Council of Constance

#1
Source: Das Konzil von Konstanz und Ungarn (... council of Constance and Hungary 1415-1418)
by Forschungsgruppe "Ungarn im mittelalterlichen Europa" Universtität Debrecen (2016)
Article by Péter E. Kovács: Imperia im Imperium. Unterhaltung und Spektakel auf dem Konzil von Konstanz. (p. 107-129)

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/78474556.pdf

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The emperor Sigismund gives the order at 7th of October 1417, that nobody shall play with cards or other items in Constance till the new pope is elected. The order was distributed in the churches of Constance.

The references lead to the chronik of Ulrich von Richental
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich_von_Richental
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich_of_Richenthal
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Council of Constance

#3
Well, Sigismund definitely wished to finish the council.

Playing cards appear only once in the same text of the same author. He tells us, that he was disappointed, that he didn't find much about a lot of topics, which belong to the normal daily life (card playing belonged to them in his opinion). So ... possibly there are no other notes, although it seems clear, that card playing was a common interest at the council.


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Otherwise: For the context of the council I remember, that Baldassare Cossa, once pope as Giovanni XXIII (1410-1415), as prisoner played with his prison-keeper (according a note, which I don't find in the moment). I assume, that this happened in Heidelberg 1416, where Cossa attempted for a second time to escape from prison (and the prison-keeper was drowned for this).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Council of Constance

#4
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Kaufhaus in Konstanz, which was the place, where the pope Martin V. was elected
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The following text is from modern literature (2015), made according documentary evidence (at least in parts and hopefully the text of November 7, 1417, is more or less correct). The literature text reports, that there was a German, Latin and an Italian text. The pope was elected at the day of St. Martin, November 11, He was installed as pope at November 14.
Der Koch der Hübschlerinnen: Die Gelegenheiten des Fred Keller, Teil 2, Teil 2
Georg Steinweh, neobooks, 06.12.2015 - 128 Seiten
https://books.google.de/books?id=D87xCg ... el&f=false

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It was not a month later, but only 4 days.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Council of Constance

#5
Huck wrote:
01 Sep 2020, 02:38
Source: Das Konzil von Konstanz und Ungarn (... council of Constance and Hungary 1415-1418)
by Forschungsgruppe "Ungarn im mittelalterlichen Europa" Universtität Debrecen (2016)
Article by Péter E. Kovács: Imperia im Imperium. Unterhaltung und Spektakel auf dem Konzil von Konstanz. (p. 107-129)

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/78474556.pdf

The emperor Sigismund gives the order at 7th of October 2017, that nobody shall play with cards or other items in Constance till the new pope is elected. The order was distributed in the churches of Constance.

Nice find Huck.

Certainly interesting in light of previous discussions about Eugene and court being resident in S. Maria Novella/Florence when tarot first emerges, as it seems clear from that reference that the ecclesiastical class - which had plenty of down time - played cards. Why wouldn't they have taken notice of a new type of deck that emerged in their midst? The socio-political context is, of course, the Church militarily allied to Florence against F. Visconti and exiled Florentines.

In light of all that, I continue to posit that tarot was conceived of with an eye regarding that alliance...and to say it again, an argument as to why the Theological virtues, later found in Milan in the CY, were there from the beginning in Florence, for this very reason. They were replaced at a later date by one who did not have any sort of alliance with the Church - F. Sforza.

The military outcome of that alliance was celebrated by both Florence and the Church:
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Anghiari Dublin detail.JPG
(77.29 KiB) Not downloaded yet
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Notably the Theological Virtues are treated monumentally in the heart of Florence in the intervening period between the Council of Constance and Anghiari, in Donatello and Michelozzo's Tomb of Antipope John XXIII (c. 1425 - 1430) in the Baptistery, paid for by the same man who brought the current pope, Eugene, to Florence.
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A c. 1435 cassone by dal Ponte celebrating all seven virtues in Florence, thus in the same intervening period leading up to the emergence of tarot:
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That we would have a c. 1441 early tarot deck in Milan featuring all seven canonical virtues, but only the Cardinal virtues in Florence, flies in the face of all the contemporary evidence in Florence (and there is plenty more evidence of the fetishizing of all seven virtues monumentally in Florence; e.g., the Loggia dei Lanzi).

To the point: Pratesi has shown the state's regulation of cardplaying in the period right before the emergence of tarot, so employing a new deck of cards in a propagandist manner would be wholly unsurprising, extrapolating an assumed popularity among the local masses; to produce such a deck that was also inclusive of the allied and resident Pope is somewhat unsurprising as well, but especially if it flattered them in some ways, which arguably the Theologicals do (they are associated with a pope in the baptistery, not the commune). This additional notice that the prelates were already busily playing cards at a council (and the Florence church council just precedes tarot) supports this thesis.

