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Re: Council of Constance

Posted: 13 Sep 2020, 15:25
by Ross G. R. Caldwell
Busch clears up earlier scholarship; he says that the Chronica Danielis was probably made for the Della Torre family, not the Visconti, and that the identity of Inglexia is unknown, but that Fiamma conflated it with Angleria.

Re: Council of Constance

Posted: 13 Sep 2020, 15:48
by Huck
I found a list, which speaks of Lombardian kings. I expected actually, that there would be a higher number of congruent entries to the Visconti list (as presented at Trionfi.com). However, there are only very few.

HISTORY OF THE LANGOBARDS
(Historia Langobardorum)
by Paul the Deacon (Paulus Diaconus)
Translated by William Dudley Foulke, LL.D.
Published 1907 by the University of Pennsylvania
http://www.thule-italia.org/Nordica/Pau ... BEN%5D.pdf
The list is at page 3/47 ...
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Actually I detect only "37 Desiderius" identical to Desiderius, the last Lombard king and possibly 36 Agistulfus identical with Aistulf (sic) 4 places above the position of Desiderius on the Lombard king list. So my earlier consideration was somehow wrong ....

Re: Council of Constance

Posted: 13 Sep 2020, 16:14
by Ross G. R. Caldwell
.RACHIS. REX.
Hic Rachis rex fuit Longobardorum, tribum annis post sponte relinqueris regnum cum vxore et filijs ueste monachali est indutus. iacet Papie in sancti Maria de Cacijs.

[10v]
.AGISTVLFVS. REX.

Hic Agistulfus rex Longobardorum, maximam familiaritatem habuit cum pipino rege franchorum. iacet Papie in sancto Marino. ibique multa corpora sanctorum honorifice condidit.

.DESIDERIVS. REX.
Hic Desiderius ultimus rex Longobardorum. cccm sarracenorum deuicit. Adrianum papam et Karolum magnum ab eorum obsidione liberauit, captis ex eis. xxij. regibus.et. Lxxm. eorum cesis.
Agistulfus = Aistulf
Rachis = Ratchis

Cestelletto inverts their order, but these two are also in the genealogy.

Re: Council of Constance

Posted: 13 Sep 2020, 17:03
by Huck
HISTORY OF THE LANGOBARDS, page 47/47
http://www.thule-italia.org/Nordica/Pau ... BEN%5D.pdf
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Yes, you're right, there are 3 identical names. The change of Aistulf to Desiderius appears all in the year 756.

Desiderius
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderius
Born in Brescia, Desiderius was originally a royal officer, the dux Langobardorum et comes stabuli, "constable and duke of the Lombards," an office apparently similar to the contemporaneous Frankish office of dux Francorum. King Aistulf made him duke of Istria and Tuscany and he became king after the death of Aistulf in 756. At that time, Aistulf's predecessor, Ratchis, left his monastic retreat of Montecassino and tried to seize the kingdom, but Desiderius put his revolt down quickly with the support of Pope Stephen II. At his coronation, Desiderius promised to restore many lost papal towns to the Holy See, in return for the papacy's endorsement of his claim. Conflict with the Holy See under Pope Stephen III arose, for Stephen opposed Charlemagne's marriage to Desiderius' daughter.
Aistulf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aistulf
Aistulf (also Ahistulf, Aistulfus, Haistulfus, Astolf etc.; Italian: Astolfo; died December 756) was the Duke of Friuli from 744, King of the Lombards from 749, and Duke of Spoleto from 751. His reign was characterized by ruthless and ambitious efforts to conquer Roman territory to the extent that in the Liber Pontificalis, he is described as a "shameless" Lombard given to "pernicious savagery" and cruelty.
Ratchis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratchis
Ratchis (also spelled Rachis, Raditschs, Radics, Radiks; died after 757) was the Duke of Friuli (739–744) and King of the Lombards (744–749).

Re: Council of Constance

Posted: 13 Sep 2020, 17:44
by Ross G. R. Caldwell
For how the Langobard connection became forged with the Visconti family, read Areli Marina, "The Langobard Revival of Matteo il Magno Visconti, Lord of Milan," I Tatti Studies in the Italian Renaissance, 2013 -
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/673405

Re: Council of Constance

Posted: 16 Sep 2020, 02:24
by Huck
I don't get this text. I got Busch, which is a nice text.
https://digi20.digitale-sammlungen.de// ... 00001.html
page 227
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As far I can see it, Busch comes to similar ideas as myself for Anglus, Angera, Brutus and Inglexio.

Do you know this:
Theatrum Triumphale Mediolanensis Urbis Magnalium, Annalistica Proportione Digestum
Salvator Vitale
Malatesti, 1642
https://books.google.de/books?id=o7NTAA ... us&f=false

The text has the pair "Elimach+Gemebundus" (see trionfi.com list) connected to a year number "annum mundus", likely for the year "X" after creation of the world. The author variously refers to "Chron. Flamma".
I searched the author name "Vitale" in the Busch text ... negative. "Theatrum" ... also negative.

Re: Council of Constance

Posted: 16 Sep 2020, 09:46
by Huck

Re: Council of Constance

Posted: 17 Sep 2020, 09:55
by Ross G. R. Caldwell
But is there any such Urvater for "England"?

They wanted Brutus for Britain, but England comes along later that classical times, from the Angles. Maybe that tribe derived itself from some mythic father, but I haven't come across it.

Starting searching on wikipedia - "Bede states that the Anglii, before coming to Great Britain, dwelt in a land called Angulus, "which lies between the province of the Jutes and the Saxons, and remains unpopulated to this day."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angles

But no Urvater by that name - "According to Anglo-Saxon legends recounted in Widsith and other sources such as Æthelweard (Chronicon), their earliest named ancestor was a culture-hero named Sceaf, who was washed ashore as a child in an empty boat, bearing a sheaf of corn."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kings_of_the_Angles

It seems improbable to think no one ever connected Anglus with the Angles or English peoples, but evidence remains elusive.