Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

Another note to Carlo Malatesta ...
Antonia Malatesta of Cesena , also known as Antonia Malatesta of Rimini , was the daughter [1] (or possibly the niece [2] ) of Carlo I Malatesta, Lord of Cesena, Fano, Pesaro, and Rimini. To help ally himself with the House of Malatesta, Giovanni Maria Visconti, the Duke of Milan married Antonia in the city of Brescia [1] [3] in 1408. They had no issue. [4] After Giovanni Maria’s assassination in 1412, the succeeding Duke of Milan, Filippo Maria Visconti, permitted Antonia to continue sharing the governance of the duchy for a few months. [5] Although she soon retired to Cesena, she retained her title, Duchess of Milan.

According ... =malatesta
.... Antonia was the daughter of Andrea Malatesta, not of Carlo Malatesta.

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

Huck wrote:
28 Oct 2019, 19:42
about the pupillo problem.
your suggestion had been also my idea about these foreign passages, which are not old text notes, but have a modern date.

2 days ago I changed my opinion about it, and I got the idea, that the "pupillo" expression meant Filippo Maria Visconti. Mainly, cause this Pupillo was in the texts a person without any name.
The background to this type of usage is modern historiography, starting with Aristide Arzano (I believe) which emphasizes Marziano's presumed role as teacher of Filippo Maria from 1409 (when he had left Gregory XII's service). Decembrio notes in chapter 62 that Giovanni da Thiene was his childhood tutor in moral education, and that his core curriculum in literature consisted of the sonnets of Petrarch. His Latin was poor, which implies that he had no consistent schooling through adolescence, i.e. after his father's death, during his days of leisure and hunting in Pavia. By the earliest time Marziano could have begun reading Dante with him, he would already have been at least 17.

Barzizza portrays him as exceptionally close to Filippo, as a wise counsellor, but one could suspect that this is just normal hyperbole. But this role sounds more ad hoc, informal discussions on various intellectual topics, rather than fixed lessons.

Thus there is little basis on which to build a picture of Marizano as a formal teacher of Filippo Maria. The role he did play in Filippo's intellectual life was filled by Gasparino and later Guinforte Barzizza.

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

Phaeded wrote:
28 Oct 2019, 19:36
did you ever get a hold of this work: Monica Azzolini, The Duke and the Stars: Astrology and Politics in Renaissance Milan, Harvard University Press, Feb 11, 2013
Spends a good deal on Visconti early on as well as his library in Pavia for astrological texts. Does make me wonder why Marziano would have made up a game in this astrological environment but does not really play up the astral associations of the seven relevant gods. The answer must be the M. Capella source of the 16 divisions of the sky (ultimately based on Etruscan divination), reconnected to Ovidian myths - it seems Marziano was trying to present an archaic "Golden Age" proto-history of the cosmos and gods before astrology came to the fore (perhaps with the odd notion in understanding the gods' primal nature/impulses one could better understand the astrological ramifications).
No, it's one of those I have overlooked for years.

Yes, there are no overtly astrological-zodiacal or planetary doctrines. Diana is emphasized as the Moon. Of course, there is no Saturn at all (except a passing mention as father of Juno). Whatever Marziano's astrology consisted of, he was not preeminently known for it, since neither Barzizza nor Decembrio mention it. Whoever told Marcello about him knew that about him, though. Maybe he was more of the scientific type of astronomer, and helped Filippo with understanding Dondi's clock (Vita chapter 68; it was kept in Pavia, but Decembrio implies that Filippo kept informed of what it showed with regards to the planetary motions).

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
29 Oct 2019, 06:47
Phaeded wrote:
28 Oct 2019, 19:36

Finally, it looks like this long overdue book is available: Lives of the Milanese Tyrants, Pier Candido Decembrio, Translated by Gary Ianziti ... 0674987524
I got my copy nearly three weeks ago! I've posted you a private message about it here, don't you see it?
Hey Ross - I get messages so infrequently I seldom even think to look there, and just remembered to see if the book was available, so mine's still in the mail. Regarding this part of your note:
"[Ianziti] clearly does not know of the Polismagna/Carlo di San Giorgio translation for Borso d'Este. He doesn't list it among the translations on page 317, and he doesn't allude to it anywhere. I am quite sure he would have noted it had he known of it, and he will be disappointed to find out he was ignorant of its existence. ... ?ID=216813 folios 27r-71r"

Well, I've only reached out to him before over a very trivial subject he was kind enough to have responded. But I don't want to insult him and I'm not sure if additional editions are in the offing (its not like I Tatti is the home to best-sellers), so not sure what he'd do with this. I certainly have other things I want to bug him about so maybe I'll mention it in passing then (perhaps he can post an on-line errata via his academia homepage? ; Perhaps of interest to you, Ianziti has this uploaded there: ... _Biography - German publication, but English text - sorry Huck ;-).

At all events, I did find mention of Polismagna and Carlo di San Giorgio in this poorly scanned (by Google) 1904 work: Dukes & Poets in Ferrara: A Study in the Poetry, Religion and Politics of of the fifteenth and early sixteenth centuries, By Edmund Garratt Gardner - p. 84. See especially note 2.
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Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

I have a note to that page (I bought a used copy of Gardner years ago) which says "1918 Bertoni changed his mind." I'll have to find the reference.

In any case, it is accepted now that Carlo di San Giorgio used the pseudonym "Polismagna" (all of his references at the Modena Estense library, for instance). And it is also neither here nor there, for our purposes.

Re: What are the documents for Marziano's dates?

Ross: This is rather off-topic, but since you brought it up I have to ask about your comment:
Since Scipio said Isabelle would like these triumph cards, it seems she did not have them in Provence. So, since she had been almost five years in Naples, it is safe to assume this game was not known there yet by 1440. This conclusion is unremarkable, since the earliest reference to the game in Naples is still only in 1473.

But it is more remarkable that René himself spent the summer, July, August, and early September 1442 in Florence, when we know that the game existed and was known there. But René did not bring Isabelle a pack of Triumph cards on his return to Provence. So what can we make of that? Maybe René was too busy to play cards, or maybe he was not much of a card-player himself and took no notice of such games. This could be part of the reason why Marcello addressed his gift to Isabelle, and not to René himself, in 1449.
Scipio is telling Marcello this in 1450. I do not see how anything follows about Isabelle's knowledge of trionfi in Naples 1435-1440. I also do not see how you can conclude that she did not have them in Provence. Perhaps she would be happy to get another pack. Perhaps over the years some of the cards of her previous pack got lost or damaged. I think it is safe to infer that such packs were not readily available in 1450 Anjou (yes, another unremarkable conclusion). Also, since Marcello says nothing about the unremarkable triumph pack he is sending her, I would guess that he assumes that she already knows how to play the game. It would even seem that he is assuming that the sumptuous deck he has procured is used to play the same game, even if there are different subjects on the trumps and differently composed suits, since he does not comment on the rules, just the subjects. I also do not think we can infer that her husband wasn't interested in the game. From what I've read, he was just there trying to get Florence's support for his return to Naples and getting the cold shoulder; so he would have had a lot of time on his hands. If she knows the game, perhaps she learned it from her husband, and that he did bring her a pack in 1442 or so. If so, by 1450 she could surely use a second one.

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