Phaeded

Re: Council of Constance

#6
Phaeded wrote:
04 Sep 2020, 18:29
Certainly interesting in light of previous discussions about Eugene and court being resident in S. Maria Novella/Florence when tarot first emerges, as it seems clear from that reference that the ecclesiastical class - which had plenty of down time - played cards. Why wouldn't they have taken notice of a new type of deck that emerged in their midst? The socio-political context is, of course, the Church militarily allied to Florence against F. Visconti and exiled Florentines.
Nice to meet you again. Ross feared, that you had disappeared.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1842

The scene happens in Southern Germany North of the Alps and it's the council of Constance, rather an unusual place and time and very different to normal Italian situations.
German laws about card playing should have been generally more tolerant than the Italian. And the council at Constance had probably something of the daily Rüdesheim or the Ballermann of Mallorca or the Reeperbahn in Hamburg. One cannot conclude from the clergy-behavior during the council 1414-18 on the normal Italian situations for the clergy. Likely one can conclude, that the extreme behavior of the council participants caused, that San Bernardino started his prohibition activities in Italy since 1417 and this became a long enduring factor.

Nonetheless I don't mind the idea, that in the early development of Trionfi decks the 7-virtues-idea played a role. Actually I think, there were more variants of Trionfi decks as we know. The number of the decks, that we indeed know of 15th century, is simply to small to give us a full picture or 80 % of it and probably even to small to give us 50% or 20% or even 10%.
For the 7-virtues-idea we simply have the Cary-Yale and this is evidence enough, it is there and the Cary-Yale is among the oldest things, that we have.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Council of Constance

#8
Huck wrote:
05 Sep 2020, 07:33
Phaeded wrote:
04 Sep 2020, 18:29
Certainly interesting in light of previous discussions about Eugene and court being resident in S. Maria Novella/Florence when tarot first emerges, as it seems clear from that reference that the ecclesiastical class - which had plenty of down time - played cards. Why wouldn't they have taken notice of a new type of deck that emerged in their midst? The socio-political context is, of course, the Church militarily allied to Florence against F. Visconti and exiled Florentines.
The scene happens in Southern Germany North of the Alps and it's the council of Constance, rather an unusual place and time and very different to normal Italian situations.
German laws about card playing should have been generally more tolerant than the Italian. ...One cannot conclude from the clergy-behavior during the council 1414-18 on the normal Italian situations for the clergy.
The time, place and reason of a council would hardly affect how one spent one's leisure time. Even the local laws could hardly matter less - cards are a small portable item and I seriously doubt the prelates personal possessions were being screened at wherever they were being lodged. The bottom line is it was common enough among the prelates to invoke a ban on it until the more serious business of the pope was resolved.

So your theory would have the card-playing prelates go cold turkey on card-playing - even though all that was called for was a temporary cessation. If the Franciscan Bernardino - and Franciscans in general tended to be regarded as a radical fringe in this period - mattered that much why wasn't there a call for banning card-playing for good among the church elites who showed up at this council? The prelates preferred their cards to Bernardino's preaching (the prelates also ignored the Franciscan emphasis on poverty).

And there were plenty of Italians there, so your emphasis on "north of the Alps" is besides the point:

An innovation at the council was that instead of voting as individuals, the bishops voted in national blocs. The vote by nations was in great measure the initiative of the English, German, and French members. The legality of this measure, in imitation of the "nations" of the universities, was more than questionable, but during February 1415 it carried and thenceforth was accepted in practice, though never authorized by any formal decree of the council. The four "nations" consisted of England, France, Italy, and Germany, with Poles, Hungarians, Danes, and Scandinavians counted with the Germans. While the Italian representatives made up half of those in attendance, they were equal in influence to the English who sent twenty deputies and three bishops.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Constance

Re: Council of Constance

#9
I sometimes wonder if Marziano attended Constance. There is no record of him in 1415 at all.

He was a witness to an act of fealty to Filippo Maria in Milan on 5 November 1414, and we don't see him again until 17 February 1416 in Milan, when is a witness to an extension of Filippo Maria's truce with the Marquis of Monferrato.
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Re: Council of Constance

#10
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
05 Sep 2020, 18:48
I sometimes wonder if Marziano attended Constance. There is no record of him in 1415 at all.

He was a witness to an act of fealty to Filippo Maria in Milan on 5 November 1414, and we don't see him again until 17 February 1416 in Milan, when is a witness to an extension of Filippo Maria's truce with the Marquis of Monferrato.
Pietro Lapini da Montalcino, father of Bernardo di Montalcino was in Constance as a physician of Pope Giovanni XXIII. In 1418 (or 1417?) he appeared in Milan and stayed in the service of Filippo Maria a very long time. He was acquainted with Marziano.
Pietro Lapini da Montalcino era stato medico dell’anti-papa Giovanni XXIII, ossia del cardinale Cossa, ma deposto dal Concilio di Costanza nel 1415. Due anni dopo il Lapini si spostò al servizio di Filippo Maria, per il quale svolse missioni diplomatiche, ma per lo più rimase a Pavia dove insegnò nel locale Studio.
http://www.storiadimilano.it/Personaggi ... omaria.htm

Added: Are other Milanese delegates to the council known?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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