.

Another new and probably fabulous tool has developed for the researchers market ... it looks like this:

Image

The humble opinion of an early Tarot researcher is of 1887 and it was found here ..

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr ... 94669FD7CF

... and this was found trying this page

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?as ... od&btnG=Go

which is a new archicve function of Google-News ... and it promises to have articles, which go back till 1860.

For the moment it seems to be a worthful improvement ... .. iiih ... :-?? :ymsick:
..... well ... a longer look gets the result, that many of the older articles are badly scanned (very much misreadings) and some of the newspapers wish to have money for the use. So more like a real Beta-Version and at least for the older articles this is disappointing. But it might be really good for the newer developments.
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Re: Trionfi.com: News and Updates

Postby Huck on 06 Oct 2009, 09:23

Recently (yesterday) I posted to Aeclectic:

*****************************************
[QUOTE=Huck]Well ....

to give an example, and you'll see, that it is a scandal, a scandal of bad information structure inside the system. And the victim is you, as you simply don't get up-to-date-informations.

Stuart Kaplan produced in 1978 his Encyclopedia of Tarot, a good-selling book, which later created the base for the internet culture, in which history of Tarot was discussed in finest details by some enthusiasts of the theme "History of Tarot".

Inside Kaplan's book he made 2 short entries, of DECEMBRIO (9 lines) and ISABELLA DA LORRRAINE (6 lines), page 26, in which he gives some informations, one about Decembrio noting a 1500 ducatos deck made for Filippo Visconti and the other about a letter, which was received by Isabella da Lorraine, which contained some information about a deck with 16 gods.

In 1989 the old-games-researcher Franco Pratesi published in the Playing Card Journal an article, in which he told, that he simply revisited the original document and discovered, that both entries do refer to the same object, a deck with the price of 1500 ducatos, made by Michelino da Besozzo, with an accompanying manuscript describing the deck made by Marziano da Tortona and the whole thing was thought out and commissioned by Filippo Maria Visconti.

Franco Pratesi published half Italian, half-English. That made it difficult for English readers to understand the message.

When Internet started (1995/96)', the information of Pratesi wasn't around, the discussions, which often were about "origin of Tarot" went on and on without mentioning his discovery. Later Tarothermit made at his internet-page a relatively short note about it - it stayed more or less hidden, wasn't discussed really and - of course - wasn't understood in his meaning.

Well - it definitely is about the oldest Tarot deck known. One should assume, that there is an enormous interest in Tarot circles at such an object. It isn't. People simply don't realise, what's before their nose.

1. The oldest deck, not really, but a fairly good description.

2. the oldest accompanying book, the first "Tarot book"

3. the oldest description, how the game was played

4. A letter with lots of interesting details and in it a passage, from which it becomes clear, that the term "ludus triumphorum" (= Trionfi) which was thought earlier to refer to common Tarot decks with 22 trumps or 21 trumps + Fool, in 1449 not necessarily was used to hint to decks with this structure.

Now we do write 2003, 25 years after Kaplan and 14 after Pratesi's discovery. The whole thing is still rather ignored and a lot of people are still fishing in the dark.

Especially the above mentioned point 4 clearly points out, that there is a deep error about that, what researchers do believe as the "original state of Tarot".

Compare:

http://geocities.com/autorbis/marcello1.html
http://geocities.com/autorbis/pbm14new.html

and if you wish to discuss about it (of course we also enjoy it, if you decide to discuss it here, it's a nice place and we're interested that people get facts in their heads instead of blind assertions, we're especially interested in a good information structure inside the world of Tarot):

http://geocities.com/autorbis/LTarot.html[/QUOTE]

The post was written in July 2003, now more than 6 years ago and it was one of my first contributions, at least I would guess, it was the first important one (well, I don't know for sure, but it's more or less at the end of the list of my articles, perhaps later I'll detect an earlier).

The Tarot History Forum had then maybe 1200 articles and it existed only 2 groups in the History section, later it was changed to 5. The other existing group was the Tarot de Marseille Forum, which had a little more posts, if I remember correctly.
The "scandal" mentioned in the article had been meanwhile improved considerably, the "Michelino deck" (a term, which we invented, a common expression was then Besozzo deck, but that's the name of a city, so we called it Michelino to signify the painter) is now known at least in inner circles of the Tarot-World. The starting page of the section had last month 737 calls, and the navigation-file (only once during a session) noted 350, single text pages ranged about 140 till 10 (the article has about 30 of them) in a month. Considering this in the length of 6 years with 72 monthes a lot of people should have seen something of it, not counted other publications like for instance the contributions to this forum and Ross' translations published at the IPCS-organ ... at least those, who had some interest, were able to find it.

The 5x14-theory has also taken its way.

Trionfi.com has manifested as a major site for Tarot history in the web and it's not only the articles to Michelino deck and 5x14-theory which had opened new doors. In July 2003 we were still in the phase of our humble beginnings and still worked at our free geocities domain, which will be killed this month, cause yahoo will end this service.

So there was a progress ...

... well, not all things are perfect. Still there is opportunity to improve, but it's not our matter all alone.

Now I'm at about 1660 posts to the Forum, from which should have gone according rough estimation about 1500 (or ca. 90%) to this part of the forum, "Historical Research", so from 11220 of the moment about 1/7 is from me. And my posts were often very long and took many hours.

Well, time to collect the pearls.

[ Link removed by Moderator ]
********************************************************

My part I wrote yesterday.
I didn't write this "[ Link removed by Moderator ]" and found it today

.. actually this link is very harmless. It's just the start of the collection of my posts.

http://a-tarot.eu/huck/opinions/
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Re: Trionfi.com: News and Updates

Postby robert on 06 Oct 2009, 16:12

Huck wrote:The Tarot History Forum had then maybe 1200 articles and it existed only 2 groups in the History section, later it was changed to 5. The other existing group was the Tarot de Marseille Forum, which had a little more posts, if I remember correctly.
...

Now I'm at about 1660 posts to the Forum, from which should have gone according rough estimation about 1500 (or ca. 90%) to this part of the forum, "Historical Research", so from 11220 of the moment about 1/7 is from me. And my posts were often very long and took many hours.


Hi Huck,

I'm not sure what was removed by the moderator, but reading your post reminds me of how indebted we all are to JMD for creating the history forum on AT in the first place; and if 1/7 of the posts are from you, I suspect that Ross, Steve, JMD, Lorredan, and several other members here probably make up a great deal of the rest of those posts.

Looking back on the past several years, it really does feel like we've come a long way, doesn't it? And yet, I feel there are many things we have yet to discover, and in many ways I find myself returning to the same old questions again and again.
cavete deos
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Re: Trionfi.com: News and Updates

Postby Huck on 06 Oct 2009, 16:53

robert wrote:
Huck wrote:The Tarot History Forum had then maybe 1200 articles and it existed only 2 groups in the History section, later it was changed to 5. The other existing group was the Tarot de Marseille Forum, which had a little more posts, if I remember correctly.
...

Now I'm at about 1660 posts to the Forum, from which should have gone according rough estimation about 1500 (or ca. 90%) to this part of the forum, "Historical Research", so from 11220 of the moment about 1/7 is from me. And my posts were often very long and took many hours.


Hi Huck,

I'm not sure what was removed by the moderator, but reading your post reminds me of how indebted we all are to JMD for creating the history forum on AT in the first place; and if 1/7 of the posts are from you, I suspect that Ross, Steve, JMD, Lorredan, and several other members here probably make up a great deal of the rest of those posts.

Looking back on the past several years, it really does feel like we've come a long way, doesn't it? And yet, I feel there are many things we have yet to discover, and in many ways I find myself returning to the same old questions again and again.


Well, there was some disturbance before ... the usual type of moderator's backstage decisions, which caused escalating trouble, and naturally also participating my own stubborn way to deal with them, so, as you know me. All formed by the RULES, which doesn't allow an open critique in moderator's direction ... and which are the slow and boring ruin to a once nice, at least functional, place.

It's necessary, that authors build a sort of guild against such ruining rules ... they might be justified as necessary tools for the usual Forum user, in the case of Tarot historians the matter looks superfluous as an old pair of shoes ... to say it an harmless form.
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